Most of the higher level Furman units have separate outlets for different uses. Seems to work well. I have the 15i as well, and everything goes into it. Lighting is a very real deal here in CO and surge protection is a must. I simply don’t trust direct into the wall. I do plan to do a whole house surge protection soon.
Power conditioner or outlet?
I have a Shunyata MPC-12a power conditioner. Read that it was a good choice for audio equipment so I bought it. I also have high end power cords to all my equipment, as well as to my Shunyata.
I have recently read comments from listeners that you should plug your amp/preamp straight into the wall. Is that the case if you have a good power conditioner? I will do so if it is a better option, just concerned about no surge protection for the amps...but also don't want degraded sound! I am asking this because I am a newbie at all this, more money than audio sense. I am interested if anyone might have any experience in this
I have recently read comments from listeners that you should plug your amp/preamp straight into the wall. Is that the case if you have a good power conditioner? I will do so if it is a better option, just concerned about no surge protection for the amps...but also don't want degraded sound! I am asking this because I am a newbie at all this, more money than audio sense. I am interested if anyone might have any experience in this
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QUOTE : easola01 OP142 posts10-05-2018 1:48pmVair68robert.....wow, complicated! For me at least. I don't understand all of that, you have obviously invested a great deal of research in coming up with all this. What I think I do understand is I should invest in these ps audio harvesters in addition to my power conditioner? This would improve sound...is that right? Easola01 : Install a surge protector at the breaker panel, and use whatever power conditioner sounds good to you. Schneider Electric makes a compact surge protector, and Home Depot now carries them. They retail for about 90.00 to 120.00. Better to catch the surge before it gets into the house. The ones in the house will be secondary in effectiveness. |
I have two dedicated 20 amp lines for my equipment. I plug everything direct into those Furutech outlets. I plugged in an iFi AC iPurifier which claims to have surge protection as well as noise cancellation, all for $99. So amp, dac and streamer and then the iFi takes up all four plugs. I had a Furman 15i but got tired of the boxes and wire clutter and went for simplification as I never found it had any effect good or bad. If the iFi does not work and equipment gets fried, I consider it a good excuse to get new equipment. I feel the same way about my power tools, I love when I wear them out because then I can upgrade :) |
kalali1,949 posts10-02-2018 4:52pm"it’s not so much the voltage that’s critical, but the current, and no simple voltage regulator can increase the available current - it’s the law of conservation of energy." Sorry, I probably need a refresher on my EE but I thought one of the reasons folks invest in high quality power cords, dedicated circuits, or even care about high quality power supplies - both internal to the gear or external, was to avoid a drop in supply voltage as the gear, particularly high power amplifiers, draw current during peak demands as well as control sagging voltages during these swings. Which part of the Ohm's Law am I missing? You are missing total circuit impedance. You cannot add current without a regenerator/ sine wave creating unit, and they are large and expensive. |
In my experience, plugging the Amplifier into the wall delivers more clarity and dynamics; have to say is not subtle, it's noticeable in my system. However, I'm not sure how much surge protection my Amplifier's fuse and built-in protection circuit -given it has one- could provide.
I wonder if there is an affordable product that could protect your equipment from surges without altering the current/signal. |
Hi , did you upgrade the Outlets ? I have a Richard Grey unit and Silnote cords . But I also installed Hubbell medical grade gold plated outlets . I was amazed at how cheap the existing ones were . They utilized a spring push in system . The Hubbell’s put the “Death Grip “ on my cords . If I ran big SS amps , I would go straight to the wall. Cheers , Mike . |
easola01 Yes any connection that creates a complete circuit path from an outlet through equipment to another outlet is a potential carrier of lightening. WiFi is fast enough to create a local area network so if your equipment doesn’t have WiFi built in you can get a router that will receive the signal and pass it via LAN. It’s easy to set up and what I’ve done to isolate the router coax connection and the rest of the equipment. Don’t want to think about setting it up? Use an Apple Airport system and visit the ‘set up help’ on their Airport Utility for Mac or PC which walks you through it. If you have more experience you can do it with non Apple products. The newer products will work on “ac” networks which are screaming fast or older ones will have 5G or “n” networks which are fine for passing audio, the network utility app is super easy to use. All Apple routers also transmit audio signals via lossless SPDIF. Just plug a 3mm SPDIF adaptor into the headphone jack and you’ve got a lossless audio WiFi router system. For those of you that asked about the sound differences in adding a PS 15. The low end is richer, the system is pin dropping quiet, having the perfect sine wave power with a large pool of current waiting to be used lets everything breath and open up. The highs are clearer and midrange more expansive. Good luck, Steve |
easola01 Yes surprisingly we heard an improvement in sound quality when adding PS audio noise harvesters to a system with a Furman power conditioner, 2 minimum , I really liked when when we got up to # 5 ( I thinking of a few more ) I do not have a power conditioner or AC regenerator . stringreen When I was trying the Green Wave , Audio Prism and PS Audio noise harvesters I had unplugged everything in the house and one at a time I would plug one of those filters in where my refrigerator was plugged in and listen . This is how I determined that the Green Wave was best being plugged into the outlets with motors . As for the PS noise Harvesters , They are only on my circuit that supplies my stereo and for me they improved the sound and when my furnace motor runs the lights go crazy " eliminating " the noise . Ozzy great idea , covers everything for surges . Happy Friday Homemade Pizza night Rob |
Vair68robert.....wow, complicated! For me at least. I don't understand all of that, you have obviously invested a great deal of research in coming up with all this. What I think I do understand is I should invest in these ps audio harvesters in addition to my power conditioner? This would improve sound...is that right? |
easola01 Like every tread that asked for others experience you'll receive every side of a rubik's cube full of opinions . So here is my side and my opinion , until recently most power conditioners could not handle the high current of power amps so plugging them into the wall was recommended , which is where I plug my amp into . I have an isolation transformer that I plug my turntable , phono preamp and CD player into , an isolation transformer eliminates DC voltage and separates the ground from neutral . I do not have a power conditioner , I went a different way . I have all my electrical equipment plugged into Tripp-Lite Isobar surge protectors , Refrigerator, TV system , Deep Freezer , computers and Clock Radios ( I read where they are very noisy ) . Years ago I had my stereo equipment plugged into one when my house lost the neutral feed , all I had was 2 x 120 lines entering the house , turn a light and bang . We lost a refrigerator , clock radios and a toaster but my stereo system was saved AND Tripp-lite sent me a new Isobar , they have " isolated " outlets , they filter between outlets so I am cleaning some of the noise before it gets onto the houses AC. I also have 5 PS Audios noise harvesters on the circuit that my stereo system is on , as well as Green Wave filters on the circuits with motors like the refrigerator and deep freezer , and AudioPrism Quite Line noise filters on any circuit that does not have a Green Wave on it. One misconception some have is that if you have a dedicated power line that you are eliminating noise from other sources in your house , all that does is allow for fast current draw and no problems with connections . I read another post about an electrical panel of 200 amps only being able to pass 200 amps , the ratings are for constant draw , a powerful amp on a 20 amp circuit could have instantaneous demands for 50 or more amps without tripping the breaker in the panel . You could buy one power conditioner or you could try to protect everything in your house as well cleaning the electrical noise at the sources , theoretically everything should operate a little better , I know the TV systems seem to look and sound a little better . And after moving the 3 different electrical noise cleaners around and finding how each one produced different effects I have a very clean sounding stereo system . All together my little separates cost less that $750 . Good Luck Rob P.S. I had taken my PS Audio Noise Harvesters over to my friends house, we plugged them in one at a time into both his Furman power conditioner and just the wall outlets ( before and after the incoming current on the AC line ) . The most improvement was heard when using all 5 that I have plugged into an outlet strip that was plugged into the outlet that his power conditioner was plugged into . So even with a quality power conditioner you can improve your sound with other " filters " that are non-invasive . |
First of all I would question how many people can tell the difference between one very good power cord and another. Second,If you share power with others and it’s not a dedicated line your own going to get a lot of stuff you don’t want in your system that will affect the sound. From other equipment like appliances in the home. With no protection from surges. I have had all the best power conditioners on the market my last one was an Audio Quest Niagara 5000 thay all have a tendency to chock the power of my Pass Lab amps. Just switched to PS Audio Power Plant 15 BEST Decision I ever made good luck |
If you want to understand the problem of contaminated power and how to clean it up, I suggest you study the information presented here. https://www.equitech.com/lifting-the-grounding-enigma/ |
I recently had my projector and video processor fried by an electrical strike because I had items plugged into their own outlets for all the reasons stated above. I’ve moved to an active lightening area with frequent brown outs and power surges when it storms. The electrician told me the lightening traveled through my cable coax, killed my cable receiver, through my video processor via HDMI, into my projector via hdmi and out the wall outlet killing all cords and equipment in the path. Yes I had expensive “surge protectors” on all of it. He said that there was an “in” and “out” for the lightening to travel. The best way to discourage lightening to limiting the paths it can travel and rarely hits items plugged into one outlet and not having a way for it to go through equipment to another grounded outlet. With that being said I have started streaming my cable over WiFi, bought a Perfect Wave PS 15 after a lot of research to protect everything as it is a power regenerator and makes up for power sags and stops power surges. It is awesome to have all my equipment start up with a single click and in the order I need. I have discovered that when watching movies the current draw from my Pass sub amp in loud bass transients will cause a system shutdown. So I plug that amp into its own outlet and remove it after listening. Yes it is a pain but it works and I have a ton of equipment plugged into the PS 15 which you can see in my profile including two other amps and subs. The PS 15 shows live current usage and I’m not even close to max with everything else even at concert volume but it’s pretty crazy the amount of current the Pass amp can draw so I totally understand the manufacturer recommendations to plug directly into the wall. I also use the app “Weather Bug” and unplug the entire system (2 plugs with the amp) when a storm is coming as it also shows if there is lightening in the area. I can’t afford for another strike to do more damage than it did. As far as sound quality and projector image quality it has improved quite a bit with the PS 15 which was a surprise and bonus but not my primary goal in acquiring it. I reason that it is due to cleaner power . . . It is quite dirty here where I live so again this improvement would depend on your power supply grid. I know first hand how much clean power affects sound and image from my early days getting into audio visual. I moved into an old apartment in Chicago and couldn’t listen to music due to the hiss of dirty lower or watch the projector because of a pulsing image. I bought a good quality power conditioner and it was all resolved so those who say it doesn’t work haven’t had a problem to begin with in my opinion. Just a little bit of practical experience I’d thought I’d share. Good luck! Steve |
Power conditioners / regenerators , capacitance based passive and active I’ve tried a few over the decades with high expectations that they will do something however most did not live up to the claims and in fact some had detrimental effects that were not immediately noticed . Even though I use dedicated lines and went the route of direct out of the wall i went back to a passive design last year using a Akiko Audio Corelli which actually worked as claimed and was by far the best I’ve experienced however this time after a home trial return policy. The Akiko Corelli could be replaced and I think it will be by the new active design from Germany , Inakustik Reference 3500p AC conditioner. |
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denon1 I think there are some power conditioners like Audioquest Niagara range or Shunyata Denali that have the technology that makes power amps sound better plugging them in by providing more current.They provide more current than what? To provide more steady state current than would be available direct from the wall outlet, you'd need a generator, not a simple power conditioner. It's the conservation of energy law. |
Yes I have a whole house surge protector. Then I have dedicated circuit, and then the shunyata with surge protection as well. But it seems the best approach is to plug in power amp directly into outlet, then all other components...including preamp...into power conditioner. Hope that is correct. I will make those changes abruptly. Thank you for advice |
cleeds was spot on when he suggested a whole house surge protector. Great insurance for a small $ outlay. I lost a large screen TV about a decade ago due to a power outage followed by a strong power surge as the power was being restored. A neighbor who was an electrical contractor before he retired suggested a whole house surge protector, and I'm very glad that I took his advice. I also have an APC power filter and a Tripp-Lite isolation transformer in use. Belt + suspenders? |
I have and have had a isolation transformer. I plug every thing into it, so there is no possibility of any noise, hash, generator or lighting noise getting into my system and there is an audible difference in the sound, even my friends have said they can hear a subtle difference, a lowering of the noise floor if you wish. The transformer just has to have the the capacity to handle all of you equipments power needs (volts times amps). The one I have right now is 2.5kVA, so 2,500 watts divided by about 120 vac gives me about 8.33 amps. My equipment total is less than 4 amps at most, so I should have no issues with it. You can get them on Ebay for a modest price. |
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Something is better than nothing.I feel the front end benefits from clean power provided by better power conditioner products such as your Shunyata. I feel amps should be unrestricted, so you have two choices. Power conditioner products that will support the load of the amp, or at a minimum some type of higher current power protection device. ( APC, Furman, ... ). |
"it’s not so much the voltage that’s critical, but the current, and no simple voltage regulator can increase the available current - it’s the law of conservation of energy." Sorry, I probably need a refresher on my EE but I thought one of the reasons folks invest in high quality power cords, dedicated circuits, or even care about high quality power supplies - both internal to the gear or external, was to avoid a drop in supply voltage as the gear, particularly high power amplifiers, draw current during peak demands as well as control sagging voltages during these swings. Which part of the Ohm's Law am I missing? |
Kalili.....I forgot to mention, I had built a dedicated circuit into the audio room to a 4 outlet high grade furutech (dark grey, don't know which model). So no interference from appliances. However, the shunyata power conditioner is plugged into it. I have everything plugged in for the "conditioning" of the shunyata and the surge protection. I am a bit concerned about plugging a $35,000 system directly into a wall jack bare bones with no backup protection. Then again, I don't want degraded sound quality either, which is why instead of say...an apc style surge protector...i opted for a much more expensive power conditioner that is advertised as an audio grade conditioner. But I should plug the power amp in directly is what I am reading....but the preamp is not necessary to plug in directly? I will do that, since it sounds like like the power amp has special considerations. N80....you could try a surgex surge protector. No degrading from surges in the surgex products from their proprietary technology. Also, if not that, you could purchase a multi outlet power cord electrical box where you can plug/unplug your components without worrying about wearing out your wall outlets. I am having one built right now by JT Dynamic Power. Jason has built all of my power cords and interconnects....fantastic stuff at very reasonable prices. Great guy too |
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kalali The power conditioner I use is an old 65 lbs. hospital grade transformer-based cube with eight outlets. It puts out a consistent 124 volts whereas the adjacent wall outlet is normally around 113-115 volts. I can’t claim it’s a “good” conditioner since I have not made fair comparisons but it continued to deliver the 124 volts even when I plugged in my wife’s hair dryer ...That sounds like more of a voltage regulator than a simple power conditioner. As mental points out, it’s not so much the voltage that’s critical, but the current, and no simple voltage regulator can increase the available current - it’s the law of conservation of energy. But that doesn’t mean that your solution isn’t an effective one for you. I use both power conditioners and a voltage regulator in my system. |
The only power conditioner that actually improved the sound quality with my mono amps is the Core Tech 1800 balanced unit. I modified it by eliminating the internal outlet daisy chain wiring and installed all Furutech NCF outlets and inlet. That being said at this point do not order one due to the companies strange recent activity. But if you can find a used one it is worth it. ozzy |
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cleeds, perhaps my choice of the wording “good” power conditioner was subjective and not properly used. The power conditioner I use is an old 65 lbs. hospital grade transformer-based cube with eight outlets. It puts out a consistent 124 volts whereas the adjacent wall outlet is normally around 113-115 volts. I can’t claim it’s a “good” conditioner since I have not made fair comparisons but it continued to deliver the 124 volts even when I plugged in my wife’s hair dryer. I assumed, perhaps naively, that this was a sign of a good conditioner. Edited to add that the conditioner is plugged into a dedicated 20 amp circuit. |
