I had a PS Audio Premier and replaced it with a Transparent Power Isolator 4. The Transparent was a huge step up from the Premier, so I would go with the Transparent. I would also have dedicated lines put in if you don't have them already. They make a huge difference. If you don't have dedicated lines, do that before getting a power conditioner, if you can.
Power conditioner help
Hi All,
Posting this here since there is no section devoted to power products. I also posted it in the miscellaneous section.
If you had a choice between PS Audio P10 power plant and a Transparent Powerisolator Reference, which would you choose and why? Both available at reasonable prices, though P10 is still quite a bit more. I have a pretty high end system with a Musical Fidelity NuVista 800 integrated amp, NuVista CD (the new one), Scoutmaster turntable, SDS/ADS, Herron VTPH2, Wilson Sashas, and all Transparent Ref MM2 cables. System sounds great, but my present Powerbank 8 is quite old now, so I want to upgrade it.
Thanks for your opinions.
Posting this here since there is no section devoted to power products. I also posted it in the miscellaneous section.
If you had a choice between PS Audio P10 power plant and a Transparent Powerisolator Reference, which would you choose and why? Both available at reasonable prices, though P10 is still quite a bit more. I have a pretty high end system with a Musical Fidelity NuVista 800 integrated amp, NuVista CD (the new one), Scoutmaster turntable, SDS/ADS, Herron VTPH2, Wilson Sashas, and all Transparent Ref MM2 cables. System sounds great, but my present Powerbank 8 is quite old now, so I want to upgrade it.
Thanks for your opinions.
127 responses Add your response
This is a very interesting thread. As far as balanced power goes, I have only read a little about this and all of it has been vendor material. I have yet to get an audio amp manufacturer (other than PS Audio) to weigh in, and would welcome that. @jay23 Thank you for the excellent video which brilliantly shows one of the problems when "everything in the chain" needs to be up to a minimal level. I completely understand the demonstrated example where the power cord was sub-par in terms of denying the meter the full current that would otherwise be available. You are correct: I should get such a meter and perform an electrical test at the wall outlet and again at a P10 outlet. That would be informative in terms of what "load" the P10 presents. ...However, what is a "huge transformer" from a load perspective? Certainly it presents a loss in terms of consuming current, but it also buffers current in its magnetic core. If I understand simple electrical theory sufficiently, then that loss is an issue when the amp draw approaches the effective current limit at the component/amp socket. If I understand this, that means we need a properly sized power regenerator that exceeds the amp draw by some not-by-myself-understood amount of unused current. For my Ayon and other components, these are drawing no more than 750va ...and the P10 is capable of 1500va — a 50% excess of power is available. Did I get that right? If so, where is the starving? |
I just installed an ISOCLEAN power outlet and I think it's very good. http://isocleanpower.com/product_23.htm |
I have used the P10 with Transparent cabling and it has worked well. I have also used older Transparent power cords with the P10 and they worked well also. But when i changed to the High Fidelity MC 6 Hemisphere the sound stage just about doubled. The only negative trade off was the Hemisphere has no spike or surge protection. The P10 is a nice unit but the Hemisphere blew it away in sound performance. My P10 sat on a PSaudio Powerbase and had the rear panel fuse up graded. All where improvements over the stock P10 by it self. The Hemisphere just sounded much more musical and detailed.The Hemisphere will take all of 600 plus hours to be at its best. I have not tried any of the Transparent conditioners. I think both the P10 and the MC 6 Hemisphere have a 30 day money back policy. Enjoy Pete |
arsh, If you're willing to at least buy something from The Cable Company, they have their "Cable Library" that has line conditioners you can try in your own system. https://thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777 There should be no reason you can't demo conditioners, even in your own system, outside of lack of desire or slightly added shipping costs. |
Originally Posted by vicweast You're talking about adding another huge transformer, in addition to the at least one you have in your amps. Instantaneous current delivery is important for music reproduction. Check out this video ( https://youtu.be/4qCK--lRFd0 ), from Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata Research. To put the onus back on you - since you can't measure the DTCD - have you at least measured the ASCC before and after your regenerator? |
I'm have also heard power conditioners choke systems. The audioquest niagara (I mentioned I became a dealer for) can actually deliver 90 amps for short bursts, which I can hear has helped dynamics. (As well as noise floor)There are some great videos on YouTube where Garth Powell explains his philosophy and history of power conditioners he developed at furman and now audioquest. Pretty fascinating and you can hear the demo system's improvement even over the Web. Which seems crazy but I had a friend confirm it. |
Vic & Jay, From my experience I’d say you are both correct in your comments. I was in the shop one day and saw a couple of Tripp Lite isolation transformers laying around. One was an IS1000 (8.3 Amp rating) and the other was an IS500 (4.2 Amp rating). I figured I’d see what they’d do since the current readout on my Panamax 5500 usually read 3.4 Amps when playing both components in my system. I put the amp through the IS1000 and the media player through the IS500. The noise floor of the system dropped significantly but it was also obvious the system was being choked. The PRAT suffered terribly, as did the sound stage, dynamics, etc. But hearing what it did with the noise floor was certainly enough to make me want to investigate a unit appropriate for my system. In conversations with Bryston I learned that as a result of their testing in order to avoid the detrimental results I had experienced with the undersized isolation transformers they actually use a 30 Amp transformer in the 15-series units and a 40 Amp in the 20-series units. So, from my experience, I can attest to the ill effects from an undersized power conditioning piece, but likewise, when the unit was right-sized for my system (actually a bit of overkill I’d say) the results have only been very positive. Cheers, |
Inna....I've never had any success with power conditioners....yes, they all change the sound of the system, but all of them (and I tried many) created warts I wasn't prepared to live with. You will never know what one of these things do unless you put it in your own system and listen. If you can't do that....simply save your money. (I surmise you have good power cords which DO make a difference...but too you have to hear one that works well with your own system). |
@jay23 What is behind my attitude is the disconnect between my experiences, the experiences of those I know and in contrast what a few posts here stated. Taken together they do not agree: Hence the question — what gear, what circumstances? I asked that because I do think it possible to get different results, but clean power is clean power and an abundance of clean power to draw-down (buffered/stored) in a transformer during dynamic passages is power you did not otherwise have on tap through the wall. So, what were the circumstances? Unless the answer is just opinion or hand waving, it’s an answer to be mentally plotted in a space of appropriate/inappropriate uses for power regenerators. To date, no negative experience I have read of rises above "opinion", I’m looking for more than just "good", "bad", made my music "sound green"... I can’t process those in a meaningful way because I have come to fear opinions as completely subjective. [Subjective isn’t bad, it’s just "thin" unless it comes with an abundance of descriptors such that the reader can relate to the opinion as a substantial one rather than someone at the end of a keyboard just being ...social and saying "it’s bad for music listening" ...the question remains: why? ...After all, it is just clean and abundant power. These discussions sometimes remind me of politics, a nasty topic that is light on fact, ignores fact, or builds on fact: the three are quite different. Sorry for bringing it up, but it is just an example.] Given the wealth of technical material I have read on the topic over several years, and given the experiences I pointed to: How is it possible that the addition of an appropriately-sized power regenerator can generate a negative music listening experience? (I am open to any answer that informs, rather than a brush-back answer.) |
Originally Posted by vicweast What a great attitude! 😄 I guess this deserves the same respect in reply. "Ignorance is bliss." "One man's trash is another man's treasure." 😁 You own the gear, you're happy with it, and you seem set in your opinion (and those you trust)...so why question it? |
Wells Audio just come out with a reference power conditioner I question any audio company that states, "The specially designed outlets have phosphor bronze contacts (the best sounding material for audio contacts)..." Given they use a circuit developed by Jack Bybee, and their reference uses Bybees, I would recommend checking out the Bybee Stealth, over the Wells. |
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@reynolds853 [ shhh! don’t tell them how great an amp the Ayon Triton III is... I pulled the superior but failure-prone original Ayon KT88 BTSX tubes (@$180 each) and am just now getting the replacement Gold Lions into the fully-burned-in state. I’ll go back to the Ayon BTSX tubes, but the Gold Lions sound very nice now and after emailing back-and-forth with Ayon I now know that my Triton III is also factory-ready for KT150 tubes. So, that’s the next experiment. ...I’ll bet they sound great with the additional benefits of my power regenerator, eh? (grin...) ] |
I commented earlier (above) on this, but I am simply astonished at the comments that poo-poo buffering power regenerators. Not a single negative comment rings true in my personal experience over at least 10 years of use with numerous different regenerators and audio gear. In fact ...JUST THE OPPOSITE: Every positive quality of my audio gear is enhanced and whatever power-noise there was is ...gone gone gone. I can only guess that those who did not get these results either oversubscribed their power regenerator or had other issues in their systems. I'd love to hear more specific information about what you used, and your audio stack. Otherwise, based on my experience and those I trust I have to say you are way off base. Please explain... |
I would recommend listening to as many options as possible, whether at a local dealer, or making use of an online retailer with a great return policy. As you can see, there are many fans of the cleaning power of regenerating and balanced options. I've personally always found them to slow PRAT. I would add conditioners like the Shunyata Denali, Synergistic Research PowerCell 12 UEF, and High Fidelity Cable to the list to audition. |
arsh, yes I have one PC plugged into another. The Emotiva is one of the only devices that offers a "DC filter". The Panamax has surge protection and under/over voltage protection. Both have noise/rfi/emi filtering. IMO unless your looking to spend many thousands on something like a Torus or AudioQuest Niagara, the two devices I'm using with a combined cost of $349 is hard to beat. |
Arsh, My experience with the AVR20 mirrors Vic’s experience with his system as I have not experienced any limitation in current, compression of soundstage, etc. In fact, quite the opposite has been the case. Also, Vic and I use the same amp (Ayon Triton III; I also have an Ayon S5 media player that runs off the AVR20) and if his experience is like mine, the current reserves and eliminated noise floor have let his Triton sing with more authority and clarity than ever. The AVR20 replaced a Panamax 5500 in my system. The Panamax sounded only slightly better than the direct-to-wall connection. The Panamax is a $550 unit and the AVR20 a $4500 unit, so the latter should have demonstrated its superiority - which it did, and for me its contribution to my system was unquestionably worth its price. I know the folks at Bryston and Torus are very helpful and could help with a recommendation for your system - and it sounds too from Vic’s experience the same is true of PS Audio. When I was going through my decision making process it ultimately came down to which technology I wanted to pursue, and as I stated in my previous post, I gravitated toward the isolation transformer - passive technology, and that 400/200/100Amp current waterfall was really attractive to me. I have never regretted its addition into my system and it certainly has a permanent home. Cheers, John |
arsh, I'd be interested to know more about your MF Nuvista, but that's another topic for another day. I have a Musical Fidelity M6si which I'm real happy with. I can only imagine what the Nuvista tubes sound like :) For power conditioning I have my amp and other equipment plugged into a Panamax MR4300 and that is plugged into an Emotiva CMX-2 and that is plugged into a dedicated outlet. Both the Panamax and Emotiva are essentially passive (not 100% but lets say 99) and in no way limit current. The Panamax is made by the same company that makes Furman. |
I'm just patient ...and flexible. When I see a great deal in the space I am looking, I act. I currently have tube amps from Ayon Audio (Triton III), Raven (Blackhawk LE) and Rogue (Cronus Magnum). The Ayon is incredible with great tubes, likewise the Raven ...but a bit thinner (and 1/4th the price). @herndonb I have not experienced any current limitation with my P10. In fact, just the opposite: It buffers power in the large transformer. By doing this it makes that power available when it is needed. Your wall socket simply does not. If your audio gear has over-sized transformers, it also does some of this but it will starve itself faster without a device such as a PS Audio power plant or a Torus/Bryson... Now, if you have TOO much high-current gear plugged into it, you can expect to get different results, eh? Hence, I use the biggest such device and undersubscribe it by not plugging everything into a single one. In my case I am running at less than 750va, and the P10 is capable of 1500va (if I recall correctly). That is plenty of in-the-trandformer buffer for my 100w Ayon and my CD, network player and TT. |
Thanks Vuc and herndonb. Vuc, sounds like you have somehow been able to get incredible deals. What equipment are you connecting to your P10? Amps too? herndonb, I do like my amp plugged into the wall better than into my PB8. That being said, I have never tried another power conditioner. And thanks for the tip about the surge arrestor. I'm going to do that regardless! |
Completely agree with noromance. Listen to your system without one. I've heard ~30 power conditioners. They all limit current, compress, soften and just generally make your system sound worse. If you want to protect your system from lightning and surges, use a surge arrestor at your service panel. They are easy to install, and cost about $60. Everything in your home that is electronic is protected. Now, there are some amazing AC power cords, such as the Purist Limited Edition power cord that has RF/EMI filtration. But it's non current limiting, passive, the conductors pass right through the box, no splices, connections, limitations. Try listening to your system without a power conditioner. I'm pretty certain you'll prefer it without. |
I have only used PS Audio power products ...due to periodic discounts I took advantage of over the past 10 years (I recently bought a factory-new P10 for $2500). I have several PowerPlants from the "Premier" to the P10. They all deliver the goods on both clean power and reserve/buffered power. I'm sure —based on reading reviews over many years— that the Torus/Brystons are at least similar in quality/results. I have spoken with PS Audio engineers both OTP and in person. Smart company, good products ...and they are happy to answer technical questions. If you are in the Denver area for RMAF ...take an extra day and head to Boulder to visit the numerous audio companies located there. PSAudio, Avalon, Boulder,... it's a gold mine and they are very friendly and helpful. |
Arsh, The Bryston plugs into the wall, my amp and media player plug into the Bryston. The Torus/Bryston 20-series is a beast. I use a Kimber PK10 Gold to run from the wall to the Bryston, and the PK10 Palladian power cords from the Bryston to the amp and media player. The Palladian cords are also seriously good, by the way - what they do with the bass is astonishing... and great extension in the high frequencies too. I got them before I got the Bryston so the above configuration is the only way I’ve run the rig. In my opinion the AVR20 lets the system live up to its full potential. I occasionally demo the system for friends by running straight from the wall for a few tunes and then I’ll connect the AVR20 back in. It's not uncommon for people to ask if they are listening to the same CD. The system sounded quite good before the AVR20, but it nonetheless made quite an impact. I went the isolation transformer route because it suited me on several levels: it’s old school, well-understood technology; it’s passive; it’ll put out a prodigious amount of current; and as someone who likes his watts by the pound, it suits me. I hope this helps, but certainly feel free to ask if you have additional questions. Cheers, John |
Arsh, I use a Bryston AVR20 isolation transformer and love it. It's the exact same thing as a Torus AVR20, just branded by Bryston, so any review you read on either can be substituted for the other. The AVR series has surge protection, power isolation/conditioning, and voltage regulation. Without voltage regulation it becomes the RM series for Torus or a BIT if carrying the Bryston brand. I love mine and recommend it without hesitation. The 20-series are the 20A versions. Peak current output is 400A for 1/2 second, 200A for 1 second, and 100A for 10 seconds. The 15-series are the 15A versions and 300/150/75A for the peak current specifications. Both Torus or Bryston would be very responsive if you were to ask them which series would be most suitable for your amp. I run my system on a 20A dedicated line with a Wattgate outlet, which was about $135 at the time I got it years ago. Since we are on the subject of power, I use Kimber PK10 Palladian power cords throughout my system and can recommend them too. Cheers, John |