Posting this here since there is no section devoted to power products. I also posted it in the miscellaneous section.
If you had a choice between PS Audio P10 power plant and a Transparent Powerisolator Reference, which would you choose and why? Both available at reasonable prices, though P10 is still quite a bit more. I have a pretty high end system with a Musical Fidelity NuVista 800 integrated amp, NuVista CD (the new one), Scoutmaster turntable, SDS/ADS, Herron VTPH2, Wilson Sashas, and all Transparent Ref MM2 cables. System sounds great, but my present Powerbank 8 is quite old now, so I want to upgrade it.
I would not use a Transparent conditioner, given my dealer has one. I don't hear the great crescendos that live music presents, and I've had their Ultra speaker cable (from 1994), then their Reference speaker cable ('96) them the MM1 2004 and MM2 (2008). Transparent's sound seems a little 'quiet' on transients. I have had several of PS Audio's power regenerators: P300, P600 and the newer line of generators that came out in 2009. also an Audience aR2p, and then the Audience 6 outlet Teflon model. I also have Shunyata's PS8, along with a P300 now. I can only say that, hooked up to a 100,000+ system, the overall sound is good, but not quite $100k good. I loaned my dealer Stillpoints, which I put under the Transparent conditioner, and he looked at me wildly (once we hit "play" on the ARC CD player, hooked up to the ARC $14,000 preamp, Alexia speakers and the ARC 75 watt amp) and said, "you are NOT getting those things back....what ARE they??? I told him they were Stillpoints Ultra Mini Risers. I think the PS Audio brings music to live more, but that could just be my dealer's imperfect setup.
You can Google this, Or you may call Ralph at Atma-Sphere and ask him to send you a pictures of the unit he has.
alternatively email me i will send you one.
Their is one being sold on Ebay few weeks back for 5000 dollars but that's not guaranteed to work and its not tested or refurbished.
Untested Beaten up units could sell for far less, but i guess if you decided to get them refurbished your self it would end up costing a lot more.
Frankly speaking you either use a industrial type of unit such as a Elgar or just forget about getting a power condition as these so called high end audio power conditioner will never cut it.
Its usually installed at your main box Panel. From that point you can run dedicated Power Cables to your listening room which can be either connected to your wall socket or a free standing power cable connected to a distribution box for all your audio gear.
This is a permanent installation and best kept outside of your listening room.
Mine was Refurbished by Atma-Sphere. Actually the unit was in very good condition to start with. Ralph went ahead and gave it new output capacitors and reseated alot of the transistors on board. It works perfectly fine and up to spec.
Asking price is $4680.00 US dollars Not including Paypal or delivery. It can be picked up from Atma-Sphere. It weights Almost 200lbs.
Mine is 240V Input and 130V output which is perfect for USA Homes.
Your incoming line is 240V but then the voltage is split at your main box. This would ideally sit at the box area away from the Music room. You would then run your power line from the Elgar into the Music Room. Up to 6 Dedicated Lines is possible.
You can purchase it directly from Atma-sphere by paying them and arranging collection if your interested. Considering the fact someone was selling another unit for 5000 dollars in-refurbished this one is an excellent value.
Jafant, yes I am using the PIR with MM2x power cord and an XLPC on my amp. The CDP and phono stage have Ref MM2x power cords also. The system sounds fantastic, and I am very happy with them, but intrigued with the Elgar. dragon_vibe, how much are you asking for yours?
I think any balanced transformer, actually any transformer, would
benefit greatly from a reduction in incoming ac line harmonics; just as
industrial users do. Suggestions atmasphere?
Of course! Line harmonics are quite deleterious to transformer operation.
The Elgar so far is one of the few conditioners I have seen that can actually filter out line harmonics, but if you have an Elgar, no need for a transformer after it!
From Atmasphere "An isolation transfomer that is being used as a passive device will contribute harmonic distortion to the AC output.... " I suggest we must also keep in mind transformer impedance drops whenever it's used at less than rated capacity.. Another challenge for transformers is the multitude of AC line harmonics coming into homes , and harmonics being generated by electrical devices within homes,from laptops to phone chargers to microwaves. I feel "Electro-Pollution" concerns will be increasing to average consumers in the near future. GREENWAVE is one company focused on this.The newer 'noise sniffers' I see becoming rental products. I much appreciate products like Equitech's Q series of balanced transformers with additional noise filtering. I think any balanced transformer, actually any transformer, would benefit greatly from a reduction in incoming ac line harmonics; just as industrial users do. Suggestions atmasphere?
An isolation transformer would be beneficial; 2 would be better. 1 for
your digital player and 1 for analog source; however "balanced
transformers" like Equitech are better yet.
An isolation transfomer that is being used as a passive device will contribute harmonic distortion to the AC output if loaded past about 50% of their rated capacity. One should always observe this characteristic when using isolation transformers! Otherwise the resulting harmonic distortion (particularly the 5th harmonic) can have highly deleterious effects.
Atmaspere; nice to hear your thank you to Michael Percy. My experience
with him goes back to the early 90's and I've appreciated his knowledge
and integrity.
One time when I was visiting Michael he was servicing out one of the Elgars similar to the type I mentioned earlier. That was over 25 years ago! That these conditioners hold their value as well as they do says something.
Atmaspere; nice to hear your thank you to Michael Percy. My experience with him goes back to the early 90's and I've appreciated his knowledge and integrity.
Miko's suggestion can be improved upon. An isolation transformer would be beneficial; 2 would be better. 1 for your digital player and 1 for analog source; however "balanced transformers" like Equitech are better yet. You should read their tech info and particularly review their customer list.
We just finished the rebuild of one of the lower powered Elgars (which is to say that it handles 1000 VA; about 8.5 amps at 117V).
It regulates the line voltage such that with 100 - 130 volts input, the output is rock stable, with no distortion of the AC waveform output. We ran a pair of our M-60s on it- pretty nice; no 'high end audio' conditioner even comes close.
Before I became aware of these conditioners (thanks to Michael Percy) we were constantly running into the problem of our amps sounding **worse** on most 'high end' conditioners; at best no difference.
Given that in high end audio, price for performance is often no object, it really puzzles me why no-one makes a decent power conditioner, but that's how it is. Most of them are a waste of money. One thing that really gets me is how a glorified power strip is supposed to help- now you are forcing everything on the box to run through the single power cord that feeds the box. You're pretty well guaranteed some sort of power sag. So unless you're really serious about getting a decent power conditioner, you're probably a lot better off just getting decent power cords and making sure you have good quality AC outlets in your audio room, per stringreen's comment above.
You may want to try an Isolation transformer. Balanced power is what studios and professional musicians use. Much cheaper then the options you suggested.
Arsh....I have an EP 2050 that I had an electrician wire into the main panel after a surge took out one of my Vandersteen amps..... The lights give me satisfaction that its working....the sound of the system improved...not dramatically, but an improvement never the less.
I'm with noromance (above). I've tried many of these, but they always add warts I'm not willing to live with. Yes to good power cords, upgraded outlets, but no to conditioners.
Thanks again to those who have added additional comments. I am quite happy with the Transparent Powerisolator Reference and XL Powercord. Nice improvement in resolution and noise floor. XLPC still needs quite a bit of break-in, so it should end up even better than it is now.
The best power conditioners were not offered to high end audio.
They were made by Elgar (still in business). They used a massive isolation transformer which had a feedback winding on it. A low distortion oscillator was used, synced to the AC line frequency. The output of the transformer was then compared to that of the oscillator and a correction voltage was generated and applied to the feedback winding.
The result was AC voltage regulation and THD of no more than 0.1% at full current (one of the larger units could supply 28 amps).
The biggest problem that power conditioners face is the 5th harmonic of the line frequency, which most conditioners can't filter out. This harmonic heats up power transformers, causes rectifiers to become noisy and causes reverse currents to exist in AC synchronous motors. IOW its pretty pesky. By comparison, spikes and high frequency noise are non-issues!
The Elgars are some of the few conditioners that not only eliminate the high frequency noise but also the 5th harmonic. The SP Audio regenerator conditioners can filter this noise but don't have the capacity for high current. So they can be problematic if you have a higher power tube amplifier or a higher power class A transistor amp where there is a larger amount of steady state current draw.
Elgar saw years ago that the power conditioner market was shrinking and moved their business model away from that part of the market. So these days to get the best you have to buy them used and have them refurbished. Its rare that one can talk about the best in high end audio but this is one of those cases.
Before money is spent on conditioners, you owe it to yourself to listen the Purist Limited Edition power cord, or better yet the 25th Anniversary AC power cord, or very best 30th Anniversary AC power cord. :-)
As to these ratings on the conditioners and regenerators, I think bcowen may have nailed it. I.E. they look good on paper for RMS, but when the transient of a big pop on a snare drum, or the dynamic pluck of bass guitar, everything is boringly softened.
When I call Transparent for information, which has been many times over the years, I have always gotten very good and clear explanations as well as a excellent customer service and an attitude of being helpful and willing to answer the questions that I have. Try calling and asking to speak to Demos or Josh.
Take a look at Jon Risch's comments in the link below. Perhaps the regenerator(s) are sized appropriately for the RMS current, but starve when the peak requirements occur?
I'm certainly no expert on this, just passing along info from someone who knows way more than I do.
So, based on comments here and elsewhere I called Transparent and asked about their power conditioners. The young guy was very nice, and he tried to be helpful but alas, he could not give me a technical explanation for his marketing/sales spiel. This is the problem I have when I call most audio companies and ask for help in understanding their benefits at a technical level. For power conditioning gear I really expect to get my basic questions answered.
What I got was that the Transparent gear uses a parallel approach in how they voltage clamp and remove transients/noise. I heard the name "avalanche diode" repeatedly, but when I asked how that worked... no information. I asked him to contrast their approach with the approach that power regenerators take, and he said "we don’t really follow other vendors in this space" -- a fair statement, but I was a bit put off as well. I do not want to create a negative impression about my experience: But I did not get technical enlightenment on much of what Transparent does or how the overall category or power conditioners works and (especially) how they might negatively impact music.
What I will say is that most of what I have read and most of what I have heard strikes me as non-technical and not empirical at all. I simply want to know why some people (Transparent sales included) firmly state that when they listen to audio gear through a regenerator they believe that the sound is constricted and the sound stage suffers. I take this as BS. The only way that can happen is if the device itself restricts the FULL CURRENT THAT THE ATTACHED AUDIO GEAR NEEDS. If your regenerator provides more than the maximum draw, how is it restricting anything? In fact I’ll go further and say that if the regenerator transformer is large enough, you will get more power at peak sections of music than the wall would be able to provide!
So, if you really understand what is happening: Please explain it ...in technical terms. (Remember, I have not suffered this problem with my regenerators, and my attached audio gear does not draw more than 50% of the regenerator’s rated capabilities. It is power, it is ample and it is clean power. Please explain.)
Totally agree with stingreen, is take a Purist power cord over any power conditioner. I have found all conditioners to be one step forward, two steps back. I.e. Their might be a perceived reduction in the noise floor, but the dynamics are softened, or worse...anyway more harm than good
I have always been skeptical of power conditioners. What I do like is the Kubala Sosna XPander. Plug all your gear into that and you should be good. I have two Bricasti M 28 mono blocks and the M1 DAC plus tow Wilson Benesch Torus Infrasonic Generator amps plus a Melco N1 player/storage. Sounds very good to my ears and no adjustments or knobs or dials to mess with.
Sorry John. Powerisolator Reference (which comes with a Reference Powerlink MM2x Powercord), and the Powercord XL (or XL Powercord?), which is their newest and best Powercord just below Opus. I'm going to put that on my amp.
Jafant, thanks for your comments. I am also a big fan of Transparent. I have been very happy with all of their products I have owned. Their customer service is excellent; they are very helpful and willing to answer questions. Not only that but they know the technical facets of their products very well (not always the case with some companies I have encountered). When have called them with questions over the years, I usually get to talk with the same people--nice to have consistent contacts. Definitive Audio in Seattle is a great high-end dealer, and they cable all their best systems (Wilson, ARC, Dagostino, etc) with Transparent. They got me started on Transparent gear years ago. I'm excited to hear what the PIR and XLPC do in my system.
I am a big Transparent cabling fan and a number of years ago, I was visiting Audio Advice in Raleigh NC. Their main room featured Wilson Audio speakers, ARC/Bryston gear and OPUS complete cabling.
They were also using all of the different Transparent PC in all of their rooms, even the smaller/less costly set-ups. Mark Levinson, Classe' Rotel B&W, Aerial speakers.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
