Power amps into surge protector/Conditioner or DIRECT to wall? Final verdict?

I throw the breaker and unplug. Also took the Cable TV off the system. I can hook it up when I want to quickly. Every house on my block/street had been hit by lightning. I really can't handle that nightmare.

They works on the 2, RF and vibrations, but I am not the physicist, you are Geoffkait...

The question is are the crystals working on the rf or the vibration.

Panamax m 4300 ex, do the job for me + stones and crystals I added myself with great success...

@erik_squires  Thanks for your feedback Erik and all the clear & concise input you have contributed to this topic in the various threads over the last week. It has been helpful and very much appreciated.

@blindjim  Thanks for your empathy and encouragement in this confusing topic.

Pretty expensive solution cleeds. I'm not sure why everyone thinks separate lines will reduce noise. The are all connected to the same main.
Any power supply worth is salt filters noise. It should be particularly good at filtering 60 Hz noise. You would get much more bang for the buck buying a more powerful amp than buying a line conditioner.  Put shorting plugs on the inputs of your amps and put your ear right up to the speaker. You hear any noise? I don't even with my preamp hooked up on a shorted input with the volume all the way up. No noise, none. Yes the phono preamp has some tube rush. Preamp on my usb input to which my computer is connected with the volume all the way up, no noise. All my front end goes to one surge protecting power strip. The amps have 20 amp dedicated lines but no power conditioner. No noise. People will say that I am just lucky and have clean power. Every modern system I have set up is powered the same way, no noise ( excluding phono amps). I also do not use analog preamps which is part of it for sure. Analog preamps will have at least a little noise. Does a little noise affect the sound quality. If it does us vinyl people are in for it. Is it all just a marketing scam aimed at gullible audiophiles?

whole house surge protection!

great idea. no question about it.

however, not a solution if one lives in an apartment or condo.

additionally in homes, installing an isolation T former would be a help.

Dedicated lines are a very good idea though these only reduce, and do not eliminate collateral noise. remember all the neutrals and grounds are connected at the service.

installing dedicated lines should then be on the same phase and if possible, a phase different from what is supplying most major appliances. as said, Micros, 'fridges, dish washers, washing machines, etc.

avoiding the lines ovens, dryers, and hot water heaters use is unavoidable as they are sucking off both phases periodically.

several problems solved!

... but then we're back to the reputed grunge living on the incoming power and a consequent need for filtering it out, or at least ameliorating it.

1. Whole house surge protection.
2. Multiple, de-rated, 20A dedicated lines.
3. Separate lines for each amplifier (system is bi-amped)
4.) Separate lines for analog and digital.
5.) Every component goes into a power conditioner.

As mentioned above....whole house surge protection.

Surge protection aside, I would personally plug my gear directly into the wall socket only when the outlet is a dedicated line. Otherwise you may get noise from all other devices that are sharing the line. These could include light dimmers, microwave ovens, hair dryers, etc., etc. In addition to noise, the voltage in the line may also fluctuate if you have any appliances which turn on/off - think refrigerator compressor, sharing that line. 

Would you plug your pre-amp into a power conditioner/protector and amp into wall (I have a ss 18 wpc First Watt)?  Thanks for any advice

Oh, almost forgot. Of course, look for UL 1449 for a device tested as a surge suppressor.


If it doesn’t have that, especially at these astronomical prices, pretty much write it off.


Here is the spec for Furman's cheapest SMP strip:

https://www.furmanpower.com/product/15a-8-outlet-surge-suppressor-strip-wsmp-lift-and-evs-PST-8

I am a bit confused as how to compare devices for their surge protection.

The Furman PST-8, using series mode surge protection, rates their product at 135VAC for the "over voltage shutoff."

Right. So the SMP is always on, there’s no activation lag. It also provides relatively low over-voltage protection. These may not be surges, but long lasting events. This can happen if your electric provider doesn’t balance the loads right.

Shunyata, using a hydraulic electromagnetic breaker, rates their Venom
Amp-1 for 40,000A @ 8/50 microseconds for the "transient protection."

Yep, and it’s just not as good.

• It will short surges to ground, and then you are at the mercy of the house wiring, as well as stress the house wiring. Any issues there will increase the voltage at your gear.
  
• It takes time to activate.
  
• During the surge, it is high current (40,000A), potentially stressing the home wiring, not to mention lighting on fire (see thermally protected MOV videos for examples)
  

The SMP approach is no lag, and low current during a surge hit. The parallel approach always has lag, and is a high current at surge. A high speed surge (and any noise over 3 kHz) on the hot or neutral line MUST appear at the surge protector, instead of the protected gear.

good thread!!

2009 - Duet Features(Courtesy of PS Audio) Real surge protection  Nano Crystalline filters  Common Mode filtering  Differential mode filtering  Unimpeded AC power flow Solid aluminum chassis  Over under voltage protection  Solid copper delivery system  Real
sonic improvements  Best filter performance  Complete surge and spike protection  Low resistance AC path  Superior noise reduction Duet Price: $295 in 2009 and I think ther was a sale that saved an added $50.

the Duet was near an entry level piece from PSA back then.

talk here of the Furman item shows perhaps a better value at itds reputed $180 cost.

i should think by now SOTA has ushered in better specs or developments in the tech being used by PSA and others, but even with what is stated herein these units saved my uh, ‘stuff’ 3 separate times from direct and near by lightening strike incidents.

as well, even an older PSA UPC 200 kept my office PC and associated hardware from going belly up.

perhaps its not any one item of tech (series mode) that saves gear from under or over power line issues and lightening, but an amalgamation of the tech being applied en masse.

BTW… two of these Duets are still in operation ten years later.

maybe too a companies ‘reputation’ says something about its products durability and performance.

if better is abailable and likely there is now, from PSA and others, then certainly investigate it/them as is your opportunity.

I’m sure the next more recent passive PLC I will look at first will be the devices made by PSA based solely on my EXP with them which matters a lot to me.

this is not to say that PSA will end up being the one I buy… but from their service and performance I’ve gotta keep them high on the list, if not first overall.
RE Passive vs Active PLC/filter

I’ve auditioned a number of passive and active power line ‘treatment’ units from the likes of Equitech, Isotech, sahnling, PSA, and Running springs.

not one active/regenerating power cond. did I feel aided the audio presentation. I felt they bleached the sound. removed the wettness, dehydrated the luster of the tones.

only in an all tube arrangement with a tube cDP, line stage and mono amps being all tube formulated did the sQ come off resembling anything close to reality. that unit as I recall was a Chang light speed piece supplying SET monos.

certainly taste plays a part in anything one will keep in their audio system, and this says something more about my tastes perhaps in sonics than what another might percieve from an active regenerating power line cond.

just looking for one partivular bit of tech may be shortsighted, and it may well be a better tact to look at the overall, view like the maker’s rep, especially when attempting to gain both protection and improved audio quality.

why makers use different means to market their devices and not adhere to more common means is exactly that… marketing tactics.

this maker or that one decided quoting their own measurements in one capacity or another ‘sounds’ better… at leasst to them so that is why they account things in proprietary means.

power ratings used to have this same perplexity until RMS came along and makers began quoting watts as RMS instead of Peak, or other fashions.

looks like one will have to reach out to the brand X maker and ask specifically if they will warranty lightening, over and under current/voltage issues, etc., before making a final choice, as the sonic concerns will be plainly evident once it is installed and run in.

Have fun!

@aberyclark 
I don't see any surge protection.

I think I'm going to go for the Isotek EVO 3 Polaris

http://www.tonepublications.com/review/isotek-evo-3-sirius/

The wheels of progress

I am a bit confused as how to compare devices for their surge protection. 

The Furman PST-8, using series mode surge protection, rates their product at 135VAC for the "over voltage shutoff."

Shunyata, using a hydraulic electromagnetic breaker, rates their Venom
Amp-1 for 40,000A @ 8/50 microseconds for the "transient protection."

The two companies rate their products using different units of measurement. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Which of these devices provides better protection for surge protection? It seems like there should be a standard for reporting so the general public can compare.

To add to the confusion, PS Audio rates their DirectStream Power Plant 12 (a power regenerator) using 3 sets of units; (1) an "over voltage limit" of continuous 5% of setting along with (2) a "peak surge current" of 90,000A and finally (3) a "maximum surge voltage" of 6,000V with a clamp level 340V.

How do I reconcile this to pick the best protection for my stereo? Thanks so much for any insight you can provide.

Bruce

Let your Tesla power your gear.....free, clean, consistent and isolated power right from your garage. 

I have a Furman power conditioner (a cheap one bought on Amazon) to protect from spring thunderstorms. Back in the nineties a thunderstorm took out the memory on a Denon stereo receiver and I use at least a surge protector on other devices. Have not noticed any sound difference one way or the other but would buy a power conditioner before I bought an after market power cord and just plugged it in the wall. Back in the "old" days of film I had a color darkroom and a voltage stabilizer which I think is another name for power conditioner that was a must for keeping color temperature from shifting.

Hmm maybe just a basic Isotek surge only strip us all one needs. 

The Emotiva is not a surge protector at all, and doesn't seem to offer over voltage protection either.

For the money, the Furman $180 strip is better.


https://amzn.to/2WtmefW


Best,
E

Seems to me the best, foolproof protection is to unplug your gear whenever you are away from home or a storm is approaching. Who listens to their systems during a thunderstorm anyway? Cost = $0, Protection = 100%.

J.Chip

I did this because we had 80000 volt wires go down onto 40000 volt wires and our house was one of the first houses to take the hit.  KCPL power wires went down over Aquila Power wires.  It blew light bulbs in my house, blackened some receptacles, blew my tv set and some other things.  KCPL paid for an electrician, all repairs and all devices at new cost; hence me purchasing surge protection for the entire house.   Not sure if it covers a direct hit from lightning. 

My whole house is protected by surge protection from the power company.   I pay around $5 a month for this.  Not sure how it affects my sound?

Low wattage gear should be plugged into one surge protector (common ground) Big amps (over 100 watts/ch) should have their own dedicated 15-20 amp circuit. No surge protector or power conditioner particularly if the amp has a regulated power supply and is run in balanced mode. If a big amp's power supply is not capable of cleaning things up on its own and handling the occasional surge don't buy it. Line level and phono gear is obviously more sensitive and should be on a surge protector. I lost a preamp to a lightening strike along with all my computers, the garage door ops, the telephones and the burglar alarm. The amps just blew it off.
Frankly, I have never had a power conditioner in my system that improved my sound. I am a bit lucky in that I have my very own lawn wart (transformer.) So, this may not be saying much.

A point some may wish to consider is that it is possible for potentially harmful voltage transients to be introduced not only from outside the house, but from inside as well.

For example, the only time I’ve ever had the power supply of a desktop computer fail was the day after a plumber had been using a large hand-held electric drill or saw (I forget which) in my basement. The next day a high quality Corsair power supply in a desktop computer I had built, which was in that basement, failed. My suspicion is that it was damaged by a high voltage transient resulting from “inductive kickback” (that term can be Googled for additional explanation) occurring when current to the motor of the tool was shut off.

The computer was “protected” by a cheap power strip/surge suppressor. The computer was turned off when the work was being performed, but as usual the AC switch on the power supply at the rear of the computer was on, so that standby power could be supplied to the motherboard.

Regards,

--Al

I was unaware Emotiva offers power strips. This one looks interesting

https://emotiva.com/collections/accessories/products/cmx-6

I might have to give Furman a try and see what happens sound wise

Look at a UK company called power inspired, they make full sinewave power regenerators for about £500. I use one and it is very good

When i was using my PS Audio P10 the amp sounded better at the wall

 I had my utility put a whole house surge arrester on the meter before it enters the house. Everything in my house is protected after the meter. We have some great lightning storms here in Georgia and my neighbors have experienced issues with their appliances during storms while I haven’t. My ps audio bhk amp sounds the best when plugged directly into the wall but I run everything else thru a ps audio conditioner. During lightning storms, I don’t unplug anything and sometimes I still listen to music without worrying.

So just did some reading. Apparently not all "whole house surge protectors" are UL 1449 compliant. Some are listed as "secondary surge protectors." Meaning the manufacturer expects you to have other devices for your electronics, but at least your big electrical devices won't fry. Might be worth checking which you have.


In any event, I suggest using a surge protector near your gear if you are in lightning prone areas.

Whole house surge protectors that are installed in the panel and made by the panel’s manufacturer are a great idea.


However, since the EMP from lightning can be induced directly into wiring, it’s a good idea to put a series mode protector near the devices you most care about. Also, home surge protectors still have activation time. Series mode protection does not.


Last time I had control over it, I had both. A D-Square whole house protector in the panel, and Furman Elite at my stereo.  I have repeatedly found that my system sounds better with the Elite than without it.

@aberyclark, I believe that blanket advice was good, absent context or other additional factors being mentioned.  Without some knowledge of the equipment, an amplifier could literally ruin and fry a low-end surge protector (picture smoke, I've seen it), even electronically controlled, due to high current draw.   Looking on the back of your equipment might reveal 1300 watts (or 1300 VA rating via inductive, capactive measure) or higher.  That's nearly a hairdryer.  Any other equipment would be fine to plug-in, e.g. the pre-amp, DAC and even TV since those are now minimal draw.  This equipment still might not protect against a lightning strike, but an intermittant surge would be okay.  Direct lightning strikes are very difficult to guard against.  When unsure, just unplug EVERYTHING.  Even in the off state, a lightning strike will fry everything along a path if plugged in.  BTW, the fuses are simply to protect equipment from its own internal failure or as a wide swag protection against external inputs out of specification (e.g. speakers).  Lightning will not care about fuses as they either will not react, or not quickly enough, or it will just arc over.  Grounding is also meant to either protect a user or protect equipment but never 100% guaranteed.  GFCI is also only 99% effective.  All of this is why, when weirder things happen, you can still have electrical fires which is why arc-fault interrupters are now code in addition to GFCI requirements in various locations in a residence.

Adding to the commentary on a general level since I do not own a high end power conditioner. I had a main surge protector installed on to the electric panel of the house. Great $450 investment in my mind. Then my DISH got hit by lightning which was located about 60 feet from the house. The energy surged through the DISH cable and into the house frying everything that came in direct contact with the DISH cables. Lost 3 TVs and the DISH boxes and DVD players conected to those cable inputs. The 2 TVs and DISH boxes that had the cable through a basic surge protector were saved. If I had my stereo components set up for home theater without a basic surge protector it also would have been fried since the surge would have come through the DISH cable and into the audio components. Just saying that a basic surge protector works but not making any commentary on SQ. Also be aware of the satellite connection if you are using your audio system as home theater.

Well I agree that if something sounds good then do it and if it sounds bad then don’t do it. Having said that. Now we can just mention the ongoing battle some have about the value of power cords, and conditioners versus stock cables. Ok. I mentioned it. I will also mention that I have proved to myself on my system, that Power management and cables do make a positive difference in how my system sounds. So given, that and the logic behind power conditioning, I have all main components and as many non-main components as I can fit, plugged into an AQ Niagara 5000. Those that don’t fit are plugged into a Shunyata MPC. Both of those units are plugged into Shunyata wall outlets. This has made a difference in my system by eliminating noise and producing blacker backgrounds. Perhaps other improvements, as well. So I recommend it. YMMV. 

I still keep everything plugged in through a surge protector which I care about.

Likewise in my case.

FWIW, I have my entire system protected by an Audience aR2p conditioner/surge suppressor ($695), and with my system at least it has no adverse sonic effects. Even if it did have some slight effects, though, I would probably use it anyway because I don't want my system (including the amp) exposed to any more risk than necessary.

I also use a Wiremold UL210BC power strip ($61) to expand the number of outlets (the Audience only provides two outlets). And I have a Shunyata Venom Defender ($200) plugged into the Wiremold, for additional protection and to minimize coupling of noise between components.

I should add, though, that the two amplifiers I've used with these things operate in class A, and hence draw current that doesn't fluctuate significantly as a function of the dynamics of the music (as it would in the case of class AB and especially class D amps). So I would be hesitant to extrapolate my findings to those kinds of amps.

Good luck. Regards,

-- Al

When a surge took out a Vandersteen amp, tried a few power conditioners..all made the sound worse...got a whole house protector wired into the mains box and find the problem solved.

You know gang, I was just thinking about how our location can really affect our perception. Ages ago I heard that the Florida power grid gets hit by 1 lightning striker per minute during the rainy season.


Living out in LA, and San Francisco, I don't think I've ever suffered a surge like I lived through in the south with the real thunderstorms Georgia got.


I still keep everything plugged in through a surge protector which I care about.

No. And eriks comment is misleading. Its nothing to do with line surges. The current fuses protect against is current draw resulting from a fault in the component itself.

So my comment was misleading, but you here assert nothing which contradicts it. I think it was very clear that fuses had nothing to do with surge protection.

Something is better than nothing.  Electric quality and stability is always a problem.  I have used, sold, .... many different products.  Each method has its merits.
Nothing works if you have a poor ground.  

When we built our house on a hillside 2 years ago I was concerned about lightning strikes so I had a whole house surge protector installed. I use power conditioners also but to clean up the noise riding the lines coming in.

Normally I would say to plug the amps directly into the wall outlet. But my amps sound better plugged into the Audioquest Niagara 7000.

ozzy

@ebm has provided the best answer.

And @falconquest has added another option (depending on your budget). Balanced power and other regenerators  provide enough power to accept an amp no problem.
Up until now, we have only been speaking about passive conditioners.

Listen both ways and you make the final verdict its you system.

From the FWIW department, I use a balanced power conditioner that provides surge protection but can also provide enough power for transient spike demands with dynamic music. I have no degradation of sound plugging the amp into the conditioner. It has specific outlets for amplifiers. I suggest a bit more research.

A unit like the Surgex has a lot of circuitry that prevents a clean signal from reaching the components. Compare that to a Furman. A Wiremold power strip has nothing internally to delay or colour the sound.

there is really no point in plugging amps into surge protection powerstipes, etc since sonics are effected. Best bet is probably make sure equipment is well insured

I didn't mean to make such a blanket statement. A high quality power strip will not degrade or restrict the sonics of an amp. I believe some Furman models claim that an amps sonics will not be affected. But I have found that an amp into a passive conditioner does affect its sound in some manner.
Check out the Furman line of power stations. Try one that has a 30 day return policy.
https://www.furmanpower.com/products/all/compact-power/power-station-series

Many power reconditioners such as PS Audio are built to accept an an amp since they are taking AC from the mains and generating a new clean signal for the components.
 

Badum Tzz