yes it can happen without warning sometimes... some carts just have weaker suspension designs
Possible Cartridge Suspension Collapse?
I dunno, it seems like my Hana SH is riding lower and lower as time goes on.
I got it new in 2018 and haven't spun all that many LPs on it - maybe have 350 hours?
Yesterday, I was spinning some LPs after not using it for about 2 months and at the start of every LP, there was a whoosing sound from the speakers - turns out the bottom of the cartridge was making contact with the very outside raised edge of LPs. Then as the record plays it would stop, but the cartridge body is darn near touching the LP surface - I mean practically an "RCH" distance.
On my Technics SL1200mk2, I run my VTF right at 2.0g (double verified with a Shure gauge and an electronic one).
Was thinking of moving up to the Hana ML, but now skittish of Hana's - may have to start thinking of getting a replacement regardless as my SH is just too low.
I got it new in 2018 and haven't spun all that many LPs on it - maybe have 350 hours?
Yesterday, I was spinning some LPs after not using it for about 2 months and at the start of every LP, there was a whoosing sound from the speakers - turns out the bottom of the cartridge was making contact with the very outside raised edge of LPs. Then as the record plays it would stop, but the cartridge body is darn near touching the LP surface - I mean practically an "RCH" distance.
On my Technics SL1200mk2, I run my VTF right at 2.0g (double verified with a Shure gauge and an electronic one).
Was thinking of moving up to the Hana ML, but now skittish of Hana's - may have to start thinking of getting a replacement regardless as my SH is just too low.
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I had the same problem with a Dynavector DV2XL cartridge. Bought it used, cantilever was straight but suspension was collapsed. Stupid me for not trying the used cartridge when I first got it. I will say even though the cartridge suspension had collapsed, it still sounded glorious if you could get over the scraping sound on the record. Andy at the Needle Clinic fixed it for me but don’t remember price. I do remember thinking that it was quite reasonable to me. |
Don't send your Hana cartridge to re-tippers! It's the worst you can do, once they will touch it you will not be able to send it to the manufacturer. Contact the manufacturer first and let them fix or upgrade you with genuine cartridge. This is relatively new inexpensive model, so why do you need all those re-tippers who normally work with old junk or overpriced carts for those who can't afford the manufacturer cost? |
In my experience, the "hours" of play actually on a cartridge bear more on stylus wear than suspension collapse-- which I think can happen when a cartridge is relatively new (the part-time audiophile site had a review of an Airtight Supreme, and shortly thereafter the reviewer said "it’s drooping, it is gonna skid on some records." 0r some such). Turns out it was defective, and given the cartridge was virtually new, no issue in replacing. I’m gonna agree with @chakster on this one, perhaps for different reasons. The Hana is an under 1k retail cartridge new and the cost of having someone like Steve at VAS (who in my estimation is great and is price conscious) is not going to add up, value wise. I would do as Chakster says and reach out to whoever the importer/distributor is where you are; if it is a couple years old, they can probably avoid a warranty replacement, but they may give you some joy. Otherwise, I think it’s back to market time-- and I would not necessarily hold this against Hana- happens to the nicest people and cartridges. Good luck and let us know what chu do. :) (Sucks, I know- hate it when anything is amiss, it’s my OCD side). Don’t ask what’s on the other side. Two other things- @chakster- he may be better dealing with the importer in the first instance. Getting stuff in and out of Japan pronto is very costly--likely DHL, at least if the OP is in the US (I don't know). If the distributor dismisses it, I’d then reach out to Japan-- perhaps an email. And to the OP- buy a tally counter- you know those hand held clickers used to count heads, chickens, or chicken heads? Perfect for keeping tabs on how many sides you play. It doesn’t take a math genius to approximate hours from that-- I’m no math genius, I assure you, but the idea was given to me a few years ago and now I’d feel naked without it. (You get used to hitting the clicker if you keep it near the table and start to make a habit of it). |
That is too bad for sure i have used cartridges from the seventies and their suspensions are still as good as new makes me wonder if something else caused the problem or they are not made to last. Same here, carts from the 70's, 80's and 90's including cartridges made by the same manufacturer (Excel Sound Inc) who's now making Hana! 3 MC cartridges from Excel Sound Inc (the manufacturer of Hana today) from the mid 80's are still fine! |
I had a Hana SL that was starting to do that as well. It had 300 hours on it. I replaced it with a new Benz Micro Wood Cartridge, and it did the same with about 400 hours on it. Both were less than 2 years old. All on a VPI arm that was set up properly. I’ve been spinning vinyl for over 50 years, and know how to set up things, and never had such issues before. I got the dealer to send me a new Benz which I promptly sold. You likely don’t want to hear this but that was the last straw for me. I am now happily in the digital camp.... streaming Tidal into a high quality tubed DAC and I don’t regret it at all. Goodbye to all the fussiness of turntable set up, tonearms/cartridge matching issues, phono preamp loadings, record cleaning, stylus cleaning, noisy pressing, etc. etc. Some people just love the ritual of that. Not me. Digital, when done right, is just as satisfying to me as analog was, but it took a lot of trial and error to optimize my digital source to get there. Now I can just relax and enjoy the music. |
Long live the replaceable stylus!!! This is just one reason I don’t have any MC cartridges. Ive been relaxing and enjoying the music from vinyl for over 50 years. Tidal doesn’t have half my collection. If playing vinyl records was tedious and troublesome, I would have realized I was doing something wrong, long ago. |
Yes, I second/third the suggestion going through the dealer to discuss repair/replacement/upgrade options. Hana warranties only run for two years but they might take pity on you and give you a good deal. I'm running a Technics SL1200mk2 with a Hana SL and it works really well with the standard Technics head shell (tried the LP Gear Zupreme, couldn't quite get it to work well). I DID have a Denon DL-301MKII cantilever collapse to the record surface one time, but it was still a fairly new cartridge and under warranty so Denon swapped it out for a replacement fairly quickly. I could see how aggressive cleaning (especially with an ONZOW Zerodust stylus cleaner) could compromise a delicate cantilever assembly, but if you've been spinning records for some time you know to handle them gently. |
I would like to hear what Hana or the dealer does. Historically, because it is so easy to damage a cartridge, unless the cartridge is brand new they will laugh at you. I have never seen this happen to a MM or MI cartridges. With MCs it is a not uncommon event. The tether is held tight by a little set screw which for a number of reasons did not get a firm grip on it so it started slipping. It is a simple task to retention the wire and re set the screw but it takes a special microscope to do it. If Hana doesn't respond I bet Soundsmith will re set it for an hour's labor. |
I would like to hear what Hana or the dealer does. Historically, because it is so easy to damage a cartridge, unless the cartridge is brand new they will laugh at you. The stylus is not damaged, but suspension collapsed too early. They can accept this defective cartridge towards upgrade to the next model, in this case buyer will pay less than retail price. Every dealer should do that as they can earn money again. And the buyer will get new cartridge (next model). P.S. I did it with much more expensive ZYX cartridge via US distributor. |
As I mentioned up-stream The dealer’s offer (Music Direct) was 20% trade-in value from my original purchase price towards an upgrade. I’m hoping Musical Surroundings, the Hana US Distributor, will take pity on me and either repair/replace the cartridge, or give me full (or better than 20%) trade-in for another cartridge. |
erikt I contacted Music Direct, who I bought the cartridge from.Frankly, I'm surprised by this response from Music Direct and I'd be disappointed if I were the customer. This is a warranty claim and you did business with MD - it's the dealer's job to help you file the claim. (The dealer can help verify the date of purchase and ensure the product is genuine US product.) Option #1 is almost an insult and the other two options are just polite ways of telling you to take a hike. Hopefully Musical Surroundings will do the right thing. Please keep us posted. |
I have a van den Hul Grasshopper IV that did that. The naked coils and cantilever went all floppy. I found I could judiciously push the assembly back into its housing and all was well for a few plays. Then it went floppy again. I sent it back to vdH and the man said I was tracking it too heavy. Nonsense. I was right on his recommendation. Anyway, he had fixed it. But after a month or two it went floppy again. I've sidelined it now. I push the assembly in again and set it up every now and again. Its sound is excellent but it soon goes floppy again. I have three other high-end vdHs and no trouble. |
@clearthinker- that's too bad- those cartridges are well regarded; haven't heard one in years. You know, there is another participant here at Audiogon with a similar "handle" but he typically speaks in triplets-that is, anything said, spoken or written is usually put forth, portrayed or documented by statements, comments or other input that is tripled, three'd or done in trio. You are not he/him/they. Thanks upthread for the roadrunner jokes. We are going on a local jaunt soon, and I hope to see some. (Finally). |
It looks like the warranty goes 2 years from the shipping date. I’d like to know what MS will do for you. http://www.youtek.jp/pdf/manual/manual_hana_2017s.pdf |
erikt, I had a defective Clearaudio cartridge and dealt with Musical Surroundings. Actually, I messaged Elusive Disc about the problem and they notified Musical Surroundings who then called me! I had a new cartridge and a shipping label for the old one in three days. It was a very new cartridge but I still thought it an extraordinary experience. I'm sure they will accommodate you. I bet they send you a new one under warranty. Put the stylus down on a record and take close up shots and include a straight shot of the undamaged cantilever and stylus. send those to them and it will be obvious the tether wire let go which should not happen without enough force to damage the cantilever. That will prove your case. And stay as polite as Emily Post. You are heart broken and in tears because you can't listen to music. You know the routine :-) |
Here are my options from both Music Direct (the dealer) and Musical Surroundings (the US Distributor): 1. 30% credit of original purchase price off an exchange for another/same Hana SH 2. 20% credit of original purchase price off an upgrade for a different cartridge Not sure if I want to go the retip/repair route as I'm soured on the Hana experience. I could still pay to get it repaired and THEN try to sell it myself, or just sell it 'as is'. Gonna have to think this over for a bit. |
Not really a great series of options, is it? I'm of the view that it is not worth sinking more money into this cartridge, but call Steve at VAS, explain the problem (you are free to use my name- he knows me as Bill Hart fwiw) and see what he says. Maybe he can fix it without replacing the cantilever. My suspicion is that even if it costs say, only $200 to fix, it might be good money after bad from your point of view. Given that few cartridges are sold for full retail in my experience, you should shop for what you want and what will work best with your system in terms of voicing, mass of arm, etc. I know a lot of people like Soundsmith, not just because of the lower cost of refurbishing but the sound. I know Peter, but don't know his cartridge line well enough to advise you and never owned one of his cartridges. I do keep a number of good cartridges here, so if one had to go back to the manufacturer for a rebuild, I have others to take its place. That's a thought too, longer range. I know we want to budget so we spend on something that delivers the most sonic goods, rather than having two examples that are mediocre, but over time, you could build up your cartridge collection. |
FWIW Hana cartridges are somewhat notorious for riding pretty low…Google it and you’ll find other comments and pictures stating/showing as much. I have a Hana ML with about 200 hours on it and every once in a while the bottom of the cart will brush against my VPI periphery weight ring — it’s done this since the Hana was brand new. Also, since you mentioned it, I also have an AT-ART9XI. It’s a great cartridge but sounds quite similar to my Hana IMO. In other words, if you like the way your Hana SH sounds but you just want “more,” the ART9XI is a solid choice. Anyway, take that FWIW… |
I was actually considering the ART9XI, but the resonance calcs for my setup put it at just *under* 7Hz. I was waffling between a Sumiko Songbird LOMC and the Audio Technica AT33SA - and went with the AT. I grumbled with MD on the measly 20% credit for the bad Hana, but that's all I got. Once I get everything sorted out and back up, I'll post some listening impressions. Time to move - thanks for all the input! |
I was actually considering the ART9XI, but the resonance calcs for my setup put it at just *under* 7Hz. Did you convert 100Hz to 10Hz before you made any calculations? The compliance measured at 100Hz: 15 x 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz) In reality at 10Hz it will be 25.5 cu which is fine for your Technics tonearm! |
Never had an issue such as one described by TS. MC or MM all with hundreds of hours of use on each, never had an issue. Clean records, regular maintenance, use of LAST including Stylast. Meticulous table alignment, vta, vtf, sra, antiskate, antistatic gun, etc. Personal “hygiene “ and kid gloves when record playing are important. All that said, one question in my setup: how long will cartridge (w/o stylus) last? Let’s say it is a MM with user-replaceable stylus. So typical MM Shure, AT or Ortofon.
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