Monkey bone?
Plus and Minus
Got into a discussion with a few fellow musician audiophiles.
Issue one: The fidelity of home playback versus live music. After much bantering about, it became, 'How can you tell?" If you didn't hear it live or you don't listen to live music, how can you say your playback system is true to live? Interesting question. I put forward, if your monkey bone tells you it is live - then it is live. After all, who's to say what you hear and what someone else hears is true to live or not. If you like it - its live to you.
Second issue: How can you tell if a tweak is positive or negative? If put it in, did it bring you closer? When you take it out, did it make it worse? I put forward the notion that if you put it in and listen to it for a bit and then take it out, the question becomes did it take you there or take you away? After all, you listened to your system without it and you know how it sounded; putting something in changes it (presumably) and only after taking it out can you judge if you really like it or not or are you enamored with it. On this, there was general agreement.
Lastly, does 'how much you paid' factor into the equation? That was universally shot down. There are incredible audio values in a specific piece that belay its cost. You just gotta hunt them down. There was agreement that there was a law of diminishing returns. I put forth the notion that the chase for the best knows no boundary save the wallet. The smiles and nods were universal on this point. The law being: If you can afford it ....
Funny hobby we have. The monkey bone should guide us and the wallet supporting us; yet, we argue about what each other hears and neither side has the same bone n' wallet. :-)
Issue one: The fidelity of home playback versus live music. After much bantering about, it became, 'How can you tell?" If you didn't hear it live or you don't listen to live music, how can you say your playback system is true to live? Interesting question. I put forward, if your monkey bone tells you it is live - then it is live. After all, who's to say what you hear and what someone else hears is true to live or not. If you like it - its live to you.
Second issue: How can you tell if a tweak is positive or negative? If put it in, did it bring you closer? When you take it out, did it make it worse? I put forward the notion that if you put it in and listen to it for a bit and then take it out, the question becomes did it take you there or take you away? After all, you listened to your system without it and you know how it sounded; putting something in changes it (presumably) and only after taking it out can you judge if you really like it or not or are you enamored with it. On this, there was general agreement.
Lastly, does 'how much you paid' factor into the equation? That was universally shot down. There are incredible audio values in a specific piece that belay its cost. You just gotta hunt them down. There was agreement that there was a law of diminishing returns. I put forth the notion that the chase for the best knows no boundary save the wallet. The smiles and nods were universal on this point. The law being: If you can afford it ....
Funny hobby we have. The monkey bone should guide us and the wallet supporting us; yet, we argue about what each other hears and neither side has the same bone n' wallet. :-)
21 responses Add your response
To hear it live would have to be done in an acoustic manner. Any amplification or engineering of the music while playing isn't live, except in the sense that it's being done right in front of you. So your friends can't really argue that you don't know what it sounds like unless you were there, unless that live (doctored) performance is the standard against which things are being measured. As for tweaks, I experiment before settling on what I feel sounds best. I've even gone back, after some time, to see if I hear anything differently, only to find out it was a waste of time to do so, since I heard it right in the first instance. Our ears are very refined so when that sound hits my monkey bone, gives me the warm and fuzzies, blows my skirt up, or makes me forget my troubles, that is when I know it sounds right, because it's so convincing as to suspend disbelief and I relax and enjoy for no other reason than that. As for costs, it's all personal and rather selfish, in my case. I have my priorities and sometimes better music wins out, allowing me to indulge, within my limits. All the best, Nonoise |
I have no idea what you mean by "if you like it, it's live to you." That completely undermines your original distinction between live and recorded--that's the question at issue. (There are plenty of recordings I prefer to what I've heard live. That doesn't make them less engineered). Also "live" music is not stable. It depends on the nature of the hall, how close you are, and where you sit. So to say that a recording should 'reproduce' this sound can only mean 'reproduce' the sound at a particular point in a 3-dimensional hall. Even then, I can't imagine any reliable way to test this. |
1. "I have no idea what you mean by "if you like it, it's live to you." That completely undermines your original distinction between live and recorded--that's the question at issue". 2. "Our ears are very refined so when that sound hits my monkey bone, gives me the warm and fuzzies, blows my skirt up, or makes me forget my troubles, that is when I know it sounds right, because it's so convincing as to suspend disbelief and I relax and enjoy for no other reason than that". 3. "Monkey bone?" 1. The start of the discussion. 2. The end of the discussion.. 3. The no clue. No need to respond more. It kinda says it all, eh? :-) |
He's a musician, pay attention... Audiofilers should listen.. # 2 is one of the best way to see if things got the mojo going on.. plain and simple.. Not install, oh wow it changed the world, BUT.. that warm and fuzzy, makes you forget the tweak.. I get what he's saying.. #3 is easy for me to understand, because of my best friend. YUP in Sheldon,Washington. Hech of a musician. You'd swear he has a 1% patch somewhere. A true gentleman, though. He has got the Martin bug BAD.. Gosh he can play those things... MERCY...Pick up a sax at one time and just tear it up.. (wind issue now), keyboards. Sing like an angle, and play WELL at the same time.. I'm telling you he could have given Page or Clapton a run for their money... Jimmy NO... He's really into playback now laying down track, his time is short. He want's his stuff recorded..He did it himself.. He's changed his tune a little when it comes to the audiophile world. He understands. THEY will argue with the guy that make the music... No idea how to make it but love to listen and argue, why an amp don't match well with speakers, or a cable change, will open up a pair of speakers.. They usually scratch their head and walk away, and then take the cotton out of their ears, and say. What's that mate? What's that mate.. LOL Regards |
Recreating live music is a fantasy. What we do instead is, everything has its own sound character. Its not necessary to match exactly the live sound to create the impression of the actual instruments. The system is merely the last link in the whole chain of recording, mastering, duplicating, and finally playing back. Its technically impossible for the last link in the chain to produce something that was never there to begin with. It was lost in the very beginning at the microphone. What is there are patterns highly recognizable as belonging to certain real live music. Every link in the chain loses, adds, or changes a little something. The components or tweaks that do the least of this are the best. If this is your goal then there is no diminishing returns- I sure haven't seen it- there is only better and better. |
Issue one: I don't understand the need to simulate live music. I mean, that's kind of a Disney World thrill to fool one's senses — "Is it live or recorded?" But isn't the true thrill in connecting with the music, regardless of whether one thinks they're in a perfect simulation or not? I would contend that any hard requirement to be fooled into thinking something is live is a hangup that shows someone cannot "listen through" to the music. Now, an oboe should sound like an oboe, and a guitar like a guitar. But that's just accuracy, not simulation. Second issue: Not sure I followed this. It seems to say that to evaluate a tweak you need to know how it sounds in and out of the system. This seems to answer itself. Last issue, the chase for the best has another boundary besides the wallet. And that boundary is when the "chase for the best" becomes obsessive. Once someone has forgotten the music, they no longer know what "the best" is anymore, and so any standards related to actual "audio values" are destroyed. They become Ahab hunting Moby Dick. |
When I first started looking for real high end components it was back in the early 90's and I did like a lot of guys still do and brought my little collection of "reference" CDs with me. Had my little list of sonic attributes to listen for and check off too. All very formulaic and I had it down. One day I track down a McCormack DNA1 and its so wonderfully reviewed I'm really excited even though its a long drive. But the dealer made me come in early and I said sure no problem but leave the amp on overnight I don't want it stone cold. Which that is the first thing I see, a stone cold amp! But oh well I have my CDs and my formula and so I start listening. Few minutes later I come out of the trance to realize I have forgotten all about my stupid checklist and even better, the reason I forgot is because this amp sounds so freaking organically you are there real! I knew that instant that a) this is the amp for me and b) reference disks and checklists are for the birds. From then on its feelings. You guys just have different weird names for it. Really we are talking about the same thing. At least, I think we are.... |
keesue The fidelity of home playback versus live music. After much bantering about, it became, ’How can you tell?" If you didn’t hear it live or you don’t listen to live music, how can you say your playback system is true to live?Trying to recreate "live sound" is elusive. The best you can hope for is to get close to the master tape. If you make your own recordings - and it amazes me how few audiophiles are willing to do that - you’ll know for yourself how close you are. Funny hobby we have. The monkey bone should guide us ...Huh? Is a "monkey bone" some sort of voodoo prop, such as eye of newt or wool of bat? I’d suggest that for audiophiles, reason should prevail. That’s worked well for me for many years, and not just for audio matters. |
Both of the first issues have to do with the reason you buy stuff. For personal enjoyment. We can in fact compare live music to a system and try to recreate that experience, but... I usually don’t want to. I want it to sound good to me. Same with tweaks. We also run into the lack of visual experience in our systems. Lacking the eyesight of the performance we may seek to compensate for it with exaggerated imaging cues, Like Kurosawa adding smoke to a live volcano so the sense of heat transfers better off the film. Personally, I do not care what your guiding light is, so long as it’s your taste and your wallet that are involved and no one else. I’ve become universally disillusioned with the notion that high-end = exorbitant prices. I don’t buy gear to brag to my friends of the weight of my system or the multiple 8 gauge power lines I had drawn from a personal nuclear reactor to power my system. This is especially true with speakers. The list of speakers over $10K I have listened to which I felt were worth it are perhaps 3 brands. Under this amount though, I've heard lots of speakers I could recommend. Best, Erik |
Erik, if you could, would you. if you could and had all the means, would you buy the absolute best you could buy? OR Does any of that play into it? I know you like quality sound, have you gotten where you won’t be changing things. Done that’s it? I sure was for 16 plus years...Very close again, but I’m pretty happy with my selections... I kept the cost WAY down, except for a few blunders, a cable drop...for one..True "Monkey Bone" experience. Regards |
Recreating live music is a fantasy. What we do instead is, everything has its own sound character. Its not necessary to match exactly the live sound to create the impression of the actual instruments. The system is merely the last link in the whole chain of recording, mastering, duplicating, and finally playing back. Its technically impossible for the last link in the chain to produce something that was never there to begin with. It was lost in the very beginning at the microphone. i agree w miller completely on this one, as he says above using live music as a standard for one’s hifi is utterly ridiculous, given where we are listening do you have any idea what a live drum set, a trumpet , a tenor sax, a double bass or concert grand piano will sound like in your 17x22 living room played at performance level? you would cover your ears, RUN OUT OF THE ROOM it would be so loud - if you stayed in the room and listened for long you would have hearing damage get real boys and girls what we are dealing is a massively scaled down, miniaturized characterization for homebound consumption this NOT recreating reality - that notion should be given a rest, to put it kindly |
The concept of reproducing a live event make no sense in the absolute...For sure... What is a live event? is it what we listen to coming from where the one microphone or where the many microphones are on the stage? Is it where the pianist or the trumpeter are? Or more where the first row listener is, but which one, the middle one,or the one at the right end or left end of the row? last row? There is NO live event.... There is MANY live events... But we choose to record one with one or many microphone... In MY room, what i listen to from MY specific electronic components, which are, i am pleased to think, rightfully embedded with MY devices and method, what i listen to then , has no direct relation with what you will listen to, each of you, from the same cd, nor to what the pianist, the trumpeter or the many different rows listeners listenened to in the alleged " live event" that is different for all of them.... The right question in audio for all of us, except for those who recorded the live event and mix it, the real question is not the problem of how to be faithful to a non existent unique " live event", but how to output the choosen recorded event amongst many possible, with our specific audio system, in our specific room .... The answer to that is simple for me: Dont upgrade, listen many times first, and embed everything, mechanically, electrically and acoustically in the best way... It is a step by step fun experience anyway... Then you will feel your "monkey bone" from the heart beating , this is called an "orgasm"... And buying a costly new audio component will seems with the time passing more and more like a lost of money and a diminushing return on investment and sometimes a not so more useful and wise investment... Audiophile experience come from the ear-brain experience and experiments, not from the money in your pocket at all, and not from a non existent original unique live event... But from a choosen recorded event by the recording egineers that will be different for sure in all house on earth.... Will it sound good in your house? If it sound more than good in my 500 hundred dollars audio system rightfully embedded, why not in your room? Asking this question is the beginning of the solution... A clue: for most of us the solution IS NOT an upgrade of speakers, amplifier or dac .....it is how to embed what we already have.... At the end my truth is that audiophile experience MAY cost peanuts....Do it the right way with your ears and trust them first.... Simple..... And OP it is you that will know if a "tweak" is positive or negative, if you cannot decide it is sign that you must try other thing.... All my embedding devices are low cost, homemade often, and it is not necessary to buy costly tweaks at all to remedy the mechanical, electrical and acoustical dimensions... The only painful action is not so much paying money than paying attention to sound, listening, thats all.... For other clue my thread; "miracles in audio.... " My best to all.... |
