Please tutor me on some integrated amp basics.

Well, you could try $560 DiMarzio Super M-path speaker cables with spade connectors from thecableco.com or even Mogami with banana connectors on ebay from Japan for about $130. I know DiMarzio M-path interconnects, still have them. They are..okay. DiMarzio cables are wildly used by electric guitar players. Those Super M speaker cables are said to be better than interconnects, but they are not exactly free.

Mike, you are not doomed but you got high end components that do require high end interface. Usually, audiophiles gradually improve their systems, with some errors and sometimes surprises. Many buy used, if they can find what they look for. It might take years to get it right, especially if you can't spend much. But even if you can you have to listen and compare and develop what I call audiophile instinct. It takes time to develop. Another thought, an analogy. Take good acoustic guitar, you can put different strings on it of equal quality and the guitar will sound both the same and different. Gut strings, nylon strings, metal strings ? It depends. If you were going to listen to mostly rock music or heavy metal I would not have recommended Neptune because it would be waist of money. With that kind of music you don't need such resolution, details, soundstage, harmonic texture and very low distortion. With jazz, vocal, different acoustic music, classical it's different. And yet another consideration. Some members who participate on Audiogon forum do not listen to records or tape, they only have digital source. If they can take it, their opinion on the sound and equipment doesn't have much weight. By the way, when trying to get some information on Poseidon couple of years ago I could find virtually nothing. In the past quite a number of Audiogon old time members used Purist cables, now I don't hear much about them.
Anyway, today I went to supermarket and spend $120. I didn't buy much, it felt expensive and it was. $1300 speaker cables look cheap by comparison. 

Mike

I forgot to disclose the characteristics of those cables.

Audio Note give detailed and transparent sound and I use them for speaker cables and interconnect between DAC and my integrated amplifiers.


Analysis Audio give neutral and balanced sound.

I use Analysis Audio cables for power cables and digital interconnect.

I also use some Synergistic Research power cable.


Since Magico A3 is detailed and on the bright side not like Harbeth,

I thinks basic cable of Analysis Audio will work well in your system.



Later you can try some expensive ones.

Cable swapping can be fun and also give headache to you.

I had done cable swapping for more than 10 years and I am fed up with it now.



Cables are dependent on system and personal taste.

There is no best cable in the world.

It is like women depending on personal taste.


Thomas

kosst_amojan
Cables aren't hard to build either.

No, it’s not hard to build cables per se. However building cables that truly sound superior is a horse of a different color and requires some special knowledge and skills beyond what most people probably would be thinking. For example, almost all high end cables are cryogenically treated. 

Mike

If you have no experience of high end audio cables, then I highly recommend Analysis Audio basic levels.

I have both Audio Note and Analysis Audio cables.

Basic(low level) Analysis Audio cables can match 90% of the performance of Audio Note Cables at 1/6 price.

Thomas

Mike

Look into the cables from Audio Sensibility in Toronto.  The have a 30 day trial period with free shipping.  In addition as their prices are listed in Canadian Dollars you price is about 3/4 of that listed.  You can buy them in either OCC copper or silver.  As they are Internet Direct only you save on the distributor/dealer markup.  Another company to look into is Cabledyne also ID sales.  

Jetter, Honestly I’m not sure what the wisest path is on cabling and am open to any and all ideas before plunking down some cash. Maybe there’s no avoiding the expensive ones, but it won’t be for lack of trying on my part. I’ve recently spent a small fortune on all new components and really want to get on to something else. Only these damnable cables are holding me back from that now. I’ll just have to keep researching until I’m convinced that I’ve no choice but to buy these ridiculously expensive wires. How’s that for sniveling and complaining?

Inna, don’t remind me. I know I’m doomed, but am still trying to find some way to squirm out of it.

Mike

I will not argue once again about the value of good cables. Pro cables will not be enough for this set up, not even close. That's all I will say.

Kosst_amojani, you’re truly fortunate and skilled to be able to build them on your own. Unfortunately my skills are in other areas. I’ll look you up if I’m ever considering monoblocks.

Jetter, well I did stay married to my late wife for almost 30 years and kept and used my original stereo equipment for forty years. But my advice on either subject would be suspect at best.

I’ve never had "audiophile" quality cables. If I decide it’s worthwhile to purchase a relatively expensive set, I’d like to do it once and once only. I’m not into switching components, or wives for that matter, a costly endeavour in either event. I might go the interim route you suggest if I decide to defer investing in pricier cables to a later date in favor of other things outside of the audiophile realm. Thanks for your sensible advice.

Ieales, I’m suspicious of the cable burn in concept too, and have heard like you said, connectors should be moved around or cleaned every so often due to corrosion. I’ve been doing that forever, but only after the effects of that corrosion become audible. Shame on me. Congratulations on being an engineering dinosaur. I suspected you might be an engineer from the import of your posts.

I looked up the Belden 1311A cable, the in wall speaker CL3 type. It certainly seemed economical. What did you do to make it into a "in a self-designed bi-wire", if you don’t mind my asking? For a couple of short ten foot lengths I might be able to replicate what you’ve done I’ve done a fair amount of wiring in my day, mostly home and hydronics stuff like building a relay station, so maybe I could pull it off. I’ll check out your link. Maybe you explained it there.

Sounds like you and your friend listened to some good music on fine equipment. I auditioned my Magico A3’s in part with some 45rpm Stevie Ray Vaughn the dealer had on hand. Joe Pass, Charles Mingus, Barney Kessel, and Clifford Brown are right up my alley too. I brought some Mingus to that same demo too.

Maybe I’ll try burning in my new equipment playing it for a couple days straight like you said. Hopefully the Luxman 507ux integrated amp won’t catch fire. I read it runs a bit hot. Take care,

Mike

I use Transparent Audio interconnects and Belden 1311A speaker cable in a self-designed bi-wire. Every few months I replug connectors as IMO, cables don't burn in, connections deteriorate. But hey, I'm a dinosaur engineer from the last century.

Transparents mate well with my taste in electronics and the speaker cables work well with the my loudspeakers, the failings of each complimenting. See http://ielogical.com/Audio/#CableQuest for past cable tribulations.

A lifelong pal & his missus visited us this week. We began our audio odysseys as boys, grooving to his guitar and upright bass playing father's Pass, Kessel, Mingus and Brown and my dad's Harry James, Satchmo, etc.

He's a live music fan, the aforementioned Pass and Kessel to Stevie Ray Vaugh and Joe Bonamassa.

I asked him the favor of a listen. Listening to Joe Pass Virtuoso, his first three words were "Wow! - Wow! - Awesome!" I knew he was grooving because his toe was tapping and his head was bopping. Later on Stevie Ray Vaughn, "Man, I can hear everything. I feel like I could get up and walk around among the musicians. Nothing competes and nothing gets lost no matter how thick." His dad said something similar when he visited us 30 years ago about a system that was north of $30k in 80's dollars.

No one has ever commented on tonal balance when listening to one of my systems because they are drawn into the music, not pushed away by the sound

BTW, we used burn in new studio drivers for about 24-48 hours continuous. Ditto amps. But, hey, what did we know, we only had live musicians on the other side of the glass for reference. 500 hours? Poppycock!

Kosst_amojan,  My Magico A3's were mentioned to need 300 hours. 

Those Pass XA100.8's weigh in at a heavyweight 99 lbs. making my 55 lb. Luxmans seem anorexic in comparison. They didn't feel that way carrying them up a flight of stairs though. I would have liked a Pass Amp if they hadn't been out of my price range, and so heavy.

Mike

Exactly. But it may be less than 500.

500 hours, that's like listening to over a thousand record sides. I suppose I could start working through my entire record collection. Since I only get in a couple of hours listening tops each night this might take a while. I suppose I could leave some background music playing each day if I'm inside.

Mike

Mike, yes they will. But don't forget about burn-in time, the difference before and after can be dramatic. I don't know how many hours, but you will hear when the sound stops changing. Speakers and even some electronics might not reach their full potential before 500 hours.

Another road trip is now over. Picked up my Luxman L-507uXII integrated amp today. Let's hope it synergizes well with my new Magico A3's when they arrive in February. It's built like a brick, and weighs a ton. It should last forever from the looks of it. 

Mike

Ieales, have you mentioned what cables you're using? I'm curious as to what you have and why you chose, or like them. Like anybody else, I'd prefer to find less expensive ones that do correlate with good performance. In the end I'll pay what I have to, to not have cables that perform inadequately with the Magico A3's, that I purchased expressly for their detailed sound. I don't expect cables and the like to improve my new system,  I do expect them to not mess it up, or waste my hard earned life savings. 

I'm still having a hard time with seeing how costly a few feet of wire can be, research costs or not.  I'll sort it out eventually. I've only had a couple days to research so far and am basking in my own ignorance, which is a sure fire recipe to make poor, if not costly decisions in a market that smells rife with hucksterism. I had 25+ years working in Corrections before retiring. It's a familiar odor.


Mike

choosing cables can be a true nightmare

It's only nightmare because people have unreasonable expectations fueled by ridiculous manufacturer claims and utter nonsense from non-technical self-appointed experts.

Plain and simple, cables are subtle equalizers modifying frequency and phase response. ALL source material has varying frequency and phase response depending on the devices used to record .

On some program a particular cable may be 'magic' and all others, mud. The more outlandish the cable, the more likely the latter.

All too often, people are hoping for a magic pill to fix defects that reside elsewhere.

Pricing has very little correlation to performance except with small subset of components.

Caveat Emptor!

Thanks Inna,

Mike

One last thought. You could, theoretically speaking, go with Purist tonearm cable too if you choose Purist speaker cables. Poseidon or Neptune, copper wire. I don't know the prices, unfortunately I cannot upgrade my tonearm cable, it's one piece, I would have to have complete arm rewiring done. But VPI tonearm cable should work very well with your table. There is almost always something better, that's an opportunity and a problem.

Mike, keep us informed. Many people read Audiogon threads, your situation is quite common and choosing cables can be a true nightmare.
Good luck.

I hear you Inna, I’ve spent so much lately getting the Magico’s, VPI Classic 2 and now the Luxman L-507uXII I have to stop being extravagant for a time. I’ve some other expenditures to consider what with building a workshop and a few other things. Instead I’ll trying studying cables for a while and figure out what I want to do. I’ll find a way to make due, until I feel the time is right to make another investment in the system. I'll keep the Poseidons and Neptunes in mind.

Mike

I think, the price is about right. Two years ago when I still had older Purist interconnects, I asked Jim of Purist what he would recommend to go significantly higher. He said - Poseidon. I eventually decided to go with Neptune, though it seemed terribly expensive for me.

I found some Poseidons for around $1300 for 3 meters. The Neptunes would have sunk my financial ship. Maybe I could stay afloat with a Poseidon adventure. I’ll look into them.

Mike

In any case, with Magico speakers I would go with copper wires only unless it is top of the line, then it could be silver or alloy as well, maybe. Your speakers are on a cooler analytical side of neutral.
If you cannot afford Neptune you might consider Poseidon model, which should be half the price and should be excellent too, but I haven't heard it.

Sorry, 2 meters pair are $2034, 2.5 meters pair are about $200 more.

Mike, no, don't look at the suggested retail prices, street prices are much lower. I checked two weeks ago with one dealer. Purist Audio Neptune speaker cables with spades 2.5 meter pair are $2050, brand new, not demo not return.

Inna, thank you for the contacts. Last night I looked up the price for a pair of the length Audio Design Neptune fluid cables I'd need, about three yards long. They were running well over three thousand dollars a pair, which is unfortunately well out of my price range.  You're fortunate to own some. I'll be done paying off my VPI turntable in a couple weeks and will go ahead and buy the VPI cables you suggested to get started. 

I'll have to do a lot more research on cables next, which appears to be a fairly complex subject to sort out.  

Mike

Mike, I am not a technical person and can't judge the design from this point of view. You can talk to Jim Aud of Purist Audio, he replies quickly, and ask him any questions. He is a former NASA engineer specializing in underwater signal transmission and he has been making cables for over 30 years. Aqueous fluid cable was his original cable. You can also talk to Audiogon member albertporter who is now Purist dealer as well. He personally has been using these cables from the very beginning of their existence, though he always has top of the line.
As for the sound, I'll spare you all the audiophile jargon, they are exquisite sophisticated cables with incredible soundstage. They do nothing wrong and almost everything right. 
I would not rush with buying expensive power cord for Luxman. First, I would get tonearm cable and speaker cables and would listen for a few weeks or month with either stock Luxman cord or, say, $200 Audio Art Classic cord. 300 hours of burn in time for Purist, less for Audio Art. Then you could decide where to go next. It would also to a degree depend on how much electrical work on your house wiring you were going to do. But if you want to get everything at the same time and everything new, that's more difficult and possibly more expensive. Getting cabling perfectly right is tough even with unlimited budget.

Inna, fortunately I have until February, when the Magico’s hopefully arrive, to study and make choices on the wiring.Rest assured I will not call you names due to your suggestions, even when they haul me into bankruptcy court. At your suggestion, I will see what information I might find out about the Purist Audio Design Neptune fluid cables. What do you like about those cables? Is there something special about their design you are aware of, or is it simply the results from listening to your system with them? If you never see them used, that is a good sign, like my having to wait another five months to get my Magicos.

Kapa11, I looked into the Pass Labs integrated amps, before purchasing my Luxman integrated amp last week, and was quite impressed. If I could have afforded them, I very well might have purchased them. I still do not wish to purchase new for the aforementioned reasons, even if I could get a better product. I feel the risk is not worth the reward and don’t want the headaches of repairs to worry about when I live so far out in the country, away from but one high end service person. I’ve been there, and done used that in other realms. I won’t buy a used car for the same reasons, unless you happen to have a used low mileage ’55 Mercedes you’re thinking of parting with.

My sister still has and uses a complete set of Carver equipment from years ago she still uses. You remember those big trapezoidal shaped speakers he designed after moving on from Phase Linear. Her system still works perfectly. Thank you for your suggestions.

Mike

Mike, you can call me names, but I read thru some threads on Audiogon, thought about it a little, and if I were to take a wild guess taking into account everything, I would say that unless you value ultimate high frequency extension at the expense of other things, very probably the best speaker cables for your Luxman/Magico duo would be Purist Audio Design Neptune fluid cables. That would be $2000, and there is nothing I can do about it. I suspect you could get away with something for $1000 but it would not be the same, possibly not even close. The alternatives could be - Echole and Stage III Concepts brands - more expensive.
Yes, I use Neptune interconnects. I have never seen them used for sale since the time of their introduction, and many have been sold.
You could try some Wywire, Audience and Acoustic Zen copper cables but..

Hello, I strongly believe that you must put aside any prejudice regarding purchasing used.

the A3´s are also on my bucket list.

My humble opinion is that for this kind of Speaker, you need:

1-Lots of Power
2-Class A/B
3-An Amp capable of low loads.


After doing lots of research on my own, since the A3 are also on my watch list and Integrated Amps for me are the best choice as well, I have narrowed a few AMPS FOR THIS SPEAKER.

But take in account than in order to fulfill this "perfect match" and stick within budget you must purchase used.

So my ultimate choice to feed the A3´s are:

1-PASS LABS

*INT-150 (discontinued)
*INT-250 

I personally have 3 AMPS now, among them I have the INT-30A but it wouldn't be a good match for the A3´s. So I could sell the INT-30 or trade it maybe at Reno Hi Fi, they are the uppermost specialist of PASS LABS in the Whole USA. They Buy, Sell, Trade, and when you sell an item to them, they will send it back to Pass to be refurbished. So basically you are buying almost new products for half the price.

I purchased the INT-30 from them for half the price as new.


From their web site:

"PASS Refurbished Product DOES guarantee that the product will perform like new, that the product has not been modified by a consumer, and that you are getting product designed as Pass Labs intended. And the one-year factory transferable warranty is your assurance of continued performance"


2-Boulder

* 865 Integrated Amplifier

This is a match made in HEAVEN , MAGICO + BOULDER

Rarely seen on the USED market, and still in production.

If you are lucky to find one for sale, it will retail around 6,000 - 7,000


3-Wells Audio

*Majestic Integrated Amp with Phono Stage. $4399 NEW

http://www.wellsaudio.com/majestic/

If you definitely want NEW this could be your best choice :

150 wpc at 8 ohms


ALSO Modwright could be a good match. But I would consider first the 3 of the above.



I am 46 years old, Audiophile since the age of 15!

I have been a subscriber of a dozen of magazines, publications, blogs, etc of Audio since then. I spent hours and hours on the web reading about Brands, Products, etc.

I have had many audio systems thru the years among the Amplifiers I have had:

1-Carver  (When I was 15)
2-McIntoish (When I was 18)
3-Krell (Keep it many years)
4-Nakamichi w/Stasis
5-Goldmund 
6-Cello
7-Carry
8-Redgum (Australia)  tube like and very good with low loads.
9-Shindo Labs
10-Pass Labs


And at least to my ears , nothing comes close to PASS, not even my SHINDO amp nor Goldmund or Cello.

I hope I have contributed with my 2 cents.

Regards

Inna, Certainly interesting, but not easy to figure out for sure. I’ll try to find some described as "linear, balanced, clear, harmonically correct" to audition at home once the components are all here.

Twoch. I heard them demoed with ss and they sounded great, not to mention the Hegel H360’s Alon Wolf recommended were ss. I thought maybe tubes might not be as synergistic with a speaker designed to be more detailed and analytic, prompting his recommend. I have no idea anyway, just guessing.

I did think about that aspect about the Magico’s needing a bit more warmth, and the Luxmans were described that way in one review. more in the midrange if I recall. I thought I was making a wild enough decision straying from his Hegel 360 recommendation, much less going over to a tube amp. A Magico VP I spoke with also recommended another solid state integrated as an alternative to the Hegel. I didn’t want Magico to be thinking of me as a warm, cuddly sissy either for considering a nice warm tube amp, so I toed the line with ss.

Yysantabara, that’s a good question, please keep it here. I’d be interested in the answer. I would have loved to have that Mark Levinson 585, only the fear of potential poverty quenched my desire for it. Same with the Luxman 509x.

Jafant, thanks for replying.

Mike

Putting cost aside for the moment, it is interesting how to best match speaker cables. Though to both, of course, I think one should match them more to the speakers than to the amp. I would not go with either excessively warm cables or too cold, let alone zippy with articulated high frequencies ones. Cables should be linear, balanced, clear, harmonically correct. It might also depend on the kind of music you mostly listen to. Mike is going to listen to a lot of classical jazz, this requires both detailed and sophisticated sound with great imaging and soundstage. I would probably though not necessarily go with the same brand for the amp power cord. Model can be the same or different but the cord must be capable of passing a lot of amperage and be very well shielded. 

skyscraper

No- I have only spent time with the Anthem STR. Both Accuphase and Luxman are on my must demo list as well.  This is another excellent thread. Staying tuned.   Happy Listening!

I think Magico's need tubes bad.
  just my two cents 

@austinbob I saw you had previously commented favorably on the Luxman integrated sound. I was going to get the Mark Levinson 585 for the Magico A3 (great fatigue free sound). However, that system will have to wait due to space issues. The office room I ended up with is only 10Wx12Lx9H and I do not want to put an A3 in there, instead I will get the KEF Reference 1.

I am now considering the following integrateds: Micromega (with MARS), Lyngdorf, and the Luxman 509x (with tone controls). Would you say the Lyngdorf is comparable to the Luxman sound (with tone controls for room adjustment)? If you were given a gift between the two units which would you choose?

This question is slightly divergent from this thread, If annoying I will create a new thread.

This year I sold a Mark Levinson amp and preamp and replaced it with a Lyngdorf 3400 with Room Correction. Couldn’t be happier. That a $7000 integrated equals and in many cases surpasses nearly $20,000 of electronics is amazing. The Lyngdorf is 200W into 8 ohms and 400W into 4, so plenty of power for the Magicos. Worth a demo. The Room Correction obviates the need for external devices like tube traps and panels, etc. It makes a decent room noticeably better and takes 15 minutes to do so. You would still need an external phono stage but $500 will buy a decent external like the IFi. 

Hey Mike, with regard to cables I would really urge you to test first. Most retailers in the UK will allow you to test the Cable first (or offer you a guaranteed refund if not happy) and in the US I believe there is a cable lending company. And importantly: how a cable sounds in your system is not correlated to its price. You’ll probably find some cheaper or mid price cables sounding better than expensive ones.

My recommendation would be to get everything up and running with the basic cables (including your 1970s speaker cable). Then take one bit at a time and experiment with different cables.

Personally I’d start with speaker cables, as you only need one set of cables it is the easiest to work with. So, order up 3 or 4 types and compare. It’s actually really interesting and I find it great fun to do this.

Then power cables. I’d experiment with the component they attach to: keep the standard power cables on everything except one component and test each component in turn. Don’t listen to reviews or other forum views as mains cables are so dependent on your system and your electrical supply. I find some cables make zero difference, others a massive difference. If I take my cables to a friends hifi he gets different results. Then when you find the components that appear to benefit from better mains cabling order up a few types and repeat the experiment.

Finally interconnects. As you have an integrated amp it is a bit simpler, but once again order a few types to compare and don’t believe the hype that you have to use the same interconnect between each pair of components. That is nonsense. You may find your record deck very sensitive to the type of interconnect whereas your CD player may be fine with 10$ cable. Doing the research on my system (integrated Vitus amp and CD player) I found cables by Transparent, costing $1400, sounded no different to $20 cable from an electrical store, yet a $800 Townshend interconnect sounded sublime.


By the way I think your Luxor is a great match to Magico. I have a Vitus amp but before buying it I demoed a bunch of amps: the Luxor sounded fantastic. There is a real organic warmth to that Japanese Luxor sound, almost Tube-like. They sound more musical, less hifi. Just a note: the Luxor I tried sounded a lot better when it was warmed up so you might want to leave it switched on.  I also demoed a bunch of speakers, Magico included. I didn’t actually like the Vitus/Magico combo as for my ears it was a bit too detailed and clinical, but I reckon attached to the mellower Luxor the Magicos will be a dream. It’s all personal taste but for my ears on some modern American amps Magicos can sound dry and clinical, but with the Luxor to tame them I think they will be outstanding.  

  I’d look real hard at the Modwright KWI-200. Absolute beast in its price range . 200 wpc doubles to 400 wpc at 4 ohms. Great amp for demanding loads . I had one without the DAC , I use a Schiit Yiggy. It was paired with Acoustic Zen Speakers . In your price range , good power,  nice sound  and excellent support . The unit with a DAC would allow you to purchase one really nice power cord, some 9 gauge speaker cables and drive your speakers. Mark O Brian is one sharp designer and they are good with repairs and mods . I was introduced to Modwright by a friend that went into law , but was a former music shop owner . He had Rogue, Modwright, Parasound and Bryson. He has examples of them still at his home. At a lower price point the Parasound is nice , but the Modwright is sweeter and something you could live with for a long time . I haven’t played with the Hegel, but would definitely audition one before making a purchase . Cheers , Mike B. 

Mike, sure it would make little sense to buy cables without already having the equipment.
Best cables are often those that you cannot find used, especially for a reasonable price !

Here's another option in that same price range for a tonearm cable. I don't have one, but my speaker cables & interconnects are from DH Labs, and I like them a lot.
https://silversonic.com/products/phono-cables/dimension-phono-cable/

Twoleftears, thanks for some excellent advice/ I'll isolate one of the three 20 amp circuits I wired into the Entertainment (Listening ) Room for the stereo system  only.  I won't buy any cables until after the speakers arrive and I'll check with Uptown Audio and Audiotronics locally to see what they offer and could provide as loaners.  Dealers form DC might be willing to parcel post wires around as opposed to items like amps.  

I'll research isolation transformers too and can probably still haul them around. Maybe not in a few years though. Gravity appears to increasing if you as me.

Ieales. first link is working perfectly now, thanks. Second looks interesting too. I'll read it soon as I'm done with these replies. If we could roll back some of these laws of physics you mentioned maybe the isolation transformers might get a little lighter to deal with.

Builder3, thanks for the link. That wire is almost being given away compared to some of the rest I've run across. Might be a good temporary fix. 

Inna, the VPI cable does sound like a logical choice that wouldn't break the bank. Stupider things have happened, but I don't think VPI would sell a cable that would make their own equipment sound poorly. I think there is some kind of upgraded wiring on the tonearm already with the VPI Classic 2's SE model. Speaker cords and power cable first it is, then. The CD player isn't in the same league as the other equipment anyway.

Amortized over time, none of this is that expensive if you look it it that way. And once an item is paid off it doesn't seem to matter anyway. It's just on to the next thing. I would like to have all this wrapped by the Spring though, so I can get on to my new wood working shop build, incidentally where my old stereo equipment will be utilized. I've got to get that done before I'm too old to lift heavy,  trusses plywood, and shingles up to the roof too. 

Again appreciate all your helpful suggestions. They're music to my ears.

Mike