Phono preamp or SUT for low output moving coil

sgordo, I beg to differ; a SUT has everything to do with the impedance the cartridge will see. There is a direct mathematical correlation, in fact. And the more voltage gain afforded by a SUT, the lower the impedance seen by the cartridge, which will be the input impedance of the phono stage (usually 47K ohms) divided by the square of the turns ratio (which is synonymous with voltage gain). This law of behavior can create difficulties if you want to augment the signal voltage of LOMCs with high internal resistance or low output MI types (because they have relatively very high inductance) using a SUT.

A SUT is just gain. Little if any ability to manage impedance to best match the needs of the cartridge. I would advise finding a photo stage that has the necessary gain plus impedance adjustments. 65 - 70 db is needed. 

Hi Raul,

What is essential for me, and you and I had discussed this some time ago and reached agreement, is that any phono stage must - MUST - accurately amplify the signal it is processing in accordance with the RIAA curve.  The Stellar happens to do this very well.  Everything else, and I mean that literally, is secondary to that requirement.  And yet very few do including many very expensive ones. 

Dear @billstevenson : Always exist the subjective factor and you compared the Stellar against truly expensive units, however  differences are not so big as the price differences.

All electronics have its own limitations  and that subjective factor could makes thatsome audiophileslike it the Stellar over the expensive phono stages. I listened 3-4  times the Stellar and it's not easy to find out its weak because you have evrything from reproduced MUSIC we need with aplomb.

R.

I went down both paths: I had Dave Slagle make me a copper EMIA SUT matched to the specs of my preamp, and I had a Sunvallley Audio SV-EQ1616D "phono equalizer" as they call it. I liked both. However, the phono stage allowed me to fine tune capacitance and load, creating a perfect bridge between my cartridge (Benz Micro SNL Ebony at that time) and my Pre (Ed Shilling’s "The Truth"); also in comparison, the SUT (arguably one of the very best), brought the music more forward and overall added some Technicolor "bombast". So I kept the Sunvalley, until I bought a SUPRATEK Grange, which comes with a fabulous phono stage built in (MC only!). If I were you, I would certainly give the Sunvalley a serious listening.

well, look what popped up

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/5-cartridges-cello-vdh-benz-zu-hana-what-stays-and-what-goes

did you master mounting/aligning your cartridges yourself?

do you still have 2 TT's?

A SUT with two inputs, 1 out to your MM phono stage  solves that!

If a "transimpedance" stage had an input of (say) 2 - 4 ohm, that would be a problem.

The one thing that is always ignored in the whole transZ discussions is the DCR of the tonearm cable often approaches or exceeds 1Ω.  This DCR adds directly to the load seen by the cartridge and can prevent true transZ operation from the lowest Z cartridges

dave

In practice it is impossible to achieve, but the practical outcome is, IMHO, the same, the lower the internal impedance of the cartridge, the greater the transfer of current to the phono stage. And that is because the internal impedance of a cartridge will likely be well above the input impedance of a transimpedance phono stage.

Agree. Jim Hagerman has posted that his Piccolo Zero’s input measures 0.02 Ohms at 1kHz, noting this value is frequency dependent. Even if its input rises a bit from that within the audible band, it should still be negligible compared to the very lowest commercially available MC coils at 1 ohm. The amount of current flow should be inversely proportional to the sum of these ohm figures (coils and input), so "Close enough to zero" is what matters for these stages. If a "transimpedance" stage had an input of (say) 2 - 4 ohm, that would be a problem.

Though I haven’t attempted to measure / quantify, the 2 ohm, 0.2mV SPU Classic GM E gets a bit more net gain from the Zero versus a 5 ohm, 0.3mV Koetsu Blue Lace (and that always felt like a "strong" 0.3mV). Both pair very nicely; the Zero amplifies these cartridges very "efficiently" and subjectively sounds GREAT with them. The SPU pairing in particular is quite special. I’ve been running both of these at 1 step down from the Zero’s max gain setting (4 total levels).

Meanwhile, a 0.38mV Colibri pairing was just not good; its coil impedance is necessarily high due to its less efficient monopole design, and though the Zero can be adjusted to give enough gain / volume (at its highest setting), the subjective result was not as good compared to SUT or JFET MC stage.

First you have to figure out how much gain you want/need.

Both your phono stages run around 60db which is good for most MC carts.

I run a cart with 0.2mv and run at about 75db (1:15, 30ohm) which is a lot for me.  If I need more volume, I just turn it up.  I'm a bit wary of sending to much to my phono stage since it's already high gain.

I run Hashimoto HM-7 adjustable 1:15/30.  I'm thinking of going non adjustable 1:20.

The Fidelity Research FR4 above might be a good starting place.  Fidelity Research has some Ikeda roots.

For a high gain phono stage, the Modwright PH9.0 is 52/64db, 58/70db with the X upgrade, which I did.

It is important to understand the subjective factor in the sound of these things.  I have a PS Audio Stellar that I use in one of my systems that I bought in large part of the basis of Mikey Fremer's review.  It is excellent in every way and I am happy to own it.  Is it as good as my Conrad-Johnson ART Phono no, but it costs maybe 1/10 the price too.  It is not as good as my friend's CH either, but it cost almost almost twice what the C-J did.  Another friend has a Sutherland that sounds excellent too, as it should at ~$4K.  Each of these is different, each has a place.  These is no such thing as the best one.

I feel like I just dropped into MIT for a class in electronics when I belong in a community college class for basic electricity.  My head is spinning from all of your knowledge.  I’ve just recently decided to go back to vinyl and all of your comments are greatly appreciated in helping me.  it’s the reason I follow this forum.

Allnic AUT 8000. I’ve been pleased with mine for 2 years in a horn system. 

Virudian, but how about a situation where the internal R of the cartridge is well below the input Z of the phono stage? These days that’s quite possible. Is that now voltage drive, or what? There are now several LOMCs with R less that 2 ohms and several “trans impedance” phono stages with Z greater than 2 ohms, even up to 12 ohms. I don’t know about the Sutherland in particular. Anyway, I only point this out because it may explain my actual listening experience. And those of some others. And what I hear is that each mating can give a qualitatively different result, sufficient gain is not the problem.

How about a Mola Mola Lupe?

Lew, I dont know how you see it, or how you wrote it, but a careful reading of my post will reveal the qualifier ""conceptually" which I believe is correct.

In practice it is impossible to achieve, but the practical outcome is, IMHO, the same, the lower the internal impedance of the cartridge, the greater the transfer of current to the phono stage. And that is because the internal impedance of a cartridge will likely be well above the input impedance of a transimpedance phono stage.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/sutherland-engineering-little-loco-phono-preamplifier-measurements

And as far as semantic distinctions go, I will continue to use the term "transimpedance" as it is common usage, in the same way that SME did not invent the common headshell configuration, Ortofon did. But the convention is to refer to it as the SME headshell, so to communicate with others I observe the convention. Communication is often a messy, and imprecise, business.

BTW I am not an advocate, nor an apologist, for transimpedance phono stages. Transfer of current is hardly synonymous with good sound, except in the instance of maximizing signal to noise ratio, and my apologies if I gave the impression that it was.

Viridian, As i see it, and as I just wrote it, yes, in theory the current driven phono stage presents a dead short to the cartridge, but in fact it cannot, because if it did, you would have a fancy mute switch. There's the rub with current drive.

well, if you like your onboard phono section, get an SUT or two or three.

if not, how much you wanna spend on phono amplification altogether?

It's very difficult to set a firm upper limit for the internal impedance of an LOMC cartridge that you want to work "well" with a current driven phono stage. This is because each brand of current driven phono stage will present a different input impedance, which is always going to be above zero ohms, the ideal value for current drive. But you cannot have a true zero ohm input impedance, because that is a short circuit to ground. So each matchup between cartridge and current drive phono stage is different in terms of loading the stage. A decent rule of thumb is to use cartridges with internal impedance less than ~12 ohms, and then it's trial and error. (I don't use the term "transimpedance" because that implies that all matches do work fine, and that is not my experience, nor does it conform to the facts as I perceive them.)

@viridian Thank you for the information.  Good to know. 

sls883, well you have been using the combo and are clearly thrilled with the results. So there can be no greater endorsement.

The internal impedance of your cartridge is 8 ohms, and you have said it works excellently, the DL103 is 40 ohms and the Hana E series and original S series are 30 ohms, which I would think would be too high. I believe the new version 2 of the S series has a similar impedance to your cartridge.

I dont know if there is an exact point at which a combo would become incompatible, but conceptually the transimpedance stage presents a dead short to the cartridge. Since it is current based, maximum signal transfer will occur with a matched load, ie zero ohms internal cartridge impedance, so it would appear the lower the better, at least in theory. But as we all know in this game, theory is hardly the be all and end all.

Dear @Viridian: Neither the Van den Hul Grasshopper II.

@dcaudio  , do it a favor and stay away of transimpedance/current phono stage designs instead your choice most be for voltage phono stage designs. SUT always is an inferior choice against an active high gain pgono stage design.

You can look for the PS Audio Stellar that outperforms any MM/SUT combination (tube or SS ) .

PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamplifier Page 2 | Stereophile.com

and Fremer compared against the CH P1/X1, Ypsilon and others ( with prices over 20-30 times the humble PS Audio price tag. ) using top SAT tonearm and Caliburn TT and cartridges of the caliber of Lyra Atlas SL.

Obviously is interesting to read the M.Fremer review including the real time measurements page.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@viridian Thanks for pointing that out.  Do you have any idea what would be considered low impedance? Sutherland's website doesn't give a range. I'm using a Hana ML cartridge and it works well.  I checked with Ron Sutherland before I bought the TZ Vibe. 

You could get BOTH Hagerman’s Piccolo ZERO (transimpedance) and Piccolo MC (voltage drive) head-amps brand new for just over $500 and be covered for virtually any cartridge’s needs in the future (and already mentioned, "transimpedance" is not a good match for every cart, like Benz Ruby / LPS, VdH Colibri, or that Denon). Pick your favorite MM stage to pair them with, especially tubes.

Synergistic parings are hard to nail down for any given cartridge & system (ad the MC stage is where it matters most!), but these units generally sound very good and are much more flexible than the typical SUT. I’ve gotten particularly amazing sonic results from the little ZERO paired with Koetsu Blue Lace Diamond and Ortofon SPU Classic GE Mk II. The lower the output, the more efficient the ZERO is at amplification, as long as its coil impedance is going down proportionally (like with the SPU). The voltage-mode Piccolo is just a good basic head-amp - I find Hagerman's offerings here typically a bit warmer and more musical than you'd find in e.g. Herron or Audio Research, but with the caveat being a bit higher noise floor than average.  

At their prices, just add them to your toolkit lol. It’s also a good baseline to determine whether a fancy expensive SUT has good synergy to your cart or not.

Transimpedance stages like the TZ Vibe will not match well with high impedance cartridges like the Denon/Zu.

@dcaudio

Look into this hidden jewel from Japan. Direct ship to you for under $800. Dedicated gain for Low and High MC carts.

http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/Model4/m4-1.htm

If you want top of the line or near top of the line, one option would be the (current-based) CH Precision P1, with or without the X1.  Another approach with SUT would be Ypsilon VPS100, or the EMIA LR Phono Corrector.

I have horn tweeters, and horn mids, and they would reveal any hiss or hum, I have none happily. The FRT-4 SUT has zero hum in my system.

IF you know you will stick with a single arm, with removable headshells for optional pre-mounted cartridges, the Ortofon T30 has 5 optional gain/loads and PASS for MM

I never heard one, I found it’s specs a long time ago

Example: my AT33ptg/II has 0.3mv/10 ohm coil.

LOAD: 'Try For' Formula says coil impedance x 10, so target is 100 ohm load. The 12 ohm setting yields a 118 ohm load, so use that. That setting's GAIN equates to x factor 20, thus signal would be 0.3mv x 20 = 6mv which is more than enough, question becomes too much, might cause overload? probably not.

My FRT-4 setting marked 10 is identical to Ortofon's setting marked 12, both +26db, x factor 20, resultant load 118 ohms, it's like the rules of Bridge, don't ask why, just learn the rules and play.

I recently got a Zesto SUT for a Rega Aphelion 2 cart going into EAT Eglow petite hybrid-tube PS. I can either go directly to PS with high gain and get a bit of tube hiss. Or I can add the SUT and get a bit of transformer hum. Both at very low levels and only audible when I crank up pre-amp and put my ear next to speaker. The Zesto ads more body to the music compared to going straight to PS. You can adjust the tonality a bit with the impedence settings both on SUT and PS. 

I’m no expert, but I got help here and learned enough to avoid mistakes.

Phono, anything phono, if possible get return option, it’s a world of ’preferred, not better’, no way of truly knowing how something will sound in your system except by trial.

IF you love your MM Phono Stage, then go for a SUT with some optional settings to fit your current and future variety of LOMC. SUTs are passive, my experience with my Vintage Fidelity Research FRT-4: no sound signature of it’s own. Absolutely no hum.

Just enough gain and proper range of impedance to keep using my Vintage McIntosh mx110z’s Tube MM Phono. It's 4 optional gain/load are linked together: even better would be independent gain and load settings, but that usually pushes the price up.

Any chance you might go to two tonearms? i.e. Playing some Jazz, this one's MONO, use the other arm that's all set up, turn a switch, drop that needle. IF so, a SUT with multiple inputs, front selectable, is great, including PASS for MM so no cable change is needed. 

Entre ET-100 is similar

Often, the numbers make no sense, do your research, ask, I had to find the original specs of my FRT-4 to decipher what gain/impedance the switch positions actually produced

SUT Info I posted here

Sutherland TZ Vibe.