Phono preamp or SUT for low output moving coil

Sutherland TZ Vibe. 

I’m no expert, but I got help here and learned enough to avoid mistakes.

Phono, anything phono, if possible get return option, it’s a world of ’preferred, not better’, no way of truly knowing how something will sound in your system except by trial.

IF you love your MM Phono Stage, then go for a SUT with some optional settings to fit your current and future variety of LOMC. SUTs are passive, my experience with my Vintage Fidelity Research FRT-4: no sound signature of it’s own. Absolutely no hum.

Just enough gain and proper range of impedance to keep using my Vintage McIntosh mx110z’s Tube MM Phono. It's 4 optional gain/load are linked together: even better would be independent gain and load settings, but that usually pushes the price up.

Any chance you might go to two tonearms? i.e. Playing some Jazz, this one's MONO, use the other arm that's all set up, turn a switch, drop that needle. IF so, a SUT with multiple inputs, front selectable, is great, including PASS for MM so no cable change is needed. 

Entre ET-100 is similar

Often, the numbers make no sense, do your research, ask, I had to find the original specs of my FRT-4 to decipher what gain/impedance the switch positions actually produced

SUT Info I posted here

I recently got a Zesto SUT for a Rega Aphelion 2 cart going into EAT Eglow petite hybrid-tube PS. I can either go directly to PS with high gain and get a bit of tube hiss. Or I can add the SUT and get a bit of transformer hum. Both at very low levels and only audible when I crank up pre-amp and put my ear next to speaker. The Zesto ads more body to the music compared to going straight to PS. You can adjust the tonality a bit with the impedence settings both on SUT and PS. 

I have horn tweeters, and horn mids, and they would reveal any hiss or hum, I have none happily. The FRT-4 SUT has zero hum in my system.

IF you know you will stick with a single arm, with removable headshells for optional pre-mounted cartridges, the Ortofon T30 has 5 optional gain/loads and PASS for MM

I never heard one, I found it’s specs a long time ago

Example: my AT33ptg/II has 0.3mv/10 ohm coil.

LOAD: 'Try For' Formula says coil impedance x 10, so target is 100 ohm load. The 12 ohm setting yields a 118 ohm load, so use that. That setting's GAIN equates to x factor 20, thus signal would be 0.3mv x 20 = 6mv which is more than enough, question becomes too much, might cause overload? probably not.

My FRT-4 setting marked 10 is identical to Ortofon's setting marked 12, both +26db, x factor 20, resultant load 118 ohms, it's like the rules of Bridge, don't ask why, just learn the rules and play.

If you want top of the line or near top of the line, one option would be the (current-based) CH Precision P1, with or without the X1.  Another approach with SUT would be Ypsilon VPS100, or the EMIA LR Phono Corrector.

@dcaudio

Look into this hidden jewel from Japan. Direct ship to you for under $800. Dedicated gain for Low and High MC carts.

http://softone.a.la9.jp/english/Model4/m4-1.htm

You could get BOTH Hagerman’s Piccolo ZERO (transimpedance) and Piccolo MC (voltage drive) head-amps brand new for just over $500 and be covered for virtually any cartridge’s needs in the future (and already mentioned, "transimpedance" is not a good match for every cart, like Benz Ruby / LPS, VdH Colibri, or that Denon). Pick your favorite MM stage to pair them with, especially tubes.

Synergistic parings are hard to nail down for any given cartridge & system (ad the MC stage is where it matters most!), but these units generally sound very good and are much more flexible than the typical SUT. I’ve gotten particularly amazing sonic results from the little ZERO paired with Koetsu Blue Lace Diamond and Ortofon SPU Classic GE Mk II. The lower the output, the more efficient the ZERO is at amplification, as long as its coil impedance is going down proportionally (like with the SPU). The voltage-mode Piccolo is just a good basic head-amp - I find Hagerman's offerings here typically a bit warmer and more musical than you'd find in e.g. Herron or Audio Research, but with the caveat being a bit higher noise floor than average.  

At their prices, just add them to your toolkit lol. It’s also a good baseline to determine whether a fancy expensive SUT has good synergy to your cart or not.

@viridian Thanks for pointing that out.  Do you have any idea what would be considered low impedance? Sutherland's website doesn't give a range. I'm using a Hana ML cartridge and it works well.  I checked with Ron Sutherland before I bought the TZ Vibe. 

Dear @Viridian: Neither the Van den Hul Grasshopper II.

@dcaudio  , do it a favor and stay away of transimpedance/current phono stage designs instead your choice most be for voltage phono stage designs. SUT always is an inferior choice against an active high gain pgono stage design.

You can look for the PS Audio Stellar that outperforms any MM/SUT combination (tube or SS ) .

PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamplifier Page 2 | Stereophile.com

and Fremer compared against the CH P1/X1, Ypsilon and others ( with prices over 20-30 times the humble PS Audio price tag. ) using top SAT tonearm and Caliburn TT and cartridges of the caliber of Lyra Atlas SL.

Obviously is interesting to read the M.Fremer review including the real time measurements page.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.

@viridian Thank you for the information.  Good to know. 

It's very difficult to set a firm upper limit for the internal impedance of an LOMC cartridge that you want to work "well" with a current driven phono stage. This is because each brand of current driven phono stage will present a different input impedance, which is always going to be above zero ohms, the ideal value for current drive. But you cannot have a true zero ohm input impedance, because that is a short circuit to ground. So each matchup between cartridge and current drive phono stage is different in terms of loading the stage. A decent rule of thumb is to use cartridges with internal impedance less than ~12 ohms, and then it's trial and error. (I don't use the term "transimpedance" because that implies that all matches do work fine, and that is not my experience, nor does it conform to the facts as I perceive them.)

well, if you like your onboard phono section, get an SUT or two or three.

if not, how much you wanna spend on phono amplification altogether?

Viridian, As i see it, and as I just wrote it, yes, in theory the current driven phono stage presents a dead short to the cartridge, but in fact it cannot, because if it did, you would have a fancy mute switch. There's the rub with current drive.

How about a Mola Mola Lupe?

Virudian, but how about a situation where the internal R of the cartridge is well below the input Z of the phono stage? These days that’s quite possible. Is that now voltage drive, or what? There are now several LOMCs with R less that 2 ohms and several “trans impedance” phono stages with Z greater than 2 ohms, even up to 12 ohms. I don’t know about the Sutherland in particular. Anyway, I only point this out because it may explain my actual listening experience. And those of some others. And what I hear is that each mating can give a qualitatively different result, sufficient gain is not the problem.

Allnic AUT 8000. I’ve been pleased with mine for 2 years in a horn system. 

I feel like I just dropped into MIT for a class in electronics when I belong in a community college class for basic electricity.  My head is spinning from all of your knowledge.  I’ve just recently decided to go back to vinyl and all of your comments are greatly appreciated in helping me.  it’s the reason I follow this forum.

It is important to understand the subjective factor in the sound of these things.  I have a PS Audio Stellar that I use in one of my systems that I bought in large part of the basis of Mikey Fremer's review.  It is excellent in every way and I am happy to own it.  Is it as good as my Conrad-Johnson ART Phono no, but it costs maybe 1/10 the price too.  It is not as good as my friend's CH either, but it cost almost almost twice what the C-J did.  Another friend has a Sutherland that sounds excellent too, as it should at ~$4K.  Each of these is different, each has a place.  These is no such thing as the best one.

First you have to figure out how much gain you want/need.

Both your phono stages run around 60db which is good for most MC carts.

I run a cart with 0.2mv and run at about 75db (1:15, 30ohm) which is a lot for me.  If I need more volume, I just turn it up.  I'm a bit wary of sending to much to my phono stage since it's already high gain.

I run Hashimoto HM-7 adjustable 1:15/30.  I'm thinking of going non adjustable 1:20.

The Fidelity Research FR4 above might be a good starting place.  Fidelity Research has some Ikeda roots.

For a high gain phono stage, the Modwright PH9.0 is 52/64db, 58/70db with the X upgrade, which I did.

In practice it is impossible to achieve, but the practical outcome is, IMHO, the same, the lower the internal impedance of the cartridge, the greater the transfer of current to the phono stage. And that is because the internal impedance of a cartridge will likely be well above the input impedance of a transimpedance phono stage.

Agree. Jim Hagerman has posted that his Piccolo Zero’s input measures 0.02 Ohms at 1kHz, noting this value is frequency dependent. Even if its input rises a bit from that within the audible band, it should still be negligible compared to the very lowest commercially available MC coils at 1 ohm. The amount of current flow should be inversely proportional to the sum of these ohm figures (coils and input), so "Close enough to zero" is what matters for these stages. If a "transimpedance" stage had an input of (say) 2 - 4 ohm, that would be a problem.

Though I haven’t attempted to measure / quantify, the 2 ohm, 0.2mV SPU Classic GM E gets a bit more net gain from the Zero versus a 5 ohm, 0.3mV Koetsu Blue Lace (and that always felt like a "strong" 0.3mV). Both pair very nicely; the Zero amplifies these cartridges very "efficiently" and subjectively sounds GREAT with them. The SPU pairing in particular is quite special. I’ve been running both of these at 1 step down from the Zero’s max gain setting (4 total levels).

Meanwhile, a 0.38mV Colibri pairing was just not good; its coil impedance is necessarily high due to its less efficient monopole design, and though the Zero can be adjusted to give enough gain / volume (at its highest setting), the subjective result was not as good compared to SUT or JFET MC stage.

If a "transimpedance" stage had an input of (say) 2 - 4 ohm, that would be a problem.

The one thing that is always ignored in the whole transZ discussions is the DCR of the tonearm cable often approaches or exceeds 1Ω.  This DCR adds directly to the load seen by the cartridge and can prevent true transZ operation from the lowest Z cartridges

dave

well, look what popped up

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/5-cartridges-cello-vdh-benz-zu-hana-what-stays-and-what-goes

did you master mounting/aligning your cartridges yourself?

do you still have 2 TT's?

A SUT with two inputs, 1 out to your MM phono stage  solves that!

I went down both paths: I had Dave Slagle make me a copper EMIA SUT matched to the specs of my preamp, and I had a Sunvallley Audio SV-EQ1616D "phono equalizer" as they call it. I liked both. However, the phono stage allowed me to fine tune capacitance and load, creating a perfect bridge between my cartridge (Benz Micro SNL Ebony at that time) and my Pre (Ed Shilling’s "The Truth"); also in comparison, the SUT (arguably one of the very best), brought the music more forward and overall added some Technicolor "bombast". So I kept the Sunvalley, until I bought a SUPRATEK Grange, which comes with a fabulous phono stage built in (MC only!). If I were you, I would certainly give the Sunvalley a serious listening.

Dear @billstevenson : Always exist the subjective factor and you compared the Stellar against truly expensive units, however  differences are not so big as the price differences.

All electronics have its own limitations  and that subjective factor could makes thatsome audiophileslike it the Stellar over the expensive phono stages. I listened 3-4  times the Stellar and it's not easy to find out its weak because you have evrything from reproduced MUSIC we need with aplomb.

R.

Hi Raul,

What is essential for me, and you and I had discussed this some time ago and reached agreement, is that any phono stage must - MUST - accurately amplify the signal it is processing in accordance with the RIAA curve.  The Stellar happens to do this very well.  Everything else, and I mean that literally, is secondary to that requirement.  And yet very few do including many very expensive ones. 

A SUT is just gain. Little if any ability to manage impedance to best match the needs of the cartridge. I would advise finding a photo stage that has the necessary gain plus impedance adjustments. 65 - 70 db is needed. 

sgordo, I beg to differ; a SUT has everything to do with the impedance the cartridge will see. There is a direct mathematical correlation, in fact. And the more voltage gain afforded by a SUT, the lower the impedance seen by the cartridge, which will be the input impedance of the phono stage (usually 47K ohms) divided by the square of the turns ratio (which is synonymous with voltage gain). This law of behavior can create difficulties if you want to augment the signal voltage of LOMCs with high internal resistance or low output MI types (because they have relatively very high inductance) using a SUT.

Hagerman makes a couple of different head amps to do what you need at reasonable prices and they are quiet.

What lewm explains is extremely important for people to understand if they want to use an SUT.  I had to address this problem myself when I bought my SoundSmith Hyperion and then tried it with an SUT.  I have two actually and both have 10:1 ratios for this very reason.   One of them also has the option of 5:1.  Fortunately I have found 10:1 is adequate with my phono stage.

to be a bit more precise, the SUT is a Step Up Transformer so the ratio is 1:X not X:1. That said it is indeed as Lewn stated. Take the square of the turns ratio and divide the input impedance of the phono stage to calculate what the load is on the cartridge. So a 1:10 is 10 x 10 = 100 and the typical 47KΩ divided by 100 = 470Ω

However, the main reason you have an SUT is to get enough gain, it should not be viewed as a means to achieve a desired load resistance. Much better to have a phono stage with a very input impedance like the EMIA LR (300kΩ is standard), select an SUT that gives you the desired voltage gain, and then load the primary of the SUT to get the desired load resistance.

Despite what others may tell you... SUTs are a superb way to get wonderful sound if you know how to implement them

Another point is the unfounded obsession with a perfect RIAA response. The idea that the RIAA has to be perfect is ridiculous given all of the other variables in frequency response in any system including the room. Why obsess with .01dB of accuracy with the RIAA when other factors give deviations in response many  orders of magnitude greater? All else equal then yes it should be as good as you can make it, BUT nothing else is ever equal so relax and go with the music. Go with what sounds the best, not measures the best. Don't chase specifications to ridiculous precision.

Agree 100% with everything @herman said!

Herman, the word you omitted in describing the input impedance of the EMIA is “high”. The EMIA has a high input Z to facilitate using it with LOMC cartridges that work best into high-ish impedance, specifically cartridges that have high internal resistance, like some Denons and some Benz cartridges or low output MI cartridges that have high inductance, even though their internal resistance can be low. In such cases the EMIA can safely be mated to their SUTs while still properly loading LOMCs with high internal R. 

On the issue of the needed accuracy of RIAA, I tend to agree with you that there is such a thing as “close enough” to perfect; I would not choose one phono with .05 db accuracy over another with 0.1db accuracy, if I otherwise preferred the SQ of the latter one, but the argument that can be made for very high accuracy is why add another source of error (= distortion) to a reproductive process that is already fraught with other sources of distortion? I think there is such a thing as accurate enough.

"Much better to have a phono stage with a very ______ input impedance like the EMIA LR (300kΩ is standard),"

Herman, the word you omitted in describing the input impedance of the EMIA is “high”.

thanks, yes, I did unintentionally omit the word "high" , but "very high" would be an even better description 

The EMIA has a high input Z to facilitate using it with LOMC cartridges that work best into high-ish impedance,

yes, and to be more specific, if you have a fairly standard 1:20 SUT into 47KΩ the highest load you can achieve is 118Ω (47,000 divided by 400) .. Into 300KΩ that will be 750Ω. If you then want it lower you can load the primary. Slagle has a handy calculator on his site. https://intactaudio.com/tran.html and scroll down

the standard 47KΩ came about back in the days of MM only cartridges and is not ideal for those of us who use MC. Here are a few interesting reads, All credit for what I know about it goes to Dave Slagle.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dispelling-myth-about-phono-cartridge-loading

https://intactaudio.com/SUT%20design.html

Actually, you can change the load resistor in any MM stage to whatever value you prefer, if you can identify it and can solder.

The Rogue Ares phono stage also allows loading a SUT at 100K or 1 MEG ohms (in addition to the usual 47K option), and has done so since its introduction ~ 2010. It's certainly a rare feature that I wish was far more common! Yes, it allows a cartridge like Benz Ruby / LPS to play happily on a SUT.

For the most part, even phono stages that brag massive loading flexibility lock down to 47K once you flip to MM mode, much to my chagrin. 

@herman

I really appreciate your contributions here. They provide good information on SUT’s designs and careful selection of SUT’s for anyone looking to pursue this route. 

I believe you’re right, the EMIA’s design with a higher input impedance makes it particularly well-suited for low-output moving coil (LOMC) cartridges that benefit from higher loading impedance. The standard 47kΩ load, a legacy from the moving magnet (MM) era, often results in suboptimal performance for MC cartridges, which typically need more tailored loading for the best sonic results.

If I interpret correctly what you said, using a step-up transformer (SUT) with a high-impedance load like 300kΩ opens up much more flexibility. The higher impedance allows for better cartridge damping and less tonal constriction, especially with LOMCs that thrive in the 500–1,000Ω range. The example of a 1:20 ratio yielding 750Ω into 300kΩ is a great illustration of how dramatically this can improve compatibility compared to the more restrictive 118Ω with the standard 47kΩ.

Loading the primary to fine-tune impedance is another clever technique, and Dave Slagle’s calculator is an excellent resource for those looking to experiment.

There is a direct mathematical correlation, in fact. And the more voltage gain afforded by a SUT, the lower the impedance seen by the cartridge, which will be the input impedance of the phono stage (usually 47K ohms) divided by the square of the turns ratio (which is synonymous with voltage gain).

@lewm  is absolutely correct. My SUT allows both 15:1 and 10:1 turns ratios, and therefore allows a 47kΩ MM input to be seen as either 208Ω or 470Ω. It makes a difference!

Actually, you can change the load resistor in any MM stage to whatever value you prefer, if you can identify it and can solder.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say "any" since the input impedance may be determined by more than a single resistor, but it is certainly the most common way. Hopefully whoever is in there replacing  resistors knows enough to determine what is needed.

The caveat with going too far is that increasing the input impedance also increases the amount of noise that gets in, so there is a practical limit

I agree with most of what has been discussed, but would like to point out that there is no conflict between the use of an SUT and choosing a phono stage that has an accurate RIAA curve.  I guarantee that the the use of the two together can be serendipitous.

The question or the argument is how accurate is accurate enough?

Before this turns into another one of those senseless debate….the answer ultimately depends on what “accuracy” means to an individual and how it aligns with their listening priorities.

You will probably not be surprised by my answer.  Measurements get us to a certain point, they do not absolve us of the responsibility, or perhaps even better, the necessity to listen and decide what sounds we prefer.  It is usually the case, but not always, that someone who knows how to listen will prefer equipment that both measures well and reproduces accurately.  Of course taste comes into it too, hence looking at audio broadly there are horns, dipoles (electrostatic and planar) tubes, various solid state devices, Class A, AB, D, MM, MC, digital and analog this and that and all manner of other equipment variables.  All technologies can measure well, all have distinct sonic signatures, and of course all have their adherents.  So it is not possible for me to answer your question in a definitive manner.  Subjectively though, to your question how accurate is accurate enough? The answer is accurate enough to please the principle listening audience.

Bill, I was just re-stating the existing bone of contention. In essence I agree with your position. Also, I took the Devil’s Advocate position in stating the argument for pinpoint RIAA accuracy, which is in my mind at least the idea that since the medium does have so many other sources of distortion and since there are undoubtedly RIAA errors in pre-emphasis incorporated into some of the LPs we love, especially the older ones, one might take the position that it is desirable to use a phono stage with the least possible error in de-emphasis, so as to avoid possibly confounding errors in pre-emphasis encoded in LPs. This is just fun and games to talk about and in reality I pay no attention at all to this stuff when listening to music, just like you and most others. Likewise, I do not believe that cartridge loading is such a black and mysterious art.

Since my Krell KRC preamplifier with MM/MC phono stage lost one channel

I’m using Aurorasound by Lundahl SUT . Quite good solution for my situation. 
while My PA Krell 300 is getting refurbished I’m playing records with Rotel RA-1570 which has just MM phono. The Koetsu black MC cartridge is sounding very nice. 
no idea when my Krell amplification will be back and usable, I’m looking around for new rather used amplifier and preamp. It’s a lot of these things out there I don’t really have ability to listen different pieces of equipment. More likely to depend on opinions, reviews. Just a little hint, Krell was for me a little to bright, to “aggressive”I would truly appreciate any advice. I had opportunity to listen Audio Research Amplification and it was quite great, can’t recall the models name.

I don't see why this is a question. There's no problem having enough gain with either tube or solid state with the cartridges mentioned. As long as the input of the phono section is properly designed its plug and play; no need for an SUT.

If you want to use an SUT you have more connections but it does allow you to use nearly any phono section that has 40-45dB of gain, like you would expect for a high output moving magnet cartridge.

FWIW, phono cartridges are balanced sources. SUTs can be configured to accept the signal in the balanced domain and send it out either single-ended or balanced. There are also fully balanced phono sections that are tube and also solid state. We developed the first of such devices back in the 1980s.

Balanced is nice because it can eliminate any sonic artifact brought on by the cable itself.

In my opinion, the Krell phono stages were OK as SS phono stages used to go back in their day, but these days there are both tube and SS phono stages that handily outperform them. Specifically, modern phono stages are in general more free of artifacts that I used to ascribe to transistors per se, a kind of clinical sheen over the music. Modern solid state units have overcome that issue.  Likewise, modern tube phono stages are no longer guilty of narrow bandwidth (droopy bass and soft highs), of which they once were accused, rightly or wrongly.  I'd recommend you (winalovski) consider a new phono stage, rather than to pour money into the Krell in order to repair it.  Of course, I hasten to emphasize that this is only my opinion, but it is based on lots of listening to a wide variety of phono stages.

being an old timer I have old timer equipment and through all these years I got pretty attached to it however, some of it started to give up so I’m looking to either repair it or replace it but to your opinion, I agree that maybe it’s time to go away from Krell to something else, My speakers, they are all timers too🤣 . Martin Logan‘s Monolith from 1986 with newer panels though, And Wilson puppies.. They look like Laural and Hardy. They sit next to each other, and I love to switch between them to different kind of music. For some poor recordings, I have also subwoofer. I love Manolis for classical music. The sound stage is just incredible. For Jazz and some rock music there’s nothing like Puppy. Could be that Krell amplifier will get refurbished to original sound quality, but preamp I’m not gonna bother with it.

As I mentioned before I like the sound of audio research and never heard McIntosh, but for some reason, I like the look of it 🤷‍♂️ if it sounds as good as it looks, I will definitely consider it. Wow, that would be quite a jump. Well, years ago, I was much closer to new electronics high-end. Going to some electronics shows I met Jim Power’s from Martin Logan what a great guy that was unfortunately no longer with the company so everything is changing.  Now I just enjoy my music and I would really love from some of you gentleman to give me some advice. I don’t want to change the speakers that’s the bottom line. I have also good turntable. It’s a Linn sondek LP 12 so I would need to work around these things I hope for some good advice. I would really appreciate that. Thank you so much.