I’ve been very happy with my system lately, since I added new speakers and a new amplifier. I felt it was totally balanced and almost anything I played on it sounded good. Then a friend came over who had greatly admired my previous system configuration. This friend owns decidedly mid fi audio equipment and listens mostly on headphones. In short, he didn’t like my current system. Now, I’m starting to listen to my system through HIS ears and have wondered if it was a mistake to upgrade. I don’t know if this is a question of perception or weak-mindedness. So much of the enjoyment of our rigs is in our head. The system didn’t change. My perception of it did. I now have to fight off his perception and get back to my own. I don’t think I’m a unique case. So much of what we perceive in audio is controlled by our psyches.
Aside from trying to find new and mystic ways to keep those never ending, pesky Martian dust storms or the perpetual spinning of the earth from screwing up our perception of how our system sounds, we should, from time to time, remember what it is (or was in the first place) that we, as individuals, want and expect from our system and surroundings to present the elusion of a living performance.
For me, it isn't about re-creating the full scope and volume of a concert performance, at 90+ decibels; it's more about the richness timber and presence of real instruments and good vocals in Light Pop and Contemporary, or small venue Jazz, Celtic, Folk and Chamber at a volume my old ears can handle.
While it can be helpful to get the opinions and advice of others and to make and take opportunities to audition equipment, accessories and tweaks that may help to build or improve our system, what's important to remember is that it is individually specific to - our ears, our budget and our preference of listening and music............Jim
Going to live performances is perhaps the only practical way to really hit that "reset button" in regards to perception of what real music can sound like.
Only then you are in a good position to start objectively assessing the sound quality of recordings and the toys used to play them.
Be warned: what you hear in the jazz club or symphony hall will not sound like what you hear at the amplified rock concert. But it’s all real! Go figure! How about those recordings? Live or Memorex?
Go to live music, particularly unamplified concerts. Listen, listen, listen to what real music performances sound like. Then aim for that "same" perception with your system. Rely on NO ears other than ones that are musically perceptive and exposed to live music.
Far as, "a reset button": https://news.nd.edu/news/walking-through-doorways-causes-forgetting-new-research-shows/ I was happy to have something on which to blame my forgetting-why-I-went-to-the-kitchen, when I read that, years ago. Now I need an excuse, for standing at the bottom of my stairs, wondering if I had a reason to go up, or- if I just came down. I’d always hoped, getting old would take longer!
As fate would have it the REPEAT button is often mistaken for the REFRESH button. ®️
Has it really been more than than 20 years ago the intrepid reviewer for Stereophile magazine, Shannon Dickson, opined after his coverage of CES, “most exhibitors cannot get up out of the noise floor?” I suspect that is probably true for most audiophiles, that they cannot get up out of the noise floor. History has a way of repeating itself, not refreshing itself. Take a look 👀 around. Yes, I know what you’re thinking - “My system sounds fabulous!”
rvpiano: "I don’t think I’m a unique case. So much of what we perceive in audio is controlled by our psyches."
Hello rvpiano, I think this statement from your opening post on this thread is a very good summation and a fundamental truth that most involved in our hobby have discovered themselves along our journeys, and a useful point for those that do not yet realize this truth. I believe that everything we perceive in the world throughout our lifetimes are controlled by our psyches. The high quality reproduction of recorded music in our homes is especially susceptible to our perceptions, IMHO, because our senses or feelings of what sounds good to us are so highly personal, unique and subjective. The reality that there are virtually an unlimited number of paths, when the various permutations of component choices along with other factors are considered, to achieve our goals of high quality music reproduction that doubts or insecurities about our individual choices and the overall sound quality results are likely inevitable. Even once we subjectively determine our constructed systems sound very good, it seems like it may be our human natures to continually turn our attentions to how we can somehow make it sound incrementally just a bit better. Some of our psyches will perceive this obsessive journey as a curse and others as a joy. I believe our psyches are not static entities beyond our control and that we’re all, ultimately, who we choose to be. Personally, I’m more interested in enjoying good music reproduced by a high quality audio system than contemplating all the psychological mumbo jumbo and thoroughly understanding exactly why I enjoy it. I may be shallow but I’m just happy when listening to my music.
Your wise words completely describe my own opinion but better expressed than I was able to convey it...My best to you...
Indeed we must added to your audio systems peculiarities, room properties, ears individual physiology, all the tweaks that are fundamental to improve all that....Indeed it is my own experience and I only add weigh to your experience...Thanks...
You have to take others opinions with a grain of salt. Listen to them because there could be some truth to them & it could help you out. It could also be misinformation.
I was in a store & a younger guy was raving about a dac & spouting technical specs. He would not be able to comprehend that my 90’s era tube dac would crush it. His math proves him correct.
People have predetermined opinions & usually not personal experiences that they’re confident that my preamp brand is unreliable & my speaker of choice does nothing great, but everything well.
This is all subject to their components, tubes if applicable, cables, recordings, etc. Limitations there have a direct influence, perception & opinion.
I was once skeptical of spending money on cables. I have since upgraded to reference level cables. It has unleashed the capabilities of my components.
I was almost there... I had this one last thing that I considered upgrading.
My preamp has 6 tubes. Two are gain tubes & four are buffer tubes. I had upgraded the two gain tubes to my favorite brand NOS. Those are supposed to be the main ones that make the difference & have the most benefit.
The consensus is that preamp buffer tubes make a difference, but not as much as gain tubes.
That may be true, but my system has been transformed by upgrading my preamp buffer tubes to my favorite NOS tubes.
I’m now done with my system. I clearly realize that the people that have opinions about my speakers have not driven them with the right components, cables, or tubes. It’s a shame because they are truly spectacular if driven as I have.
Opinions are completely relative. Trust your gut...
I’m as serious as a colonoscopy without anesthesia. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. I didn’t say it wouldn’t be a bumpy ride. That’s always the case when brand new information enters the scene. There’s always a whole lot of huffing and puffing and shouting and cries of “foul!” Yes, I know you have some sort of ridiculous claim that manufacturers are trying to control your mind. Give me a break! If you think you know something about external factors’ affect on sound, believe me, you don’t. That was your main point, wasn’t it?
Perhaps leaving the listening room's a good idea, regarding this issue: Does anyone else really hate it, when they're singing along with a song, and the artist screws up the lyrics?
Often times when a band comes to town, they will play on multiple nights. Talk to people who have attended all, for this example, three shows...and you will likely get feedback where person one preferred show two...and person two preferred show three...and so on.
How can this be....same band, same venue, same song set, etc. There are a lot of explanations...different mood of the listener each night....different humidity....different temperature....ever so slightly different settings by the sound man....and so on.
No home audio system is a PERFECT representation of live music...no matter how good it may be. And, because of our own day to day variability as listeners, even the best home systems will provide what seems to be day to day variations in how we hearing and feeling the same song, on the same system, at the same time of day..etc. Some people resolve this with multiple systems (kind of a today's preferred flavor is X and not Y).
One more comment....I suspect that this is why people who prefer headphones often own multiple headphones....and today choose to listen with headphone A and tomorrow prefer to listen with headphone B.
Have I forgotten anything? Whoa! Hey, I forgot plants! 🌿 Now, everybody knows plants are supposed to be good for the sound, right? You know, the diffusion provided by a nice palm or fern or rubber tree plant sitting in the room, plus providing a nice relaxing atmosphere, right? Try removing all plants from the room, take them outside for best results. Let me know what you hear. Plants want to be in the ground, not in some pot inside. It’s unnatural.
OK, dudes and dudettes, here are some practical examples anyone can do that illustrate what I’m referring to, that our local environment affects our sensory perception of sound. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that these examples cannot be affecting the sound directly, cannot be affecting the audio signal anywhere in the room - not the acoustic waves, the house wiring, cabling, speakers or electronics.
1. If you have CDs or LP stacked horizontally anywhere in the room, instead stack them vertically. Then listen to the system. See what you think. Isn’t that better? 😳
2. If you have any cell phones in the house take them outside. Listen before and after. See what you think. Isn’t that better? 😳
3. Anyone with a lot of books in the listening room, take take them to another room. Same goes for magazines, newspapers, etc. See if that doesn’t improve the sound. Isn’t that better? 😳
4. If you have spare electronics equipment, you know, amps, CD players, spare cables, speakers, musical instruments in the room, taken them all out of the room to another room. Then listen to the system again. Then you tell me, isn’t that a lot better? 🤗
5. Take all batteries from remotes, toys, flashlights, etc. and take them outside for this experiment. Listen to the sound. See, isn’t that better? 😀
False conception of causation. A misunderstanding of science or causality. Fear of the unknown. In other words, the very definition of superstitious. No offense to you personally. If I may be so bold I suggest you wear an aluminum foil hat whilst listening to music.
Auto suggestion is an important factor in the perception process...if you make a move introducing some new factor in the room or the audio system, you enhance your normal perception process "per se"...Independently of the action, real or ficticious of the new device or factor introduced, perception is always enhanced in abnormal situation...Superstition is only the artificial re-enactment of this original scenario when something new is introduced that make an improvement for perception ….
External factors abound in audio life but as time passes, one must develop a thick enough skin to shrug it all off.
Whenever my choices were challenged or disputed, my first reaction was disbelief. After hearing what others considered the correct sound, my reaction turned to relief. Relief that I was right all along.
Yes, I've heard better systems but they were over 10X the cost of my system. So, in the context of what I know and how it accounts with my wants and situation, I'm very content now and not subject to others criticisms.
This reminds me of that old Devo song, Freedom of Choice and this passage: In ancient rome there was a poem About a dog who found two bones He picked at one He licked the other He went in circles He dropped dead
Yeah, that seems like something that would definitely work. 🤗 What could possibly go wrong with that idea. Geez, the person calling for the TT doesn’t even have to be at home. 😬
That’s silly! Nobody in the high end audio business buy this speaker employs such despicable and unprofessional tactics buy this speaker as psychological advertising buy this speaker or subliminal advertising to try to one up the competition.
It's called suggestibility. The makers of adverts know all about it. Just a question of planting the seed of doubt, or the seed of lust (for something bigger and better). Different people may have different levels of resistance to it, but I don't think anyone's immune.
Old rhyme: A centipede was happy – quite! Until a toad said, in fun, "Pray, which leg comes after which?" Which threw her mind in such a pitch, she laid bewildered in the ditch, considering how to run. Analysis Paralysis(long/exhaustive version): https://www.competitivedge.com/frog-and-centipede-story-paralysis-analysis
Yes, I know. Specifically, it’s the working of our subconscious mind. It’s how external factors affect the subconscious mind, which I would call internal, not external, in terms of how sound is perceived/heard. In other words, It’s something we can’t control. It’s how our hearing influenced by our local environment. But maybe you have something else in mind, so to speak.
nonoise: "Think how bad it would be if I had 4 stomachs and a cud to chew."
Hello nonoise,
Geoffkait's been telling everyone you have all those things, are a methane machine and you get milked once a day. My sympathies, it must be udderly awful.
As a former classical musician myself, I do know what real instruments and voices sound like. What I’m referring to are external factors that affect our perception of recorded music. No recording can equal the sound of real music. And every recording is different, and is going to contain some differing form of distortion from the live event. We can’t hope to build a system that is going to account for the vagaries of every different recording. So, we can accept the limitations of each recording or choose to concentrate on that distortion which annoys us. We have to convince ourselves to accept some form of compromise or drive ourselves crazy.
I grew up playing in orchestras, so I was around the sounds of instruments for years - nearby and all around me. Judging the sound of an audio system is easy for me: How much does that sax sound like the real thing? Is it sitting there off to the right 8 feet away, or is a facsimile spread all over the sound stage? When all the instruments play together in a crescendo, can I still clearly identify each one and where it is?
This is much the same theory that spawned the magazine title "The Absolute Sound." Forget the personalities involved at the mag. It was the concept - that we should strive for our systems (and recordings) to recreate the live performance as best they can.
My suggestion is to get out and listen to live music as much as you can. The more you do, the more confident (or disappointed) you'll be in your system.
I am referring to something much more mysterious than suspending a bell or crystals somewhere in the room or in the house somewhere or even tiny little bowl resonators. The reason I say that, gentle readers, is because it’s too easy to explain the suspended bell’s and crystal’s operation as simply affecting the sound waves in the room, which I consider to be part of the audio signal.
What I’m actually referring are completely independent from the audio signal - electronics, speakers, cables, digital cable, power cords, house wiring, room acoustics. So, I do not (rpt not) include acoustic resonators like bell and crystals in what I’m referring to. Or anything that affects vibration or RF. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, what’s left, right? 😬 At any rate, I suspect this is more in line 🔜 with what the OP was driving at when he wondered what *external factors* affect the sound we perceive/hear.
At this point, gentle readers, it might be a good time to fasten your seat belts. 🔛
I think Geoffkait is spot on about this thread... I go myself to the extreme with a fact I experiment with and that is not in the "audio path" : a tiny cooper bell suspended by the center of my ceiling audio room with 2 stones that change my perception of the imaging (shungite+ Herkimer diamond)...No sarcasm coming, only silence...
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