I in no way intended to cast any dispersion on the Sabre DACs. Probably as good as any and better than most. There are also other great DAC chips (AKM used in Esoteric and Hegel products and TI/Burr Brown used in some top DACs) and also the RTR ladder DACs that many prefer. IMO, it’s all about implementation.
All things inside an audio component affect the sound quality: DACS, power components, caps and other passive components, opamps, circuit boards, wiring, chassis, etc. The Oppo is a fine multi-channel/video player, but built to a price point. Considering all of its functionality (the "swiss army knife of digital audio/video"), Oppo has done a fantastic job of maximizing performance for $1300. BUT, keeping it real, cost has to have prohibited their use of some critical non-DAC components that are used in the better (and usually more expensive) stand-alone two-channel purpose-driven offerings. If you have doubts about that, maybe call Ric Schultz of EVS who mods the Sonica DAC and discuss this with him as I have.
Jeffrey: There are those that are implementing the same Sabre DACs as used in the Oppo 205 in a dual-mono configuration to reduce crosstalk between the channels and for other reasons. Some are operating them at a higher "bias" that is not possible with both channels driven through one DAC chip, partially due to the heat generated by this approach. L.K.S. is one that I am familiar with.
gdgal: No disrespect to you either, but are you serious? I can assure you that the implementation of the Sabre DAC in the $9k Ayre unit is much different than the Oppo 205/Sonica DAC. Ayre has risen to the top tier of audio by optimizing the entirety of design and implementation. Why would anyone buy a $9k digital component vs a $1300 one that has much more functionality. Because it sounds better.
Why would anyone buy a $9k digital component vs a $1300 one that has much more functionality.
No argument here and I get your point. In fact, you are likely entirely if not at least partially correct. However, I’d like to offer another *possible* answer; because the $9K unit is WAY over priced to begin with given the manufacturers desire/need to profit exorbitantly and a result of their WAY lower sales volume relative to Oppo.
@dragon_vibe , Can you please explain the differences you are hearing between the Merlot and the Oppo 205? For the price difference, I would not be surprised, especially when the Merlot is a FGPA based that the designer can custom-code to their liking. I am assuming that you got the Oppo to be used as a transport?
For my 2 channel listening I am using a PS Direct Stream Dac with the latest firmware.
I have not directly compared the PS Direct Stream with the Oppo 205 yet due to system configuration. (My 2 channel is a ways away from my home theater equipment.) but I will soon.
I guess my problem with the review you mentioned is this: Is the audio being processed through the Oppo Sonica Dac or is the digital output used and sent to another unit for digital/analog conversion? The reviewer never states and that could make a world of difference. In my opinion it is a very poor review and I would not put too much importance to it.
Thus far my Oppo 205 with the 7.1 analog outputs far exceeds my Oppo 95 which received many great audio reviews. And, I would believe it to be a very good 2 channel stand alone player. Perhaps not to the level of the PS Direct Stream or the Ayre But what a price difference!
Well, you are very well set then! I shoulda known ;) The PS Audio DirectStream is a very fine DAC.
Re: the review, I can't see that the reviewer would be sending out a digital signal from the DAC for his review (what would be the point?), if the Sonica even has a digital out.
Nonetheless, I agree that the lack of specifics leaves a shadow on the perceived credibility of the review. I had just read it a few days prior to your post and it popped into my mind upon reading your post.
Merlot DAC is used as my current reference, which will be replaced by a New upcoming DAC priced at 24K from Playback design. Prioror to that I had the MSB DACS, Platinum and Analog. Both of them were sold in favior for Playback design.
The 205 is used for my main Cinema room but I have connected it to my 2 Channel system for a few days. Sat one evening compared it to my Merlot which im selling btw to upgrade to the New Dream Series Playback will be rolling out in a few months.
The Merlot is smoother sounding, Bass is way more defined. the Sound stage is larger with the Playback design. The emotions of the music takes you over.
The oppo is just as transparent as the Playback design but it sounds flatter, less evolving. The bass is not as defined but feels a little boomy at times.
If my Merlot sell I will use my Oppo 205 but not looking forward to this. I don't seem to like the sound for 2 channel music. For Cinema room stuff the oppo is an excellent gear.
As to your statement, I cannot recall or care to link to the specific post, but if memory serves there is at least one fellow on the AVS Forum UDP-205 Owners Thread who purportedly has extremely expensive gear (100K+) and not only gave a thumbs up to the 205 but touted it as best he has heard (paraphrasing). Just saying...
Keep in mind, I grant you and others that at face value, the Oppo UDP-205 should be no match against purpose built DACs costing twice or more the 205 and manufactured by already established high-end companies. On the other hand, stranger things in life have happened.
People post all sorts of things - some true, some not. No doubt in my mind there are more satisfied owners (and even die-hard supporters) of Oppos than any other brand, and for good reasons. One is that they likely sell more than anyone else (excepting the Best Buy-type Blu Ray players), another is that they look and perform superbly and, thirdly, Oppo has good customer support and a great marketing strategy - extremely high value and functionality for HT users and music lovers that want something audibly and visually better than the mass-market commodity products at a palatable price, and they tightly control their distribution network to eliminate price slashing, leaving existing owners with good resale value when the new products come out, thus insuring that many will upgrade as their new products are introduced. Gotta love that. Smart.
All I’m really getting at is that there are lots of great digital products out there, more every day, and many offer superior sound quality at a price, as well they should for the extras $$. Should one choose to stay with the Oppo and be happy staying put, it’s a win. Should one choose to opt for upgrading to a better DAC product (not DAC chip!) for two-channel critical listening and use the outstanding transport (and possibly but less outstanding its streaming capabilities) as a source to the DAC along with the outstanding video/multichannel functionality for HT, it’s a win. Seems Oppo owners can’t loose! Just don’t buy the hype about the Oppo trashing the better DAC products on sound quality without trying one or a few yourself. Fair enough?
My Modwright Oppo 205 is well broken in now and I am very impressed. I feel that Modwright has taken advantage of an excellent ESS 9038 DAC chip with an excellent transformer coupled tube stage and the results are outstanding. Fine micro details and very dynamic. I felt it had overtaken my PS Audio DS until the recent firmware update which brings the DS up another level. Anyway, my point being the 205 is excellent and the Mods are so worth it for your 2 channel listening.
High end cables of any kind, from Audioquest or Synergistic Research for example, absolutely make noticeable improvements in video reproduction. One should buy what ever one's wallet and sound/video values permit. People that say high end hdmi cables make no difference have poor listening skills or hearing and/or have never heard these type of cables.
Having eyes and ears, and the other two senses too, does not makea person observant. Being able to eat food, or hear sound, or see does not instantly make a person observant.Practice makes perfect.
Observing the details and changes that happen over time with audio and video hones the skills needed to appreciate what high end cable manufacturers create.They know what they are doing!
If you have good listening and viewing skills and so can see and hear differences in video and audio reproductions, then try the Audioquest Cinnamon HDMI.It will please you as you watch and/ or listen to your system.If you can afford the Vodka HDMI cable, by all means get it.
If your visual or audio observation skills are poor, then a better reproduction of video or audio will be difficult, and probably unimportant to you, so don't even read about better cables.
I am using the Diamond HDMI cable.It was like getting an upgrade on my top of the line Sony displays.Brighter, better contrast, blacks, more 3D, transparency, etc. No other way to get these results. Quite shocking really.
Overall, these changes, with the Audioquest HDMI upgrade was very natural.I found the Wireworld cables overly etched and not natural the way they changed the images and audio.
For HDMI video the cable that produces an outstanding picture quality is the Monoprice Certified 4k cables. They are not too expensive and I compared them to the top of the line Wireworld, the Monoprice certified 4K is better. With my Oppo 205 I am using the analog outs. https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15427 ozzy
Well, I noticed those with lower budget tend to say anything to justify lower priced items are Giant Killers. This has been going on for years. I have personally tried and it can say from experience this is utterly nonsense. The UDP 205 is no doubt an excellent piece of engineering and well worth the price, but comparing it to high end dacs with engineering focused on higher fidelity is going to leave you disappointed. The Oppo can do many things but its not what I would consider a High End DAC/Player.
@dragon_vibe, Sure, I can understand. I am curious as to which high end DACs did you compare the Oppo to. Can you provide in detail on what was missing with the Oppo and how much of a difference the high end DAC made? That will at least give us an idea of what we would miss if we were to go the Oppo route. Or it can help us justifying the cost for a real high end DAC/player. In this day and age, I am still opting for a player than a DAC. Call me old school.
I dare say that if you are able to justify the cost of a truly high end DAC and purchase same, you or anyone else should be in a financial position to then purchase the Oppo on the top of it. The Oppo would then serve as transport.
Keep in mind seriously high end DACs are over 10 grand. So what's another $1,300 on an Oppo?
Don't need a $10k+ DAC to substantially better the 205 sonically for two-channel listening. Many fine DACs in the $2-4k range (and less used) will get you there.
The ModWright 205 tube mod is a great option for you milpai (all-in-one solution).
I am a bit hesitant right now about the digital options in front of me. Either I go with a $6-7k loudspeaker and a $4-5k SACD player OR go with a $10k loudspeaker and the Oppo. People have suggested the second option. That way I can use the Oppo as a transport when I get a good DAC later. And this is most likely I am leaning to.
@gdhal , it is hard to believe that we cannot get a serious high end DAC under $10k.
Don't need a $10k+ DAC to substantially better the 205 sonically for two-channel listening. Many fine DACs in the $2-4k range (and less used) will get you there.
@dlcockrum
Point well taken. Hence the reason I have my antenna out in an attempt to understand all options :)
They only have three US dealers, none of which are local to me.
I note the rear of the unit does have a USB A input. Can you confirm/deny whether or not it can "plug and play" if a flash memory stick with music files is inserted.
You have the list price right at $3500. I actually bought mine used for less than $1500 with Wywires umbilical upgrade and full warranty. I saw new ones selling for under $2k recently, but apparently they sold over the past few days.
Have not personally tried a memory stick yet, but Exogal CEO Jeff Haagenstad responds to emails in a few hours or less and I have found him to be pleasant, honest and extremely helpful thus far. He has offered Audiogon members a special price recently on another thread here.
Update: The USB A connection on the rear of the Comet is for charging devices like your iPad or phone, not for memory stick input. My Aurender has the memory stick input feature so I never paid much attention to it before.
DACs aside, for those considering buying the OPPO 205, there is something you need to know if you plan on using it for a home theater system as well as listening to audio CD's.
The OPPO 205 may have an HDCP conflict with other digital equipment when the OPPO becomes aware of another piece of equipment connected digitally through HDMI.
If there is an equipment conflict, the audio from the OPPO 205 will drop out for 2-3 seconds at random intervals.
The HDMI connection with the OPPO causes it to make HDCP calls to some brands of video display equipment when both are connected via HDMI in the HT system.
I've chased this problem for nearly a month. At first, I thought it was a Sony Bravia making HDMI CEC handshake calls because you cannot turn the CEC feature "OFF" on the Sony - and the Sony is never really powered "OFF," it is always in a standby mode unless unplugged from AC power.
However, through a number (over 10) of email exchanges with OPPO technical people on the dropout problem, I finally got an email reply from OPPO admitting they're aware of the dropout problem and "hope" to fix it with a firmware upgrade at some undetermined, later date.
Apparently, the OPPO 205 is sending out HDCP queries and when the Sony does not answer, the player momentarily times out.
This only happens when playing audio CD's. In my system, the OPPO is used with the OPPO 205 analog outputs, and is also connected to my HT processor through HDMI for use with DVD / BluRay playback.
Dropouts will also happen if the OPPO is connected directly to a video display using HDMI.
My "fix" for the problem is to use an Atlona ETUDE EDID emulator between my home theater center (McIntosh MX122) and the Sony Bravia. The ETUDE acts as a buffer between the equipment.
At this point I have not tested whether the ETUDE is stripping the HDCP request out of the data connection between the equipment, or whether, because the ETUDE is always "ON," it answers the OPPO 205 HDCP call with the EDID information from the Sony.
Either way - no more dropouts with the ETUDE between the OPPO and the Sony.
The OPPO 205 may have an HDCP conflict with other digital equipment when the OPPO becomes aware of another piece of equipment connected digitally through HDMI.
@buckhorn_cortez
I believe many of those issues are discussed on the AVS forum.
So I agree with you that certain connections to certain devices can present an issue. Fortunately, I do not have the drop-out issue as I'm connected via HDMI to my Samsung UN65KS9800.
Don't hold your breath for a quick fix. Glad you found a work around though. I was among the first to obtain a UDP-205, and reported a problem - which they have acknowledged - whereby if you play in gapless mode and choose to display remaining time, only the screen via HDMI shows time remaining. The unit itself continues to show time elapsed. This is not the case if not using gapless playback.
My Oppo 205 with Video connected via HDMI to my Samsung 85" UHD has no drop outs. But, I am using the Oppo analog outs to utilize the Oppo superior DAC over the Denon Receiver. ozzy
I have DirecTV and FireTV connected via HDMI to a 205 through a switch, and balanced analog from the 205 to a preamp. I get the audio dropouts with DirecTV but not FireTV.
I’ve owned the 83SE, the 95, the 105, and was in the pre-rollout wave for the 205.
Since comparative questions have been asked , I also have the Schiit Yggdrasil as my primary DAC and I have the Exogal Comet-Plus - Ion combo as well.
My reasons for bringing the 205 in were very specific and unique to my situation..which doesn’t mirror the 205’s usual usage by the vast majority of 205 owners.
I will state that I have not been a big fan of the previous generation Sabre Chips as implemented in general. For the older Oppos, I did / do like the audio signature and lived with it, but didn’t love it.
I have found all Oppos that I have owned to be fantastic products from a fantastic company that punch way, way above their street price. Their business model is worth emulating, their customer support is exemplary, and product quality outstanding.
The Sabre 9038 implementation has come a long ways, for my ears and preferences. It is the first Oppo DAC output I could be happy with and enjoy in stock form. And if modded, could very well serve as the only DAC I might need.
I also believe it is unwise to compare the DAC of the 205 to "well thought of" stand-alone DACs in say the 1.5K and above range. To me it is an unfair comparison, given all the other functionality the Oppo brings to the table.
For the 205, I only evaluated the USB in and Optical in. This was conducted after the Oppo was fully run-in for a week (Oppo recommends about a day). The system was exactly the same for the Yggy and the Oppo. The Ion is a dedicated amplifier for the Comet, so in this case the amp was different. All other aspects were the same. I utilized the stereo XLR analog outs for the Oppo.
Please keep these parameters in mind since my evaluation was for a very specific and narrow purpose and to fill a temporary niche in my system.
With USB in (same chain in for all three components) the Yggy was clearly better to my ears, as was the Exogal Comet Plus. The difference was not night and day, but I could clearly tell what I preferred. In other words, I did not need an extended back and forth parsing to come to a conclusion.
Optical in was very poor in comparison. Something may have been off with my particular unit’s optical input/processing, because it should not have been so dramatically bad in comparison to the Yggy and Comet.
To be sure I was making the right decision, I lived with the 205 in my system for two days after conducting my evaluations and came back to the other components for a few days. I then ran the 205 again after that for another day of listening just to be sure, once again.
I did return the 205 since it did not meet my needs. Please note, that in no way am I saying that I did not like the 205. I am saying it didn’t do what I needed it to do for my particular situation and that I preferred my primary DAC.
I see the 205 being brought back into my system in the future when I can fully take advantage of all that it offers.
In the meantime, I have a 105 sitting unused which I can bring into my system should I need to fill that temporary role until my HT is set up properly.
Thanks for your informative post. I currently own an Oppo UDP-205. Like you, I was part of the pre-rollout wave. At the moment, the 205 is my primary and best source. I am rather pleased with its overall performance and sound quality. However, I do intend to upgrade (i.e. am hopeful and would like too upgrade) my front end source and I'm giving serious consideration to the Schiit Yggdrasil. If I purchase the Yggy, I intend to use the Oppo as transport using its 75 ohm coax output to the Yggy 75 ohm coax input. I see no other choice but optical which I'd like to avoid.
Given the aforementioned and in your opinion, should I expect to hear a *noticeable* improvement in sound quality?
Unfortunately I can't answer your specific question.
I did not use the 205 as a transport with digital coax out to the Yggy.
I'm setup for network based streaming (nearly 100% now).
And yes, Coax or Optical are the only two Digital Outputs from the 205. I'd be open to the optical out as well...never hurts to try. There are converters, but then you'd be adding another box and cables into the mix.
The only way to know for sure is to borrow one (the Yggy) and try it out for yourself. Or order it and opt for the return should it not be what you were expecting. The upside to ordering is that the current Yggys will have the new Gen 5 USB board.
Personally, I consider the Schiit Yggdrasil to be an exceptional DAC. I've upgraded cabling, optimized the USB stream, etc. all with very positive and marked results. For me, it's one of those no brainer recommendations. But as you know, no component is perfect and everyone's preferences are their own.
a25105, I still haven't connected the Oppo 205 to my 2 channel system to compare it to the PS Direct Stream. But I will perhaps next week.
dbphd, I am using Dish, way better picture and sound quality over my previous Comcast.
Personally, I would not buy anything from Schiit. I was treated badly and charged 50% of the purchase price for a return on an item that I only had for 2 weeks and was like new when it was returned. Albeit the item was originally about $150 but 50% was a bit much for restocking, shipping, customer service etc. charges. Never again, there name is appropriate...
Interesting discussion. Seems to suggest that the 205 is good if you need the transport & connection features. For strictly DAC quality, a similar priced, well designed, dedicated product (including the Sonica DAC) will likely result in better sonic quality.
I'm curious because I have a Resonessence Concero HD as my DAC, but I also would like a transport. Was hoping that the 205 might serve that purpose and meet or exceed the Concero DAC.
I would appreciate any comments between them, especially if you have experience with both. Thanks
As a side note, the Resonessence designers came from the Sabre DAC design team, so they know the Sabre chips well. I have heard the Resonessence Veritas ($2850) which wasn't a huge improvement over the Concero for over three times the price. However, the Mirus Pro ($6000) was the best DAC I have heard, but also seven times more costly.
...Personally, I would not buy anything from Schiit. I was treated badly and charged 50% of the purchase price for a return on an item that I only had for 2 weeks and was like new when it was returned. Albeit the item was originally about $150 but 50% was a bit much for restocking, shipping, customer service etc. charges. Never again, there name is appropriate...
@ozzy
That is unfortunate (for me) to read. Were you within the 15 day return windows?
Well I finally did a head to head test between the Oppo 205 XLR analog outs and my Bryston BDP-2 / PS Audio Direct Stream Dac analog outs with the latest Huron firmware. Both were playing the exact same songs from the same external hard drive.
There really was no contest, notes were fuller and more life like with the PS Audio. Music was way more defined with the ability to pick out individual instruments. The Oppo 205 played well and I could see it being used as a all purpose player/Dac until it is compared to much more serious equipment. The Oppo perhaps has about 100 hours of playing time on it so it will get better. However, the gap is way too large to change my opinion.
But, for such a ("Swiss army knife") device the Oppo 205 is great. Play your 4K/Blu Ray movies using the Oppo's analog outs instead of the HDMI/Digital outs and you'll see what I mean. What fantastic surround qualities. And the video... The only problem is the over head Atmos channels can't be used with the analog outs.
@ozzy , I must chime in. Once the 205 has been modified, in my case Modwright tube output stage with separate power supply, the Oppo does come quite close to my DS DAC. It was extremely close before I loaded Huron.
i think the UDP-205 has an excellent DAC chip and mearly needs attention in some other areas. So modding is another alternative to adding a separate DAC. The "Swiss Army knife" can become a special forces tool.
The thought of modifying the 205 crossed my mind as well. A few issues trouble me with that idea though. One, the warranty with Oppo is voided. Two, the expense to get the full mod I understand is between 2 and 3 grand. At that point, a new Shiit Yggy or Mytex Brooklyn DAC just makes more sense (to me). Third, I would be without the 205 for a month or longer while I await the modification. Lastly, there is always a chance (however small) a third-party modification could make things worse.
Thank you Ozzy and Lance for your inputs. How would you rate the analog out performance of the 205? At least half as good as the Directstream or not even close? I am currently using a Parasound Halo integrated as a DAC/preamp (it has a build in ESS 9018) and I just ordered a Oppo 205, just wonder if this is going to be better?
@a25105 , I wished I could comment on the stock 205 but mine was sent direct to modding. The new ESS 9038 DAC chip is supposed to be superior to the older 9018 and from my experience having a modded 105, there is quite a difference. More analog like to me.
If im ranking my DS DAC a perfect 10 then I would rank the modded 205 a 9. Ozzy also has very good points about the mods and I was lucky to get mine early enough to get a considerable discount.
@a25105, the UDP-205 sounds phenomenal. Trust me, and the scores of others on the AVS forum owners thread.
That said, I do take delight in knowing that while my system already sounds great (Oppo UDP-205 >> Musical Fidelity M6si >> Golden Ear Triton Reference), I can at least believe/hope (never know until you get there yourself) that it should only get better with an outboard DAC. What that DAC will be remains to be seen, and at such time I'll use the Oppo as transport.
By the way, there are six usable and one diagnostic digital filters that one can choose from. I've found the default Mini Phase Fast is best. Point though is the sound can be tweaked. XLR and RCA are the same, with the exception that XLR is +6db hotter.
I bought Oppo Sonica DAC couple months ago and as long as I use preamp and not the volume control of the DAC, it sounds very fine. Software is also very easy to use. I use Cat8 Ethernet cable into the DAC and that improved the performance by a magnitude. i don't have 205 to compare.
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