I hope it sounds better than Oppo's Sonica DAC, although I see no reason that it should:
http://www.whathifi.com/oppo/sonica-dac/review
Dave
http://www.whathifi.com/oppo/sonica-dac/review
Dave
Showing 20 responses by dlcockrum
Hi Ozzy, Facts first: The Sonica DAC uses the same DAC chip as the 205 - the ESS ES9038 PRO Sabre DAC .The 205 uses two - but here is the fatal flaw IMO - instead of using the two ESS DAC chips in a dual mono config as some of the better players/DACs out there using the same two chips, Oppo chose to use one for two channel and one for multi-channel, so the two channel mode see no improvement from the second chip beyond what the Sonica provides. Another review of the Sonica DAC (http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/dac/oppo-digital-sonica-dac-review/) substantiates that the 205 uses the same digital hardware, power supply, and architecture as the Sonica DAC and goes further to state that they anticipate that the Sonica DAC will "have the edge" in sound quality since the 205 shares the same circuitry, but with addition of the video, multi-channel circuitry in the single chassis drawing on the same power supply and possibly introducing noise to the two channel circuitry. That makes sense to me. As to the validity of the whathifi reviewer's opinion, who knows.There are no reviews of either product by what I consider to be the more highly-regarded audiophile publications (I have to wonder why that is given all the buzz about Oppo in the past), only home theater publications. I suspect that the rapid acceleration of the sound quality of many digital two-channel products, new and older brands, has caught up to and surpassed Oppo and they are content to be the choice brand of home theater aficionados for the present. Nothing wrong with that, but it does speak to the Oppos competitiveness when two-channel sound quality is the main goal IMO. The good news is that the 205 is, by all accounts, a fine home theater product (video and multichannel) and has what looks to be a first class transport mechanism, so it could be ideal for use in a mixed home theater/multichannel and two channel system WITH the addition of one of the plethora of fine two-channel DACs out there. Ozzy, I have known you for a long time via this forum (all the way back to your SR days) and have great respect for your experience and hearing prowess. I suggest you consider trying a great two-channel DAC fed from your 205's transport and see what you think then. Best to you Ozzy, Dave |
Hi Jeffrey and gdhal, I in no way intended to cast any dispersion on the Sabre DACs. Probably as good as any and better than most. There are also other great DAC chips (AKM used in Esoteric and Hegel products and TI/Burr Brown used in some top DACs) and also the RTR ladder DACs that many prefer. IMO, it’s all about implementation. All things inside an audio component affect the sound quality: DACS, power components, caps and other passive components, opamps, circuit boards, wiring, chassis, etc. The Oppo is a fine multi-channel/video player, but built to a price point. Considering all of its functionality (the "swiss army knife of digital audio/video"), Oppo has done a fantastic job of maximizing performance for $1300. BUT, keeping it real, cost has to have prohibited their use of some critical non-DAC components that are used in the better (and usually more expensive) stand-alone two-channel purpose-driven offerings. If you have doubts about that, maybe call Ric Schultz of EVS who mods the Sonica DAC and discuss this with him as I have. Jeffrey: There are those that are implementing the same Sabre DACs as used in the Oppo 205 in a dual-mono configuration to reduce crosstalk between the channels and for other reasons. Some are operating them at a higher "bias" that is not possible with both channels driven through one DAC chip, partially due to the heat generated by this approach. L.K.S. is one that I am familiar with. gdgal: No disrespect to you either, but are you serious? I can assure you that the implementation of the Sabre DAC in the $9k Ayre unit is much different than the Oppo 205/Sonica DAC. Ayre has risen to the top tier of audio by optimizing the entirety of design and implementation. Why would anyone buy a $9k digital component vs a $1300 one that has much more functionality. Because it sounds better. Dave |
Hi ozzy, Well, you are very well set then! I shoulda known ;) The PS Audio DirectStream is a very fine DAC. Re: the review, I can't see that the reviewer would be sending out a digital signal from the DAC for his review (what would be the point?), if the Sonica even has a digital out. Nonetheless, I agree that the lack of specifics leaves a shadow on the perceived credibility of the review. I had just read it a few days prior to your post and it popped into my mind upon reading your post. Best to you ozzy, Dave |
Hi gdhal, People post all sorts of things - some true, some not. No doubt in my mind there are more satisfied owners (and even die-hard supporters) of Oppos than any other brand, and for good reasons. One is that they likely sell more than anyone else (excepting the Best Buy-type Blu Ray players), another is that they look and perform superbly and, thirdly, Oppo has good customer support and a great marketing strategy - extremely high value and functionality for HT users and music lovers that want something audibly and visually better than the mass-market commodity products at a palatable price, and they tightly control their distribution network to eliminate price slashing, leaving existing owners with good resale value when the new products come out, thus insuring that many will upgrade as their new products are introduced. Gotta love that. Smart. All I’m really getting at is that there are lots of great digital products out there, more every day, and many offer superior sound quality at a price, as well they should for the extras $$. Should one choose to stay with the Oppo and be happy staying put, it’s a win. Should one choose to opt for upgrading to a better DAC product (not DAC chip!) for two-channel critical listening and use the outstanding transport (and possibly but less outstanding its streaming capabilities) as a source to the DAC along with the outstanding video/multichannel functionality for HT, it’s a win. Seems Oppo owners can’t loose! Just don’t buy the hype about the Oppo trashing the better DAC products on sound quality without trying one or a few yourself. Fair enough? Dave |
Hi gdhal, Try http://www.exogal.com/index.php/products/comet-dac You have the list price right at $3500. I actually bought mine used for less than $1500 with Wywires umbilical upgrade and full warranty. I saw new ones selling for under $2k recently, but apparently they sold over the past few days. Have not personally tried a memory stick yet, but Exogal CEO Jeff Haagenstad responds to emails in a few hours or less and I have found him to be pleasant, honest and extremely helpful thus far. He has offered Audiogon members a special price recently on another thread here. Update: The USB A connection on the rear of the Comet is for charging devices like your iPad or phone, not for memory stick input. My Aurender has the memory stick input feature so I never paid much attention to it before. Dave |
ozzy’s comparative ratings of the sound quality of the DirectStream DAC (10) and the 205 (6) seem right on. 4 points is huge! The cost to close at least three of the four points is anywhere from $2500 for the ModWright 205 mod to about the same (possibly less with proper selection) for an excellent used DAC and the necessary digital cable to connect to the 205’s digital output, BUT no SACD through the external DAC. The Modwright tube mod delivers it all, including SACD playback, for $2500. Many pay far more than that for 1 point or less of improvement. Food for thought FWIW. If you think that the ModWright mod will make no improvement or, more ridiculous, make the sound quality worse, you really need to hear a ModWright modded-player for yourself. Dave |
David, Agree that network-based audio changes things up due to the limited streaming/rendering capability of the 205. On comparative sound quality of the MW mod vs a $1k to 2.5k DAC, I have owned 2 so far. The Hegel HD-12 and the Exogal Comet Plus DAC. Both are good DACs in that price range and definitely have their strengths but neither come close to the overall sound quality of my MW5400ES IMO. It comes very close to the excellent purpose-built $7k retail ModWright Elyse DAC I have on loan from a friend. I know that you have a great system and ears. Do you have recommendations for DACs in the $1k to 2.5k price range that can equal the sound quality of a MW-modded 205 for those using disc media as their primary source? Dave |
Understood David. I too have recently become immersed in streaming Tidal and bought a few 192/24 downloads from HDtracks that sound superb. All using an Aurender N100H server/renderer/streamer as the source to the different DACs. I have found that Ethernet cables, USB cables, and great power cords linking these "computer audio" components make even more difference to the sound quality of each than cables/cords to my other equipment. For example, the MW Elyse and the HD-12 love the WW Platinum Starlight 7 USB cable but it is almost unlistenable with the Exogal (way too lean and bright), which greatly prefers the Curious USB cable. All, including the Aurender, seem to respond well to the SR Ethernet Active UEF SE cable which I found to make a very positive difference over a 1 meter generic CAT7 cable from my router/modem to the Aurender. I really like the Exogal Comet Plus (and the HD-12 for that matter - very smooth and easy to listen to), especially with hi-rez downloads. Yet, each time I return to the MW5400ES with redbook or SACD I am reminded of how very, very good the sound quality of that piece is. My inquiry of you for recommendations of DACs in the <$2.5k range that offered comparable sound quality to the MW5400ES/MW205 was asked in all earnestness and I appreciate your earnest response. Best to you David, Dave |
azbrd, Everything you say in your first paragraph is true re: that MW does not touch the digital section directly in their mod, excepting improving the AC quality fed to it, both by use of the Bybee rail and also freeing up the stock unit’s power supply from feeding the analog section and output stage (the massive MW external power supply does that). Comparing the sound quality of my stock Sony 5400ES and my MW 5400ES and assuming that the SQ improvement between the stock 105 vs 205 is similar to redbook vs SACD, I honestly can’t imagine that the stock 205 would be close to the MW105 in SQ. Redbook on the MW is much better sounding than SACD on the stock unit. The stock and MW version are on far different levels of sound quality IME and the improvement is much more than a new-version DAC chip could ever produce IMO. If using to feed a DAC through one of the digital outputs, there might be minimal difference in SQ between stock and the MW. Dave |
Can’t argue that the room is the weak point. Investment should be made here as one of the first steps for any serious audio system IMO. Yet, we can only get the room so good. But that is not the topic of this thread. Much out there already about this. The recording/mastering process remains the primary determinant of/limitation to sound quality. Study the stages of signal degradation (starting with the microphone) that our media suffers prior to even being presented for reproduction. Is your point that we should just throw in the towel on component improvement since perfection will never be achieved re: room/speakers? Many current and past speakers are plenty good enough to hear differences in SQ of sources and amplification. As for "inaudible gains", I feel sure we would all like to read of your real-life personal experiences that support this rather than only unsubstantiated opinion. Dave |