Old phones as streaming sources

I use an old decommissioned iPhone in my car, sending downloaded Deezer through the lightening jack to my car’s DAC. I’m happy with it. Any additional benefit would be lost in that environment anyway.

ok, i’ll go!  regarding reference music, I don’t know, I think live music and my system at home are very different.  For example, my most recent live music experiences, both very recent, were Blues Alley (very small) and Kennedy Center (much bigger but not huge).  In both cases, instruments were amplified, and there’s no “soundstage” to speak of.  So my view is that soundstage is an audiophile artifice created to replace the visual experience of live music.  It’s not really about recreating the auditory experience of live music.  

Re good recordings, totally agree, the quality of the recording really matters to my enjoyment.  There are some recordings that just suck, no matter how great the artist performance may have been.

Interesting discussion so far. Thanks to all of you Who’ve taken time to contribute. Stepping back a bit, I noticed on this thread, but also many many others that “quality “is either expressly or implicitly referenced to another piece of similar equipment or to price. I know I am not unique in this, but I try to reference my listening experience to similar live music. Since I tend to like small group, jazz, and classical, this is reasonably easy to do and I take every opportunity I can to refresh my memory by attending concerts. Within that framework I find that reproduced music at home merely has to reach a certain threshold and then it is OK for me. I can’t help but wonder if the concept of “better” gets confused with “different“ by those who compare one piece of equipment to another as the reference. Your thoughts most welcome.

Another observation is that when music reaches that nebulous “OK “level. The quality of the recording itself becomes much more controlling of the overall experience. There are some recordings which no matter how good the system is just don’t create aural excitement for me :-) Anyone else find that to be true?

@lanx0003 I was surprised at how it sounded.  It was much better than I expected given all the shade being thrown around on this thread.  Even though I know it can be bettered, if I had no choice other than streaming from an iPhone, I could certainly still enjoy listening on my system.

@lanx0003 

Oh, no, the E70 I have is the one with the ESS 9028pro chip; I spent the huge sum of $349 on it!  The $600 was a reference to my Pro-Ject Stream Box S2 Ultra; it normally sells for $899; I misspoke, as I got it open box for $699, not $600.  I may upgrade from the Topping at some point, but it’s not a priority, as it’s part of my vintage system, which is very vinyl-centric.

The Okto is the Czech-made DAC in my family room system; if memory serves, I paid about $1,200 for it, and installed a Pi in it myself, as they were experiencing supply chain issues at the time.  All of my systems are posted, with pix, on my systems page.

sorry, i thought you were talking about $600 on the topping dac alone and led me to think the 'Octo'.  I did try e70 Velvet and it did throw deeper SS relative to previous topping dac I had but not really stand up to the Schiit dac whose house sound I like better. I kinda give up the mass production chifi dac now including smsl.  I may jump up to Denafrips Pontus II after I sort out which streamer I want to upgrade to as a whole digital source package.

@jastralfu  I do not have that level of DDC/DAC combo as the benchmark to do the comparison. However, to do justice to the iPhone 13, I switch it to airplane mode (but leave Wi-Fi on for Qobuz), turn off all notifications, Siri, and all other possible interferences I could think of. The test track was 'Fever' by Chantal Chamberland. With my iFi-ZS (with Lhy LPS) and Schiit Modius combination, paired with Burchardt S400 II, I would agree with you that the SS disparity is noticeable, but I also notice a volume level difference. The iFi-ZS volume output level is a bit higher. After I match the volume, the SS disparity is somewhat less. I would say it shrinks from a bit beyond the speakers down to right on the speaker. However, even though I was doing low-level listening, the bass articulation from both is pretty much on par. The midrange body is slightly less on the iPhone, but not by much. The treble details and airiness from the iPhone are impressive too. I would expect these disparities to be intensified with more revealing source components, as you have.  

@lanx0003 

btw, we ran the okto unbalanced - it’s really designed for balanced, so we sacrificed a few db of its very high SNR in the test.  I use Cardas converters, which are really well made, but still….

agree re our convos.  have enjoyed your persoective.  re okto, I like it a lot.  it’s in a really nice, “budget” system I put together that is not set up for critical listening due to room constraints,  even so it sounds very, very good.  I did a dac shoutout with a good friend in his highly resolving system: dcs bartok, gold note ds10 (with evo ps), okto and mytek brooklyn. my faves, in order, were gn, dcs, okto, mytek.  okto had everything, but not quite as full bodied as dcs.  i thought gn had a little more “bloom” or meat than dcs, which I like.  btw, my topping is an e70 - I like it, but honestly, I’m more a vinyl guy at heart - goes better with tubes and single malt!

@mdalton All the ’phone’ conversations we’ve exchanged, including those with Op, are not an attempt to substitute the cell phone as the main streamer. Instead, it’s an open discussion on the ’possibility.’ I have Ifi ZS myself, two of them, with one fed by Ifi iPower X and the other on a 25 VA LPS by Lhy. Both serve me well, but I find my iPhone 13 is no slouch either. Whether it is used as a backup is strictly up to you, but I want to emphasize that it should be a personal choice rather than a prejudice. I want to give the iPhone a fair trial and do it justice.

How you like your D70 Pro Octo? I have tried couple of sub. $500 Topping dac and return / sell all of them due to basically flat SS (lack of depth). Curious about Octo given all the rave reviews.

So I went to the Apple Store and bought the lightning to USB A connector and hooked up an old iPhone 8 that I had lying around.  I thought it sounded alright.  Can it be bettered?  Yes by a lot, but it was better than decent.  There was a noticeable drop in soundstage depth and width, as well as a decrease in detail, imaging and transients compared to my Pontus II and Hermes setup.  But for a secondary system it would be serviceable especially if money was tight and it was intended for background music or something similar and not for critical listening.

@lanx0003 

reread your post again. I think you misunderstood my point.  “Overkill” as in unnecessary, but not necessarily detrimental.  iPhones are powerful and pretty sophisticated, with all sorts of capabilities, and their prices reflect that.  So unless I were so cash-constrained that the only device I could afford was an extra phone lying around, I wouldn’t use a phone as my streamer.  I’d just buy an RPi or a Wiim product.  In a couple of my systems, I went a little beyond that for form function reasons, and because they were paired with DACs that I wasn’t sure how well they’d handle noise - I bought the Zen Stream and now have it paired with an iFi Zen dac, and I bought an open-box Pro-Ject S2 Ultra Stream to pair with a Topping DAC (that one still felt a little pricey even at $600, but it’s very cool, and almost as small as a Pi).  In both those systems, I experimented with the Pi, and was pleasantly surprised how good they sounded.  But the Pi is a little kludgy, so I gave it to my son-in-law, who has repurposed it in his home security system - gotta love the Pi!

@lanx0003 

Not really my main point, but the sonictransporter, acting as my Roon core, is doing a lot more processing than the streamer.  But the fact that it runs at about the same speed as a phone is actually telling, isn’t it?  Nonetheless, I also agree that speed isn’t everything.  

I hope you don’t mean the processor power is the fault. The SGC sonicTransporter i5 you have runs on an Intel i5 processor at 3.6 GHz. The Ifi ZS runs at 1.4 GHz, and the Raspberry Pi is becoming more powerful, with the Pi-5 at 2.4 GHz. Several mid-end streamers like Innuos, hi-end like Aurender also use increasingly powerful CPUs such as Intel quad-core processors running at 2.5 GHz. As a comparison, the CPU speed on iPhones, ranging from 1.8 GHz on the iPhone 6s to 3.5 GHz on the iPhone 14, is by no means an overkill. A more powerful CPU is not a fault; how the circuit is optimized and implemented to achieve better sound quality is the key. I would wager that the trend among higher-end streamers will lean towards processors that are more powerful yet low in power consumption with better energy efficiency etc...

@mdalton I myself would never use a phone as my streamer because a modern IPhone is overkill for what is actually a very simple process ... Current iPhones run at 3.5 ghz, the Raspberry Pi is 1.5 ghz, and the Apollo 11 computer ran at .043 mhz (lol!)

@mdalton +1

that’s an example of “petitio principii” (assuming the original point).  The OP and some others seem to have experienced quite good, “audiophile” results using their phones.  I myself would never use a phone as my streamer because a modern IPhone is overkill for what is actually a very simple process - assuming functions like reclocking, up sampling or DSP are done elsewhere - requiring a very simple computer.  Current iPhones run at 3.5 ghz, the Raspberry Pi is 1.5 ghz, and the Apollo 11 computer ran at .043 mhz (lol!).  

When I first got serious about streaming, I built my own RPi streamer as a learning experience.  I don’t think being an audiophile should be equated to some level of expenditure (though I’ve spent a fair amount, admittedly).  But I think alot of audiophiles are a little intimidated by servers, streamers and the like because they involve technology that is not intuitive for most of us.  And I believe that there are companies out there that take advantage of that, and market products that may not do what we want to believe they do.  

The number of times I hear non-experts (like me!) say that something is less noisy, or “lowers the noise floor”, and then dismiss actual test results showing something different is incalculable.  That’s why I think threads like this, conducted in a civil way, are important.  We should have these conversations.  That’s what audiophiles do.  Respectfully.

Another thread derailed by predictable acrimony.  I’ve used a phone tethered to my DAC as a streamer just to experiment and yes, it sounded a lot better than I would have expected.  Would I want it as my everyday streamer?  No, it isn’t that good, and this is an audiophile site, where we all want the best.  I think that’s what others are saying here, but no one is proposing that’s phone is the ultimate streaming end point 

well there it is! @ghdprentice has spoken! can’t believe we wasted our time on this topic.  thx so much for enlightening us!

A good quality DAC will not make up for deficiencies in the streamer and visa versa. 

@soix 

You seem very angry.  I’ve complimented your decisions about your system, and i meant it!  But you’ve accused me of bad judgment, called me a fool, and described my well-supported opinions as absurd.  I’m pretty sure that we would find each other’s systems to be awesome.  So I’d recommend that you ratchet back the acrimony, and try to find the love of the hobby that we share.

@soix I respect your contributions to other threads but frankly in this one you have not brought much to the table other than relying on cost and other peoples opinions to support your view. I was already aware of those items before I started the thread. You said you used an iphone and did not like it, did you try some of the things mentioned in this thread to optimize it before you wrote it off?

You are right noise is an issue but if you shut down un-needed services on the phone you are left with a capable battery powered streamer. You can't get a more quiet power supply than a battery. I'm not saying it is the ultimate streamer but I suspect it may be better than many.  You made an earlier comment

the iPhone is not a great streamer — in fact it pretty much sucks IME.  It’s functional but so is a Toyota Corolla — doesn’t make it a great car.

That's a pretty good analogy because I think the Corolla is a great car if you are looking for reliable, economical transportation. It does everything a Lexus does for a lot less and allows you to put your remaining money to use on something you consider more worthwhile. You do know that frequently more than half of the materials cost of a piece of hifi gear is in the case, right? For some that is worth it ,for others there are better uses of the dough.

@soix 

of course you heard the difference without the ddc!  that was precisely my point!  your dac is not immune to noise.  so there was an obvious difference between the phone and the zen.  that’s what I would have predicted!

though I would never recommend an Aurender or its ilk as I think they are dramatically overpriced for what you get

@mdalton Yeah, that’s just absurd IMHO.

You also didn’t spend a bunch on a streamer, opting for the zen, which seems smart to me

Yeah, I didn’t but even without the DDC I heard a huge improvement over an iPhone/iPad.  Hey, but if you think an iPhone is a great streamer then you do you.  If you can’t hear the difference I feel pretty sorry for you.

@soix 

I didn’t actually make such a blanket statement, no.  I can imagine there are $10k DACs that do a poor job of cleaning up noise on the incoming digital signal, in which case I would definitely recommend a well-engineered, noise-free streamer (though I would never recommend an Aurender or its ilk as I think they are dramatically overpriced for what you get).  

In your case, you have a Denafrips ddc which cleans everything up before your NOS dac, which makes a lot of sense.  You also didn’t spend a bunch on a streamer, opting for the zen, which seems smart to me (I have one in one of my systems too btw).  But frankly, you could prob go even cheaper - e.g. RPi) if you wanted - I did that exact experiment.

Finally, I would note, as discussed in another thread, that Benchmark, who makes some of the quietest, most resolving DACs and amps extent, have said that streamers don’t make a difference with their DACs.  Re rocking on, I’m more of a jazz dude, but I appreciate the sentiment.

@mdalton By that logic you can feed a $10k DAC with an iPhone and be no better off if you use a good Aurender, Grimm, Innuos, etc. streamer.  Is that your contention?  I don’t think there are many people here with good DACs who would use an iPhone as a streaming source.  I did, and it sucked and would assume most others would find the same.  But hey, if an iPhone works for you then rock on dude.

posted this earlier, but in case you missed it.  noise is easy to measure.  so while different streamers can be noisier and have higher levels of jitter, some, but not all, DACs can level the playing field, making it unnecessary to spend big $ on streamers.  

@lanx0003  What you fail to recognize is that noise is the mortal enemy of good streaming, and an iPhone is about the noisiest source possible for streaming.  Streamers go to great lengths to minimize noise while the iPhone does nothing in that regard and has tons of electronics — as well as being a phone — running as it’s streaming music.  No bueno.  I started streaming with an iPhone and it’s fine but it’s absolute crap relative to a decent streamer.  It’s a Jack of all trades and master of nothing, especially when it comes to audio.

OP, debating whether the iPhone is a decent streamer with audiophiles who own expensive streamers in the thousands or even tens of thousands may not be worthwhile. Individuals should experiment if they are interested. People tend to defend the significant expense they have already incurred, and it's unlikely that they will admit the potential diminished return value proposition that a seemingly free streamer like the iPhone may offer.  Iphone as a streamer amazes me in the following aspects:

1. It is a bit-perfect ready streaming device up to 24 bit 192 khz as long as supported by the app.
2. It is a low jitter performer like other quality streamers;
3. You could run almost all music streaming service provider app on iphone including Roon Remote.  Some streamers like ifi Zen Stream can not allow one to run Qobuz directly and need to go through Upnp app like Mconnect.
4. The iPhone boasts multiple (4-6) GB of RAM, with models like the iPhone 13 having 3.55 GB of usable RAM. It's quick on indexing music files and processing essential features like gapless playback, making it comparable or even superior to some expensive streamers. For comparison, devices like Ifi ZS have 1 GB, Auralic started with 1 GB and recently increased to 4 GB, Hifi Rose has 4 GB, Lumin ranges from 2-8 GB, Aurender has 8 GB, etc. Notably, the Wiim mini has only 128 MB of RAM (Wiim Pro has 512 MB) to support bit-perfect streaming up to 24-bit 192 kHz. 
5. Iphone allows one to play music from local USB storage through external USB hub and adapters.
6. Finally, iphone has the most compact form factor as a streamer.

Apple has already integrated and established these specifications in the iPhone quite some time ago to support online music streaming and local music playing, predating the availability of both cheap and expensive streamers in the market today. One might raise the question, 'So what? How about the most important aspect - sound quality?' To that end, I have personally tried and attested, as have several others. I'll leave it to you to explore if you are interested.

@ghdprentice "The moral of the story is that everything matters."

Yes, I do agree. Maybe some things more than others.

I still have to buy a streamer to find out if it would offer a better audible sound quality to me compared to my actual setup. Due to budget constraints, this is not going to happen very soon.

@eagledriver_22 …”This leads to my conclusion that every one who is interested in this topic needs to find out for himself where the truth lies. ”

Yes, very true. For me, I have been really amazed at how much the streamer makes a difference. But of course an inferior DAC will compromise the sound as well. The moral of the story is that everything matters. 

'A friend of mine mentioned that Aurender said somewhere in their literature that the streamer accounts for 70% of the sound quality of a system vs 30% DAC.'

I have found the following excerpt (opinion) on  Moon Audio's website:

'In our opinion, the DAC will account for about 70% of the sound quality, with the streamer accounting for the other 30%. So spend more money on your DAC (if you're buying one). But know that both are important.'

Now what?

This leads to my conclusion that every one who is interested in this topic needs to find out for himself where the truth lies. Like many other comments on various topics in this forum, I would assume 'it depends'.

I for myself prefer to use the time needed to find the answer to above for listening to music instead. That said, I found a very nice recording just this weekend of the Willis Jackson Quintet,  'Cool Grits'.

I needed to start this title right now after realizing that it seems that I am a bit overwhelmed.. 'Cool Grits' does some good soothing..

This statement is not ment to be sarcastic.

Cheers! to all of you

“A friend of mine mentioned that Aurender said somewhere in their literature that the streamer accounts for 70% of the sound quality of a system vs 30% DAC…”

I don’t mean any disrespect, and I am sure your system sounds great, but that’s absurd (unless the DAC design leaves the DAC completely vulnerable to jitter and other noise).  Of course Aurender would make that argument!  Their comparative advantage, particularly from a branding and marketing perspective, is in streaming.  If someone were to believe that the streamer is less important, they wouldn’t get an Aurender.  So it is axiomatic that Aurender would make that claim.  

I stream from a iPhone 7 to Chord Mojo to headphones. I have also read many reviews of the Mojo, some purely subjective and some with measurements. I also have a TempoTec Sonata BHD Pro Type C. Mojo delivers a less technically correct sound that is relatively easy on the ears, robust and smooth. I bought the tempotec based on it being a good value based on a stellar review and measurements. It is more detailed, crisp and dynamic sounding than the Mojo. You hear all the details with the Tempotec with no sugar coating. Which sounds better? As usual, that is a subjective determination and YMMV based on personal preference. I would probably go with the Mojo for an easier listening experience but the tempotec in order to hear everything on a recording the way it was intended to be heard ie more of a “monitor” kind of sound. I mean that as a compliment. Neither is offensive in any way nor could the sound be deemed bad. As the old analogy goes they are like two very different yet very lovely ladies. Again this is with headphone listening and Each might choose differently. I’ve tried the Mojo as a source in my good hi system and it did well there but it has been awhile and I have not revisited that. Someday I may try the tempotec there and see though it is really intended mainly for use with headphone. Never the less, I have yet to be able to confirm that “higher end” necessarily means better as opposed to perhaps a different flavor of sound case by case and that such judgements are anything more than subjective as a whole, though no doubt there are some very good sounding DACs at all price points these days compared to years past. As always YMMV.

From an earlier in this post, I said …” I have streamed from about every device you can think of.” Let me go into a bit more detail.

I have owned / used extensively in my systems: iPods, iPhones, iPads, several MACs, PCs (some optimized by shutting down processes, heavily conditioned power source, using different CODEX and software, sound cards, etc), several DAPs (including my $3.5K one), And many dedicated streamers including, Aurlic Aries G2, Aurrender N100, N10, N20, and my current W20SE ($22K), Linn, Grimm MU1, Lina… and I am sure I sure I have forgotten a few.

The streamer is a critical component in sound quality of a digital system… and iPhones, iPads, Macs and the like sound pretty good, but are simply not in the same league as dedicated streamers. The gap is big at the low end and simply gets bigger and bigger as one moves up the quality level of the streamers / systems.

I have found that Aurender are at the top of the class at every level of expenditure and each level up affords a substantial improvement in sound quality over the last. I climbed slowly to this level, where my system is today, over a period of twenty years. My current digital end being equal in sound quality to my really good analog end.

A friend of mine mentioned that Aurender said somewhere in their literature that the streamer accounts for 70% of the sound quality of a system vs 30% DAC. While this kind of thing is not analytical… but intended to convey the importance. The problem is, you can’t use a low end DAC and a high end streamer, this is the first thing someone will counter with. But if you are talking high end components in roughly the same class… so say a Berkely Alpha 3 DAC and a Aurrender N20… the component that is vastly controlling the sound quality is the streamer.

particularly in light of the science and measurements of some credible audio professionals that support the OP’s position. 

And who would that be?

I don’t know. but it seems to me that in order to be so definitive about a position, it would seem incumbent on the person arguing that position to cite something other than “people who have better streamers”, particularly in light of the science and measurements of some credible audio professionals that support the OP’s position.  And I commend the OP for his much more humble approach here, and for acknowledging out loud what virtually every male over 50 years of age - most of us on this forum lol! - are experiencing.  Michael Fremer did a rather courageous review a couple years ago of hearing aids.  

Hey @soix unlike some others on this forum I don't hold myself out as a self-annointed expert.

I’m not a self-anointed expert, but it’s pretty clear if you listen to people here who have better streamers from the likes of Aurender, Grimm, Innuos, etc. that streamers matter and the iPhone is not a great streamer — in fact it pretty much sucks IME.  It’s functional but so is a Toyota Corolla — doesn’t make it a great car.  The iPhone is a functional streamer and trying to elevate it past that is just silly talk.  You can’t hear past 11kHz so not surprised you can’t hear the difference, but that’s you and not most of us.  

Hey @soix unlike some others on this forum I don't hold myself out as a self-annointed expert. I am merely a thinking human who likes audio gear and music. That exactly why I share my limitations. Younger folks may hear things quite differently, but ironicaly from what I can tell, they mostly are happy with much more modest gear. How old are you and how is your hearing?

As for streamers I own or have owned they would include a Pi, an Auralic Aries, a Yamaha WXC-50, and an OktoResearch Dac8 and of course a couple of computers and iphones. Think I mentioned some of these earlier in the thread.

In other words it does not appear to me that there are strong technical reasons that a modest streamer such as a phone can't produce good audio if run through a quality dac...and that is what my ears have been telling me.

@bruce19  Do tell, what other streamers have you compared to the iPhone?  Frankly, with your self-professed very compromised hearing your credibility on this topic is pretty low from my perspective.

I have an S21 with half a terabyte of memory and I put most of my CD's in it as WAV files. Plug that into a Mojo and headphones into that and it makes for a nice little setup.  Sometimes I use it in the car system.

I hope you will report your findings back here if you do. I'm interested.

Thank you for checking it out, OP.  May reach out to Archimago and/or Miller AR for a possible answer.

@lanx0003 Invested a bit more time and watched this 25 minute video with citations about the nature and measurement of jitter.

Leads me to believe it is not that big of an issue. Which, taken with the info discussed above casts some real doubt in my mind about how important the streamer is relative to the dac.

In other words it does not appear to me that there are strong technical reasons that a modest streamer such as a phone can't produce good audio if run through a quality dac...and that is what my ears have been telling me. Now in the interest of full disclosure and fairness I am 71 and have tested my hearing and know it it, at best extends to 11 khz. Amir points out that perception of jitter is most easily perceived in the frequencies closer to 20 khz. So maybe younger listeners could be more sensitive. 

I have an iPhone 7 still and use it to stream to high quality headphones and ear monitors via similar good quality headphone amps. The sound is as detailed and articulate as I have heard. YMMV but clearly on the grand scale of things audiophile level results can be had from older IPhone using the right external gear, which need not even cost a fortune. But you do have to do your homework and choose wisely which means do not limit your sources to sites that specialize in high end gear because those will totally overlook the very affordable diamonds in the rough out there for this kind of thing. Do not under estimate the capabilities and value proposition of the latest digital technology! You might be very pleasantly surprised.

@lanx0003 Your question is a good one and the bottom line is I don't know how to answer it with confidence. This is one of the more pertinent statements I found.

 

What Is Jitter in Audio? - Headfonics

Headfonics

Apparently there are multiple ways to measure jitter and display it, sometimes across the audio spectrum and sometimes as a single number. I opted for the audio spectrum displays because they were available from both sources. Perhaps someone with deeper knowledge will help us out with a clearer explanation of how to compare the two.

Software based DACs in smartphones will always be inferior, but better than nothing in a house system, decent for headphones and for streaming in the car.

@tubeguy76 

Ok, sorry about that.  But if you read the Archimago stuff, or if you look at the HiFi News reviews with measurements, the point is not that every streamer measures the same, or will sound the same.  What they demonstrate is that with some DACs, any differences with stream can be almost completely eliminated.  So it might be helpful if you gave a little more info on your experience.

@mdalton 
Don't get so defensive, it's going to be ok.

@tubeguy76 

wrll there you have it!  guess we’re done!