Old phones as streaming sources

That is a nice piece by archimago, almost exactly what I was looking for except it would have been better if he could have measured output from one or more of the high end devices he mentions at the start of the piece, as well. It is difficult to agree with his blanket dismissal of them without actually including them in the test. In the end he measured several devices that many would consider sub-optimal streaming source and concluded they were all the same.

One can also wonder if there could be a better technique than measuring the dac outputs. Conceivably the dac exerts a leveling influence so that it could be argued it is making all digital streams look the same to the measuring instruments.  I am not techically astute enough to say but I wonder if it is possible to measure the digital output directly from the streamer and be able to say anything meaningful. Perhaps one of knowledgeable forum mates can say.

Hey @soix unlike some others on this forum I don't hold myself out as a self-annointed expert. I am merely a thinking human who likes audio gear and music. That exactly why I share my limitations. Younger folks may hear things quite differently, but ironicaly from what I can tell, they mostly are happy with much more modest gear. How old are you and how is your hearing?

As for streamers I own or have owned they would include a Pi, an Auralic Aries, a Yamaha WXC-50, and an OktoResearch Dac8 and of course a couple of computers and iphones. Think I mentioned some of these earlier in the thread.

@mdalton +1

Well that is fine @soix , but I think you would be better served by prefacing your comments with "in my opinion" which is what it is. My points of reference are a Auralic Aries streamer and a OktoResearch Dac8, both of which are in another league than the reference streamers you mention. Mind you I am not claiming the phone to be as good as these but I find it quite listenable. May I ask if you even tried the tweaks I describe when you were listening with your iphone? Did you run it though a decent dac, you know some dacs do a better job than others in handling a digital stream. Thanks for your response  but I think my little old iphone is on a par with my Raspberry Pi/Allo Digione. Anyone who says that kind of performance "sucks" is using a stronger word than is merited IMHO..

My central point is that by stripping away as many of the non-essential functions of the phone as possible I perceive it to improve as a digital source and I wonder if others have similar experiences. The persuasive explanation for this would be the reduction of electrical noise improves clarity and coherence of the digital signal. After all, it  is generally accepted that one of the best and quietest power supplies possible is a battery. I believe that Audirvana claimed to do something similar for users of computers as digital sources. This is just doing the same but manually.

If anyone has measurement capabilities for this sort of thing it would be fascinating to know what you find.

@soix 

So, did you compare running the iPhone direct into the DAC8 versus going through your Aries?  If you don’t hear a significant improvement through the Aries, well, let’s  just say we greatly differ in our experiences.

The Auralic Aries is a source with no dac so no to that. I don't have the adapters to connect the phone to the Okto, but it is worth noting that the streaming source inside the Okto Dac8 is a Raspberry Pi 4 connected to the rest of the dac and preamp circuits though an I squared S connection. So a modest streaming source (cost about $100, maybe less now) can garner an  A+ rating from Stereophile when associated with the right electronic surroundings. Point being some devices not created for the audiophile world can still deliver world class performances and don't have to cost an arm and a leg.

@fuzztone It needs to be noted that a Pi is not a "single purpose" built device. It was conceived and built as a small computer that would be a teaching tool to get young folks interested in computers and programming. They are frequently used as a very affordable around computer. In contrast the electronics in an iphone are much more sophisticated, but that is why for our purposes it might be worthwhile to shut down most of the unnecessary functions.

I go back to the beauty of the battery power since in much of our hifi world it is the quality of the power supply that is the foundation of audio fidelity, and you just can't do much better than a battery. The extreme energy efficiency and nano scale design elements of todays phones permit tiny batteries.

@soix referenced an Ifi Zen streamer. I have not heard one, but have read good things about them and he attests  to this. I don't know for sure but based on the reasonable price of the Zen streamer I wouldn't be surprised if it is not based on the Pi or some small computer very similar. The further refinement comes from the power supply and the handling of the digital output, as I understand it.

Earlier in the thread some negativity if not distinct animosity was directed at the poor little phone. It stinks, is shite, it sucks, ….really? I feel some need to defend this diminutive communications device and it’s heritage, particularly as it pertains to our hobby.
To start with consider the amplifier; invented by Bell telephone in Murray Hill NJ to strengthen voice signals as they traveled long distances. the tube…ditto, the transistor…yep, cables… nobody knew more about those than good old Ma Bell. Satellites, networks, yea, yea, yea, Bell Tel.
Why were all these miracles of tech derived from the phone? In good measure because the American Telephone and Telegraph company had a monopoly that brought in almost unlimited funds and management was very nervous of the government breaking up this sweet deal as they had with most other monopolies in the early 1900’s. To their credit Bell set themselves a mission to continually deliver communications that were better AND cheaper. It worked for a while.
Today we have Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. They are our modern day monopolies and oddly enough phones and networks are still a big part of how they deliver the fruits of their R&D labors to us consumers. One very small, tiny, minuscule fraction of their markets is the audiophile world and it’s spinoff companies. So lets have just a bit more respect for the cell phone and it’s inner workings which include knowledge of quantum mechanics and nano scale technology.

If any of this little rant appeals to you and you would like to know more about this dimension of hi-fi tech history I highly recommend “The Idea Factory: Bell Labs and the Great Age of American Innovation” by Jon Gertner. A great read.

That more like it. I was beginning to feel completely mis-understood, not to mention stirring some mysterious anger towards inanimate objects that is just not good for you, people.

Thanks for this first line @benanders 

you recruited a lot of single samples united by a culture of expectation bias x rejection of scientific process. 
There are ways to tell if an iPhone is an audibly inferior streamer. No one who responded has done the required steps to make the aforementioned claims of inferiority, so far as this thread reads. That would require an understanding of experimental design, basic statistics, and a fair amount of time/effort.

I read it when I got up this morning and am still trying to parse it, but it sounds damn good. As for what follows you are right on. I started the post in hopes that someone with the time, interest and right knowledge might be tempted to try to objectively validate what I think I hear. Maybe there are some reviewers (I know you are out there) on this thread who may see fit to address the question.

@eagledriver_22 Good on you too mate! I don't have andoid but I bet there are folks on the thread who will appreciate your sharing and i will check out the ios app you mention. I have Roon and can make my old phone a roon endpoint so that serves nicely when I am home and for simplicity I run the Qobuz app on the road.

@lanx0003 Well I'm open to the notion that it could all be fictitious. Personal experiance suggests there ARE differences between streamers BUT I have never been "blown away" by those differences as some profess to have been. My experiance with subjective listening is that my judgement is clouded by all kinds of influences. I like it when measurement backstops perception and vice versa, but we don't get that all the time in this hobby. And then there is the vexing question when listening subjectively whether different=better. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I like the term that I think Archimago used somewhere in his blog arguing that some of us a Euphonophiles, meaning we like the sound what we like, not necessarily the most faithful reproduction. I think that is true. Me, I try to have it both ways. I have some equipment that leans toward accuracy and others that produce very pleasing distortion. Both are ok.

@mdalton Thanks. Was not aware of hifi news. The really do have a who’s who of high end streamer tests!

So lets assume that frequency and noise floor are pretty much settled issues with differences that are pretty much below the human level of detection in any competently designed streamer (at least that’s my opinion), and focus on jitter which seems very likely to be able to impair things like coherency, image and sound-stage. so here is the chart for the Grimm mu1, a very nice $10,000 streamer, Grimm Mu1

and here is the similar chart for the four "working class" streaming sources in the Archimago blog article, Working Class streamers

Taken at face value the "working class" group seems to surpass the aristocrat.(for  the benefit of anyone reading this I looked at the measurements of several aristocrats on the HIFI site and their measurements were strikingly similar) Now I know enough about testing and charts to know there are variables that may not have been equal in the setup and testing from these two different sources so I would not say that this is a rock solid conclusion, but at the least it does argue that there is not much difference insofar as this measurement relates to perceived sound quality.

@lanx0003 Invested a bit more time and watched this 25 minute video with citations about the nature and measurement of jitter.

Leads me to believe it is not that big of an issue. Which, taken with the info discussed above casts some real doubt in my mind about how important the streamer is relative to the dac.

In other words it does not appear to me that there are strong technical reasons that a modest streamer such as a phone can't produce good audio if run through a quality dac...and that is what my ears have been telling me. Now in the interest of full disclosure and fairness I am 71 and have tested my hearing and know it it, at best extends to 11 khz. Amir points out that perception of jitter is most easily perceived in the frequencies closer to 20 khz. So maybe younger listeners could be more sensitive. 

@lanx0003 Your question is a good one and the bottom line is I don't know how to answer it with confidence. This is one of the more pertinent statements I found.

 

What Is Jitter in Audio? - Headfonics

Headfonics

Apparently there are multiple ways to measure jitter and display it, sometimes across the audio spectrum and sometimes as a single number. I opted for the audio spectrum displays because they were available from both sources. Perhaps someone with deeper knowledge will help us out with a clearer explanation of how to compare the two.

I hope you will report your findings back here if you do. I'm interested.

@soix I respect your contributions to other threads but frankly in this one you have not brought much to the table other than relying on cost and other peoples opinions to support your view. I was already aware of those items before I started the thread. You said you used an iphone and did not like it, did you try some of the things mentioned in this thread to optimize it before you wrote it off?

You are right noise is an issue but if you shut down un-needed services on the phone you are left with a capable battery powered streamer. You can't get a more quiet power supply than a battery. I'm not saying it is the ultimate streamer but I suspect it may be better than many.  You made an earlier comment

the iPhone is not a great streamer — in fact it pretty much sucks IME.  It’s functional but so is a Toyota Corolla — doesn’t make it a great car.

That's a pretty good analogy because I think the Corolla is a great car if you are looking for reliable, economical transportation. It does everything a Lexus does for a lot less and allows you to put your remaining money to use on something you consider more worthwhile. You do know that frequently more than half of the materials cost of a piece of hifi gear is in the case, right? For some that is worth it ,for others there are better uses of the dough.

Interesting discussion so far. Thanks to all of you Who’ve taken time to contribute. Stepping back a bit, I noticed on this thread, but also many many others that “quality “is either expressly or implicitly referenced to another piece of similar equipment or to price. I know I am not unique in this, but I try to reference my listening experience to similar live music. Since I tend to like small group, jazz, and classical, this is reasonably easy to do and I take every opportunity I can to refresh my memory by attending concerts. Within that framework I find that reproduced music at home merely has to reach a certain threshold and then it is OK for me. I can’t help but wonder if the concept of “better” gets confused with “different“ by those who compare one piece of equipment to another as the reference. Your thoughts most welcome.

Another observation is that when music reaches that nebulous “OK “level. The quality of the recording itself becomes much more controlling of the overall experience. There are some recordings which no matter how good the system is just don’t create aural excitement for me :-) Anyone else find that to be true?