Now it's subs

I think REL is missing out on a a marketing opportunity by not making a backwards compatible "Longbow" wireless gizmo, as I think a lot of current REL owners would love to bag the cable (or cables…I had to combine 2 REL cables into one connector to fit on my amp posts) which would also allow for MUCH easier sub placement. Currently the Longbow is only available on new models…I wonder how hard it would be to design one for the rest of us...

I run a pair of Magnepan 3.7s with a pair of Gallo 10" subs.  The subs are run through a DSPEAKER.  It gives pretty impressive sound.  The thing I wish for most is a volume remote for the subs.  I wouldn't need one if I always listened at the same volume and the recordings all generated the same spl but I don't and they don't. Does anyone know if you can add an aftermarket remote sub volume control?

i am a total novice about subs but just got a REL s/3 and am very pleased with what it adds to the sounds.  so i agree with JKUC above about REL for audio systems.  the funny thing is how much more expansive and full the sound is with the sub.  it does more than just add bass but fills out the sound in a wonderful way.  the thing is to make sure the sub matches the speakers: i had written REL for advice and told them what i had and they recommended a pair of S/3, but said to start with one and add another as money permits. 

Most subs  are designed and designated for home theatre and are not recommended for audio systems. The exception are REL's,  very "musical" subs. Another advantage of REL, you can use it in stereo system (high level connection) and at the same time integrate it into home theatre at the same time (low level connection). You can connect other subs one way only,  either low level or high level but can't use both at the same time.
I use REL B2.  

Subs should not be a mystery to audiophiles, and I think they have gotten a bad rap because users have under bought and not taken enough care in set up. I have been using subs in 2-channel systems with a lot of personal satisfaction for well over 10 years, and currently have three different Monitor/sub setups in operation. But. Good bass is expensive. And tricky. When you get it right it can be magical.

There are a lot of good subs for music listed above in this thread. I might add to the list the B&W PV1D for small to medium sized rooms.

some rules I apply:

-smaller main speakers require smaller sub drivers to accurately reproduce frequencies at the main speakers low frequency cut off point. 13" or 15" drivers are generally not going to be your best choice to reproduce higher bass frequencies with speed or timbre needed to blend with a great monitor. "Fullish" range main speakers that get down to the 20’s can be fortefied with some giant drivers to dig deep, but for music, speed is still more desirable than sheer volume of air moved.

-I like to match driver and cabinet materials between the main speaker and sub if possible to try to get similar voicing of sub and speaker, although I am sure good results can be obtained with mixed driver characteristics as demonstrated by many recognized high fidelity multi-driver speaker designs.

-I generally spend more on my subs than on both monitors I match them with combined - again, recognizing good bass is expensive and cannot be skimped on or treated as an after thought.

-I prefer subs for 2-channel that can handle high level signal as it imparts some character of the main power amp in the bass signal. I have in the past and am currently running one of my systems with line level rca from preamp to sub, but generally prefer high level in for 2-channel.

-I am a big fan of tuning sub levels, phase and crossover with frequency test disks, sound meter and ear. Auto Eq can be great for 5.1, but I have not heard a 2-channel auto eq that is better than good manual tuning. Not saying this doesn’t exist, just I haven’t heard it yet.

-it’s the room, stupid. The further you delve into low frequencies the greater the opportunity for room caused mischief. Getting into the 20’s and below can cause room problems to arise you didn’t know you had in your blissful 35Hz world. Care in placement, multiple subs, and room treatments can all play dividends here.

-oh, and be prepared for some surprises from what you thought was a well-matched cartridge and arm in your analog front end once your system is capable of reproducing 12Hz or lower signals.

Long Live the Subwoofer.

I too rejected adding a subwoofer to my system until my dealer introduced me to a JL Fathom 110. One of the best improvements I could have made. I don't actually hear the JL while listening. It just blends into the system. It's plugged directly into my Cary preamp, calibrated and fine tuned. 

If dragon-vibe needs further advice or assistance on whether forums are an appropriate place for a sales pitch, let me know.

I would highly recommend the Studio Subs by Quested, if you need further advise or assistance on purchase let me know. Built for absolute accuracy.

TY- nyame.

RELs are unique in that they can take the high-level signal from an amplifier to better assimilate with the signal to the mains as you say wolf.

I am using my two REL Stadium IIIs in "out-of-phase" mode to cancel some undesirable standing bass waves in my room. Faster and more tuneful bass than without. They still pressurize the room and give the soundstage extra magic.     

RELs take the signal from the amp and allow you to leave the mains alone, or you can unplug the mains and listen to the sub by itself which doesn't sound very good at all. You can also leave the amp off and hear nothing from either the mains or the sub, or you can turn the whole damn thing way up, pack up the car, and drive to Mexico.

jafant +1

" Today I was just testing a recovered old active Gallo sub and it made some just okay speakers sing."

Sometimes, when you listen to a system that you're not used to, you can have an initial impression (good or bad), that may not hold up over time. Its always a good idea to confirm results like you got with some long term listening. I know that you didn't hear the sub in your system, but the same rules apply.

As some of the others have stated, your best bet would be a pair of Vandersteen subs. The only caution I would give is that subs usually work best with full range speakers. Your speakers are fairly small, so you can't expect the sub to handle frequencies that your main speakers should be covering. (That goes for any sub, not just Vandersteen.). I do have a pair myself I use with Model 3's.

" If adding a sub to a 2-ch audiophile system - i.e., not a home theater receiver withy built-in gizmos - don't you need an external crossover, to prevent your main speakers from getting the bass signal?"

It depends. In many cases you don't need, or want to remove the bass from the signal with an xover. You adjust the sub so that it fills in where your main speakers naturally roll off. 

Another option is to adjust bass frequencies with software if you have a computer audio system.

If adding a sub to a 2-ch audiophile system - i.e., not a home theater receiver withy built-in gizmos - don't you need an external crossover, to prevent your main speakers from getting the bass signal? 

I bought 2 used RELs from the same era for 200 bucks each, both in excellent condition. The first was maybe 4 years or so ago and it's a Q150e front firing 10, and the second I found last year and it's Q108EII. My system was absolutely energized by the first and made even better by the second. Musical subs simply require that you move 'em around until YOU like the sound, and pay attention to the crossover points and levels on the subs (I find using a test CD to determine the ACTUAL low frequency limits of my mains is useful, and set the subs to take over around the point the mains stop delivering useful bass). I personally don't care about room EQ gizmos as you wind up surrendering EQ choices to the people who design these digital nannies, and I'm a seriously experienced live sound engineer who's ego won't allow such intrusions. Plus my largish listening room has tall, sloped ceilings and furniture. I turn the subs up and down if needed, and seriously enjoy the living bejeezus out of them every day.

+1 JL is good. Be wary of anything else - the vast majority of subwoofers are not suitable for music at all. It is all entirely about the quality of the woofer in the sub (JL make excellent woofers with long linear excursions) and EQ is just icing on the cake. Most subwoofers are just a bunch of distortion and that is most of what you hear - distortion. A good sub is actually barely noticeable with music but can suddenly be impactful. 

B&W DB1. You'll never listen without one after trying it out; and I mean in an excellent high end two channel system. Has auto room eq and is tight. Exudes quality as well. FWIW

I own a pair of the Vandy 2Wq subs and could not agree more with the article posted above. Easy to place and integrate, they provide deep, clean, powerful bass, and they don’t reveal themselves as a source. The battery-biased crossovers improve transparancy, and your mains must extend down to 40Hz. I will never let go of these subs.

Doug-

look no further than a REL subwoofer, especially, the older models.

the following article has been posted before and is rehashed again below - one of the finer reads in the subwoofer selection tree .... best article I've seen discussing this....

August 3, 2008

http://ultrafi.com/why-everybody-needs-a-good-subwoofer/

"…And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find

Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers.

Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems.

The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck.

We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land.

You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money.

Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good.

I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse.

Why? Because of their crossovers.

A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer.

The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass.

They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls.

And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.

The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets.

Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal.

So how does Vandersteen do it?

Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more!

No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable.

So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass.

A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it.

But there is a problem here as well.

Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers.

The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension.

Fortunately, Vandersteen has the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT!

After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music.

Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts.

This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs.

So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close.

You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers.

Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen.

It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks.

And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments.

Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins.

Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever.

The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room.

So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations...."

jmho
Room acoustics! Gik
Jl fathoms (because i just like them) 
 I use 2  Sunfires hrs  (which i like for the money )
Rythmic,Hsu etc ...
I have always heard great things about vandy subs  I can't comment.

      But I can say when I had one sub,(I know erik lol) ,it was challenging to get to disapear .When i added a second it became much easier.That being said the gik treatments I added made a serious change in my overall sound.
Highly reccomend ..
best of luck ...

The Vandy 2w(q)'s have always been highly regarded. I own the 2w's myself. Though I think the reason they integrate so well is by using the m5-hp crossover.
As Cedargrove recommended, the JL are pretty good, but expensive in my opinion.
I also use Hsu subs for my office system and like them. Perhaps not as good as the Vandy's, but quite respectable for the price. 

Room acoustics are key always. With subs the first thing to get a handle on is interaction with lively floors that often muddies bass and obscures detail. Auralex subdude platforms or something similar does the trick nicely when needed.

I strongly suggest you investigate Vandersteen 2WQ powered sub. It is unique in the way it blends with your speakers. I find it perfect with my B&W 684's Can't tell where one drops off and the other begins, and you can feel the vibrations down to 20HZ. Really remarkable. (See remarks above).

How low do your monitors go?  IMHO, matching a sub works best if your mains can get down to 50hz or lower.

That said, a few recent impressions:

1. The JL Fathom with 10"driver--tight and fast; really quite good with music.  Didn't call attention to itself.  I was surprised because I didn't associate JL with much more than thumping car subwoofers.
2. Vandersteen 2WQ--Even faster and tighter than the JL, but doesn't have the same slam/output capabilities.  The connection is complicated (requires an xover placed between your preamp and amp).  You probably need two if you want to keep up with the output of the JL.  
3. SVS Ultra sealed with 13" driver--Heard this at Magolia (Best Buy) of all places, paired with Sonus Faber Olympica monitors.  This one sounded very thick to me, very "subwoofery."  Given that it was Best Buy, who's to say it was set up well, though.

Hi Doug,

I believe that 90% of the sound quality of a sub comes from the room acoustics, integration and auto-EQ features (if any).

Before going with a sub, make sure your room acoustics are properly dealt with and add bass traps if needed. This will make your room very speaker and sub friendly. Ask GIK Acoustics for the best advice and highest value components. ASC of course is well thought of but uber pricey. If you go that route better to go with an integrator than purchase directly.

After this, if you do not have an integrator you trust, I would consider JL audio subs at the top of my list. Not because of monster drivers or amps but because I really like their auto-EQ features. Not all auto-eq is the same, and they are not all trying to reach the same target curves. There may also be other subs with great sounding EQ features, but get advice on how well that works before buying.

Personally being short of cash and experienced with crossovers and sub integration I prefer to roll my own with Hsu and miniDSP. 

If I had to buy and did not want to spend a week understanding bass room modes and EQ settings I’d go with JL.

There are other approaches of course, such as getting two subs, getting four subs ad infinitum. :) This is just where I would start.

Best,


Erik