Nottingham Spacedeck vs Rega Planar 8 vs Technics SL1200G

I just bought the Rega P8 / Apheta 2 myself and am unpacking it tonight. I voted with my wallet so you know what one I think you should choose :) 

Fsmithjack did u get the new version of the RP 8?

In your opinion, what mat would you use on the Technics SL1200G?

The one we use is made by Oracle.

A good mat is the same hardness as the vinyl of the LP.

Some use copper mats with their turntables, not Nottinghams. Ralph, you should not pretend to be undisputed expert, some of what you say in incorrect or debatable. 
And I will not argue with those who don't understand the concept of table/arm match and besides that are obviously asking for particular kind of attention.

inna

I don't understand your Issue, Ralph was asked his opinion and he gave it.  The question was not about Nottingham's, it was about a Technics and it was about a mat, not arm/table match. 

That’s right, those I mentioned used copper mat with top level Technics MK III in systems that exceed just about anything.
Mat doesn’t have to be the same hardness as vinyl.

If the mat should be as the LP why not just put an LP undern LP ?
Some people actually doing it

I use gunmetal Micro Seiki CU-180, CU-500, and SAEC SS-300 alloy mat.  
I have a comparison chart made by Micro Seiki and SAEC comes very close to Micro Mats, not to mention that SAEC is the lightest and almost half the price of Micro CU-180. In my opinion the SAEC is a must have for everyone, great mat even for belt drive turntables!

Micro CU-500 is superb for turntables with very high torque like Technics SP-10 mkIII or mkII. The only problem is that CU-500 is impossible to find.

Micro CU-180 is great for most of the DD turntables, love it on my Luxman PD-444

I’m not putting a $700.00 Mat on a 4K turntable!  I already put in an inquiry to an Oracle dealer on their mat which is in the $200.00 range. I am willing to bet that both of those mats will not be a night and day difference from the stock mat.  My Cartridge was only 600.00!  At 200.00 I am willing to take a chance, at 700.00, forget about it.    My platter already has the brass on it and I question what a  expensive metal mat may do to the sound.  

@stereo5 If you are open to global vendors, here's a link to a guy in Vietnam(Tran Van Tan - TVT Analog Shop) who makes very high quality machined parts for many high end turntables. He does everything from copper and ss mats to arm pods etc. His work is often for vintage Japanese tables (e.g. Micro Seiki), but he has done an incredible variety, all to custom order at VERY reasonable prices. 
When I had a Technics SP10mkII he made a stainless steel mat at very high mass that was exactly to my needs for $200. I decided to order after hearing two of his mats that a friend, @dgarretson, owns. We compared these to 6 or 7 mats including all the usual suspects recommended here regularly. Very happy with Tran's work. 

https://vnav.vn/threads/tvt-analog-shop-chan-chong-rung-da-nang-san-pham-moi.30728/page-13

Cheers,
Spencer

Read of lots of people using 10 inch vinyl as a mat, it's not uncommon although I have never tried it yet.

@fsmithjack

I know that you are a big Bricasti M1 fan.

How does your P8/Apheta compare to your Bricasti?

My Rega RP6 was almost bested by my DAC (AMR DP-777). So decided to move on from Rega and wanna try NA this time.

essrand 

Yes hello again - I am huge Bricasti fan. Thanks

I just set the table up the other night and it was super easy to set up which was great. 

I don't have my phonostage yet so its for now it is just a display :) 

I bought it last week from the nicest person I have ever done a deal with.

The phonostage I bought takes 2 IEC power cables so I bought the phonostage and 2 ac cables and a pair of interconnects from him for an awesome deal. 

Sutherland Engineering Duo Phonostage
(2) Audience Au24se Power Cables
Audioquest Fire RCA Interconnects. 

I will update you when it lands. I so hope I like this analogue set up enough that I will want to listen to it. I know what you mean with today's really good digital can be tough vs just pretty good analogue.  

Should be all set up later this week or earlier next week. He was not only the nicest guy I ever did a deal with but his prices were better also. Here is his info if anyone wants any gear.
http://www.sonarecoeli.com/

He hooked me up. 

audiotroy

Yes I bought the all new Rega Planer 8 / Apheta 2 combo. Thanks 

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/rega-planar-8apheta-2

Many Nottingham Spacedeck owners use Boston Audio Mat -1 graphite record mat. Including me. The company is out of business, I think, but you might be able to find it here or on usaudiomart or ebay, I saw it once. 

@stereo5

My Cartridge was only 600.00! At 200.00 I am willing to take a chance, at 700.00, forget about it.

SAEC SS-300 is about $350-450 (depends on cosmetic condition)

inna

Does Boston mat create any static?  

Thanks
Jeff

@chakster...……….

I truly appreciate the info you have given me, but as my Technics sounds fine (to me) as is, 300-450 is still way too much for a record mat.  I would think that money would be better used to get a better cartridge.  I use a ZU modified DL103 which was around 550.00 when I purchased new.  I am willing to spend up to 200 on a record mat and am waiting to hear from the dealer that sold me the Technics as he also sells Oracle.  Thank you again for the information, you are one of the most knowledgeable people regarding turntables I have ever come across.  The information you have freely given is invaluable.

My next purchase will probably be a Dynavector 20X2L later on this year.  As for the record mat, if I can purchase the Oracle in the 200.00 range, I will probably go for it.  Do you know how it compares to the Origin mat?

Jeff, the amount of static I get varies, mostly with weather - more in winter when the air is dry, but it is never much. I am not sure whether it is mat or inner record sleeve or me handling records that contributes most. But one thing is certain - it is not at all a problem in my system with rare exceptions.
I also got Boston Audio big graphite tune blocks under 3" maple platform the table sits on. And the platform is on the floor near left speaker.

I also use the Boston audio mat on my 1200G   It likes to be taped down with scotch tape to the brass platter. 

I didn't tape it, it just sits there without the hole touching the spindle.

Looks like they are still available

http://www.sakurasystems.com/home.html

I have a space 294 table and arm combo. I purchased used from Larry at Hollywood Sound. I added the Boston Audio May and the Phoenix falcon motor controller. Definite improvement with the mat, slight improvement with the Phoenix but I don’t think my power was that bad to begin with. 

Its a great table. The arm takes some getting used to and if it’s been a while I have to relearn how to make adjustments. It’s really not that hard though. 

The sound is very musical, organic. As of now I’m using a low compliance Clearaudio Concept MC v1 cart held over from my previous concept turntable. I think this table could easily handle a much better cart and I’m looking to upgrade. Larry recommended the kiseki purple heart or blue NS at the time I purchased the table. 

Good luck on your search. 

Yeah, Larry only likes low output MCs, at least he says so. In any case, if you put $3000 cartridge you better have $5000 -$6000 phono stage. He is nice to talk to otherwise. 

I think he was surprised the Concept Mc cart sounded as good as it did on the 294. I just bought a pre owned Soundsmith zephyr mimc Star here on agon. I’m eager to hear what it can do on this table. I don’t doubt that the 294 will give me an honest picture of the differences between the carts. 

Careful Joe, you will have all the buying used cart haters pouring vitriol on your head saying things like that!

Lol.

Seriously I was considering trying a Soundsmith MI cart out on my Spacedeck so please let me know how it goes!

"I didn't tape it, it just sits there without the hole touching the spindle."

Thanks Inna!  I will try that.

@stereo5

I truly appreciate the info you have given me, but as my Technics sounds fine (to me) as is, 300-450 is still way too much for a record mat.

In my opinion SAES is the most reasonably priced mat on a used market today. This is not just a flat piece of something (like many other mats), this is a very special design and material. Look at the top surface and at the flipside. This mat was designed for all size of records, not just for 12’ inch, but also for 7’inch. I think it’s pretty smart design compared to many other mats on the market, most of them are just flat like a pancake. The material is a very special aircraft alloy, i think we can trust SAEC engineers, those guys tried to make exceptional mat and i think they did it right. This mat is not fragile as the BA Graphite mat for example.

Also i can’t remember any static issues between the SAEC mat and the record. Saec SS-300 alloy mat (870g), as you can find online, eliminates the distortion-producing resonance in the 200-400Hz range, which is common to most all conventional rubber mats. This results in a 10~20dB net reduction in overall resonance, to further reduce distortion at its source. Some cartridges, especially the LOMC, are sensivite to the rotor under the platter, felt mats can’t solve the problem. It will help you to block EMI effect (electromagnetic interference). So i think you know what you’re paying for when it comes to SAEC mat.

Technicst rubber mat must be replaced and many Technics owners did that first.

I would think that money would be better used to get a better cartridge. I use a ZU modified DL103 which was around 550.00 when I purchased new.

That’s right, i’m sure it’s too much for any cartridge with a conical tip! For under $400 you can have NOS Pickering XSV-3000 MM with original Stereohedron nude diamond. It’s one of those killer MM for amazing price (pay less to get more). Highly recomended not only because i have a spare in NOS condition, but mainly because i am a Stanton fan, Pickering was a parent company or Stanton Magnetics Inc.

I am willing to spend up to 200 on a record mat and am waiting to hear from the dealer that sold me the Technics as he also sells Oracle. Thank you again for the information, you are one of the most knowledgeable people regarding turntables I have ever come across. The information you have freely given is invaluable.

You gave me too much credits. Thanks. Do not always listen to the dealer who is limited to a brand new audio stuff, in this case you’re ignoring some amazing products from the past, when something survived after 30-40 years and still highly regarded it must be exceptionally good like those SAEC and Micro Seiki mats for example.

My next purchase will probably be a Dynavector 20X2L later on this year. As for the record mat, if I can purchase the Oracle in the 200.00 range, I will probably go for it. Do you know how it compares to the Origin mat?

Can’t comment on those mats, but look for the material, shape and everything which makes them cheaper compared to Made In Japan SAEC for example. There is a reason why those mats are cheaper.

The best Dynavector cartridge i’ve tried on Technics turntable with stock Technics tonearm was DV-23RS MR (Ruby/MicroReach). I’ve bought it in NOS condition on ebay for about $500 and this is a good example why Denon DL-103 variations must be avoided. There are better carts with better cantilevers/diamonds even cheaper in NOS condition. Dynavector is high compliance MC which is perfect for Technics tonearm (much better match than Denon 103 low compliance).

Uber, 

i was hesitent myself but this agon member has done a lot of deals on agon and his reviews are 100% positive. Figured it was worth a shot. I’ll be putting my Concept Mc cart up at a very nice price if all goes well. 

Mat doesn’t have to be the same hardness as vinyl.

Many people don't understand that the mat can have a big effect on the sound of the turntable.
The function of the mat is two-fold: first to damp the LP, and second to damp the platter. Both are important.
To damp the LP, this means that vibration from the LP must be absorbed and converted to heat. To do this without reflecting any of the vibration back to the LP, it must be the same durometer reading as the LP (the same hardness).

To this end you might use a stack of LPs but they aren't the right shape. Most LPs have a lip on the edge and a raised label. That is where a proper platter design pays off.

If the LP is properly damped you won't hear much sound coming from the LP surface (with the volume turned down) although this is not a 100% best way to know. To do that, a 20Hz-20Khz sweep tone does the job- it should play back nice and flat but distortion should be lower as well, since the LP talking back to the stylus will be creating distortion.

@atmasphere 

Interesting test, Ralph. Just did it with two test LP's.

The first was a 20-20K sweep on a highly dished test LP. The sound was audible with no amplification from the seating position.

But, with the Analogue Productions test LP, in new condition, bands 6 and 7 generated almost no audible sound, peaking at about 400Hz (Side 1, band 6 is 1K to 20K sweep, band 7 is 1K to 20). This would appear to indicate a good coupling between the record and platter.

But the upper platter is isomolded graphite (GM-10), with a listed hardness of 65psi. This would seem to be notably harder than the vinyl used in LP's - but my interpretation of the data I could find, may be wrong.

What are your views?

I take it you were not able to do distortion tests also?
The 400Hz peak seems to suggest that the platter pad is reflecting energy around that frequency. But on one test I would be hesitant to call it good- can you test other platter pads?

People understand. Record mat is also a tuning mat, which means that there is no one universal solution for any set-up and preference. As for the physics of platter/mat/record/cartridge interaction, it is so complex that even highly qualified mechanical engineers might struggle. And then there are ears and brains that are the most qualified of all.

I’ve heard the nag 500 on a Clearaudio Concept and if memory serves it was very nice. 

Oops, wrong thread 

Good question, Ralph. I suspect that my spectrum analyzer is too slow - but I’m sure that it’s too heavy! That will have to wait until I have help to move it.

However, since the AP LP was an order of magnitude quieter than the other LP at all frequencies, and only somewhat more audible at 400Hz than at other frequencies, does this not suggest that the coupling is pretty good? Agreed that 400Hz seems less good... The graphite platter has a natural resonance of 2KHz, the cast iron subplatter of 500Hz.

Settled on this configuration after other platter pads sounded muddy by comparison.

do you guys ever just sit back and enjoy the music?:)
I really appreciate the experience that you all bring to the table, but sometimes it seems like your just looking at the numbers and not appreciating the music.

Relax...........

I have owned a spacedeck with spacearm for years and love it.  Another stellar cartridge to consider is the Kiseki line.  I upgraded from the blue to the purple heart and have been thrilled with it.  I also recently upgraded to the heavy platter which also improved my sound.  I purchased all my turntable gear from Larry at Hollywood Sound.  He is a true turntable guru and is clearly one of the leading authorities on Nottingham tables.  He would be a great resource to speak with and he is very enthusiastic about anything analog.  Larry uses the Kiseki purple heart on his rig and won't change to anything else, which tells me a lot.  I can highly recommend this combo

@orthomead. 
Do you use the PurpleHeart on the standard Spacearm?
I was thinking my next move might be to upgrade the arm on my Spacedeck rather than a more expensive cart but if it is working well on a 3.5k cart...….

@uberwalz.Yes.  I started with the blue, but learned the hard way what happens when I don't wear my glasses during needle drop and it falls off the side of the lp.  Ouch! So I needed a replacement and moved up to the purple heart at Larry's suggestion.  The tonearm upgrade conversation didn't occur.  Definitely a huge improvement in sound.  Interestingly, a close friend with the same Nottingham/Kiseki blue setup did exactly the same thing I did a month later.  He too upgraded to the purple heart and is ecstatic over the sonic improvement.  The improvement is notable waaay before full break in occurs.  I would suggest calling Larry at Hollywood Sound because he can tell you if you are further ahead with a tonearm or cartridge upgrade.  Either way please let us know what you did and your experience.

No desire to hijack this thread but just have standard Spacedeck and Spacearm combo with a Walker motor controller. Using ZYX RS50mk2 cart right now and pretty happy.
But always interested in New ideas and ways to better the SQ the first time around.

And I hear you on needle drop, that headshell with no finger loop is annoying! Now I use glasses AND small led flexlight that is mounted on top shelf just for that purpose!

I asked Larry about changing tonearms and tweaking such as platter may and he was firmly against both, if I correctly recall.  He believes in synergy. 

That being said, the Boston audio May was an improvement. 

I dont see the The kiseki on the hwdsound website anymore either. Wonder what he’d recommend as an alternative? 

Why would anyone buy a TT with rubber band when they can have a direct drive? 

different strokes etc etc 

Why would anyone buy a TT with rubber band when they can have a direct drive?

I cover both bases but there are way too many belt drives out there to be quite so disparaging about them.

I listened to a friends new Rega P8 with Aria cartridge for some time couple of weeks ago .One hell of a nice TT , excellent base and the clarity Rega is noted for plus a slight bit of warmth ,with quartz power supply sounded flawless to me .

I’d suggest you read the Analog Planet review, download the samples for yourself.
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-sl-1200g-versus-continuum-caliburn-and-sat-arm

To summarise- Fremer compared the Technics 1200G with the Continuum Calliburn and made 24/96 rips to compare. The catch was he didn’t reveal which TT was which file.

One was better than the other most people agreed- including this blogger who then created this video, explaining why the CC is better than the Technics. He overlaid the waveforms from the downloads and then explained all the benefits of the CC’s isolation, arm design, motor etc. 
https://youtu.be/ZEGj6iim57w

However, he like most listeners was fooled. I smelled a rat when he says towards the end that the CC is more speed accurate than the 1200g ( I don’t think so - belt drive vs the most accurate DD control system based on a Blu-Ray drive and Quartz locked- I thought - he’s got them the wrong way around). Later Fremer announces which file was which! The blogger had confused them - how embarrassing!

The Technics 1200g had beaten the Continuum Calliburn!

Did I mention that the CC costs $180,000?

I bought the Technics - and a used Supercar 😁

The Technics is the biggest bargain in audio. It’s one of the cheapest components in my system, my phone stage cost much more.

Technics have, with their huge economies of scale, engineering expertise and large research budget created a giant killer.  

If Linn made the 1200g it would cost at least £75k their Keel upgrade, a single piece of milled Aluminium cost as much as a 1200g - it’s just ridiculous.

The real question is 1200g or Sp10? I can’t justify the upgrade.

I owned Regas and Linn’s from 1981 till two years ago. Now I have a 1200g. I heard an RP8 recently - no match I’m afraid.

Incidently, some recordings on vinyl - especially older ones and particularly 45rpm 12” are a match or better than my Chord Dave even playing high res files. An under £1k DAC will not be comparable.

My local record shop bought a Technics SL 1100 new in the 1970’s the owner retired recently and has passed the shop to another chap. I was talking to him before Christmas, he said that the 1100 had been used 5 days a week since they bought it, and only last month needed a service. Who needs a local dealer?

On Ralph's recommendation, in whose ears I trust, I ordered the Oracle record mat today from Adirondack Audio.  As soon as they receive it from Oracle, they will ship to me.  Should take 10 business days or so.  I will report back on my findings after I have had time to play with it.

Nagoka makes Goldring so nice to see good ears recommending both .

@electo69 I never did find out which was which, but there was a difference. I'll check out the links again you've put up tonight, thanks. The fact that the Technics got close to the Caliburn is remarkable enough.

@schubert , my experiences with Nagoaka cartridges were all good. I loved that full sound, even the fairly basic MP11 outperformed all the Linn moving magnets.

I also wonder if the old drop of superglue trick on the removable stylus assembly still works? It seemed to help back in those crazy days when everything had to be bolted down with a torque wrench up to (and often beyond!) breaking point.

OMG! It's another brand new model from Technics coming later this year. Premium Class Direct Drive Turntable SL1500c for my audiophile homies.

Look at this beauty:
https://www.technics.com/us/news/20190107-sl-1500c/