Nottingham Spacedeck vs Rega Planar 8 vs Technics SL1200G

Atmasphere, you do not fasten the platter to the motor assembly on the 1200G?

No- IMO/IME the platter pad is more important and you can't get to the screws if its in place.

Atmasphere, you do not fasten the platter to the motor assembly on the 1200G?

So, I received the Oracle mat and the Project record weight for my Technics SL1200G. I found that the whole presentation is enhanced with the bass being much more solid. My question to Ralph or others, should I remove the sticky backing on the underside of mat and stick to my platter or leave the covering on? I'm afraid if I stick the mat down, I won't be able to easily remove it if I need to remove the platter. What do you guys and girls think?

Here is my recommendation: Do not install the three screws that are used to fix the platter to the motor spindle. Remove the sticky back and apply the pad to the platter. The platter is thus still removable and already has a snug fit on the motor spindle so no worries. But you will find that the sound improves- the coupling of the platter to the pad is important. This will allow the platter pad to work better with the damping system that already exists on the platter.

Yes, you'll have to destroy the platter pad to remove it. But I think you will find that the resulting turntable is so good that it takes on challengers much more expensive; IOW it will be years or never that you will have any need to remove the pad.

Thanks.  I thought the same thing. I doubt the mat will slip as it is quite a tight fit over the spindle.  I am going to leave it as is as it sounds so good.  That HRS weight must have been Uber expensive. 

stereo5,

I have a SL1200G that Ralph modded for me with a Triplanar tonearm. I too use the Oracle Hard Acrylic mat that Ralph suggested. To answer your question; I have used the Oracle mat without removing the sticky back. My mat is not, stuck down to the brass platter. IMO, sticking the Oracle Mat to the brass platter is not necessary.

Ralph,might disagree with me, just to get every last bit of SQ that this might allow. I do not think it necessary.

I tried, the stock rubber mat, a new felt mat from my LP12, An old cork mat, an X- treme carbon fiber mat and some type of firm gel mat The Oracle mat provides great sonics through the entire spectrum. Highs are clear and extended without being harsh, Mids are right on. Bass with my Lyra is tight, textured and more solid.

I placed a small piece of blue tape on the edge of the mat and on the brass platter and marked them to detect any movement / slippage. Nothing has moved since I placed the mat in June 2017.

I also tried the brass record weight from my Kuzma TT, A SOTA reflex clamp, a Stillpoints LP1 record weight and finally settled on a 315 gr HRS record weight.
 
The Oracle mat and HRS record weight work well for me. 

If you decide to stick the Oracle mat to the brass platter; you will need to drill 3 holes in it to access the 3 bolts holding the brass platter if you need to, in the future. It would be hard to remove the Oracle Mat without damage if you stick it to the brass platter.





                                              

I use a funk firm mat it came with some sticky clear double sided tape in little circles at 4 spots that do not hold the mat down real tight I can remove it easily, I think they are there to keep it from slipping. Does the Oracle have a complete coverage? If it does I would be worried about using it, maybe you could do small pieces of double sided tape

So, I received the Oracle mat and the Project record weight for my Technics SL1200G.  I found that the whole presentation is enhanced with the bass being much more solid.  My question to Ralph or others, should I remove the sticky backing on the underside of mat and stick to my platter or leave the covering on?  I'm afraid if I stick the mat down, I won't be able to easily remove it if I need to remove the platter.  What do you guys and girls think?

If anybody is moved by this thread to buy RP8, today I got an email from one of the big music direct retailers offering about a third off the price of them. Cheers,
Spencer 

essrand:

Glad I could offer something to the conversation that you found useful. I did just listen to a SP10R in an Artisan Fidelity plinth with a Schroeder CB1-L arm :) that was quite nice. The bearing only had about 300 hours on it and I’ve found that motor structure to require 700 hours for full run-in. I may start a thread with my impressions but don’t want to hi-jack this one. 

I think the 1200G is just now starting to get the respect it deserves. It really is a table that one can run a +$5k cartridge on and with the commensurate phono stage build a startling good analog rig around. What I’m saying is that to get more table, you are going to have to spend quite a bit more and the usual suspects that people like to mention in the same breath as the Technics AINT gonna cut it!

Thanks Audiofun.

It is really valuable input especially from a AMR DP-777 owner who understands where I am coming from.

Your post more than anything is now making me consider the Technics (even though I have to buy it out of the country, no Technics dealers here).

Joegator81:

No sweat.

Audiofun, 

thanks for the insight. I think the more opinions the better. Much appreciated. 

Joe 

Joegator81:

I don’t really have anything against the Kiseki, I just found it a little to soft and warm for my taste. I can definitely see how this cartridge can work in some systems. I think it works well with my buddies rig because his table, the Grand Prix Monaco, in my opinion can be a bit lean sounding and harmonically reticent, he agrees with my assessment. The Kiseki brings a bit more decay to instruments on his table. It is a more refined sound than a stock Denon 103 but whereas I find a 103/103r cartridge to get the feet moving, the Kiseki is a bit more languid. I much prefer my modified 103r.

Of course this is a case (as is all of these opinions) of courses for horses.

audiofun, 

what didnt you like about the purple heart? 

Essrand:

I own the AMR DP 777se and owned a SL1200 GAE for two wonderful years. I understand your point, a DP 777/ DP 777 se can make lesser analog rigs a waste of time. I had them both maxed out and ran the following cartridges on the GAE, London Ref, Audio Technica ART 1000, Denon 103r, Ana Mighty Sound modified Denon 103r (103.3) and a Kiseki Purple Heart (a friend loaned me the Kiseki, not a fan of this one). I own or owned and used the Luxman EQ 500, SPL Phonos and iPhono 2 with the GAE. 

It is a superior sounding table once the bearing is fully run-in. I would say that my AMR with an optimized music server (HQPlayer), linear power supply and more optimization’s than I care to mention and the GAE were on par with each other. They both made music and often times it would come down to the mastering job on a particular record. For instance, Sade seems to have been mastered to vinyl far better than CD, while the 45 of “Jacintha Is Her Name” seems to have been treated very very well in the vinyl realm as well as the CD (of course the 15ips tape is better than both).

I only sold my GAE because I wanted to play with an idler and I do not need three tables. I thought it would be cool to have the idler next to my SP10 MK3. Had a Commonwealth 12D/3 which is a great table, but I chose a Garrard 401.

My buddies have some expensive tables and I’ve not heard any of their tables flat out beat the GAE. I thought the Dohmann Helix ($40k) and the GAE sounded very similar. In fact you can find earlier posts I’ve made where I stated that the Dohmann was the one belt table I’ve heard that I really liked and could happily own.

You cant lose with a SL 1200 G.

If there is one thing that I personally believe is a must change to bring out the best of the Technics it is the deletion of that horrid platter-mat they have been stuffing in the box with their tables since the 70’s. That mat was horrid with my SP10 MK3 and it was horrid with my GAE. I ended up using a delrin (relatively sure it’s delrin) mat by Artisan Fidelity. The stock mat sounds muddy and sucks the life out of the music, it’s terrible. I did try one of my friends custom copper mats (he owns a GAE) that he is developing specifically for the G/GAE and it did indeed sound excellent. I tried my Artisan Fidelity custom copper mat that was made for my SP 10 MK3 on the GAE, did NOT like that at all. I think it was too heavy, again, that mat was a one-off for my MK3.

Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy. It’s a lot of fun. I listen to a great deal of music and really enjoy my analog and digital.

Uber, 

my my dad has a friend who has a notts, either space with heavy kit or hyperspace fitted with a purple heart. The rest of the system is close to what hwd has set up in their listening room. I really need to go listen and report back. I will give updates as I learn more about the zephyrs sound as well. 

Good to hear Joe.

Debating my next cart and so far it's down to a Soundsmith or Kiseki for the Nottingham.

FYI, just put the pre owned Soundsmith zephyr Star on my notts 294 and it sounds fantastic through 3 tracks of Hugh masakalas hope. 

Technics seem to want the whole of the turntable market. Fair enough, but it was the stalwarts such as Pro-ject that kept the faith during the darkest days of vinyl. 

This really is quickly becoming a golden age of vinyl playback. Seriously, who saw this coming 20 years ago?

However, since the AP LP was an order of magnitude quieter than the other LP at all frequencies, and only somewhat more audible at 400Hz than at other frequencies, does this not suggest that the coupling is pretty good? Agreed that 400Hz seems less good... The graphite platter has a natural resonance of 2KHz, the cast iron subplatter of 500Hz.

Settled on this configuration after other platter pads sounded muddy by comparison.

Sounds like the platter pad is robbing energy from the platter and vice versa. That is a simple way to kill resonance. Empire used to do something like that with their two-piece platters in their 598 and 698 years ago.

do you guys ever just sit back and enjoy the music?:)

Yup! And I enjoy it more when the system is really neutral (and so does my GF). That is why getting the platter pad right is important- you can't fix things downstream if the cartridge isn't able to do its job properly!

Look at this beauty:
https://www.technics.com/us/news/20190107-sl-1500c/

Sweet- may well be the next go-to entry level machine.

OMG! It's another brand new model from Technics coming later this year. Premium Class Direct Drive Turntable SL1500c for my audiophile homies.

Look at this beauty:
https://www.technics.com/us/news/20190107-sl-1500c/

@electo69 I never did find out which was which, but there was a difference. I'll check out the links again you've put up tonight, thanks. The fact that the Technics got close to the Caliburn is remarkable enough.

@schubert , my experiences with Nagoaka cartridges were all good. I loved that full sound, even the fairly basic MP11 outperformed all the Linn moving magnets.

I also wonder if the old drop of superglue trick on the removable stylus assembly still works? It seemed to help back in those crazy days when everything had to be bolted down with a torque wrench up to (and often beyond!) breaking point.

Nagoka makes Goldring so nice to see good ears recommending both .

On Ralph's recommendation, in whose ears I trust, I ordered the Oracle record mat today from Adirondack Audio.  As soon as they receive it from Oracle, they will ship to me.  Should take 10 business days or so.  I will report back on my findings after I have had time to play with it.

I’d suggest you read the Analog Planet review, download the samples for yourself.
https://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-sl-1200g-versus-continuum-caliburn-and-sat-arm

To summarise- Fremer compared the Technics 1200G with the Continuum Calliburn and made 24/96 rips to compare. The catch was he didn’t reveal which TT was which file.

One was better than the other most people agreed- including this blogger who then created this video, explaining why the CC is better than the Technics. He overlaid the waveforms from the downloads and then explained all the benefits of the CC’s isolation, arm design, motor etc. 
https://youtu.be/ZEGj6iim57w

However, he like most listeners was fooled. I smelled a rat when he says towards the end that the CC is more speed accurate than the 1200g ( I don’t think so - belt drive vs the most accurate DD control system based on a Blu-Ray drive and Quartz locked- I thought - he’s got them the wrong way around). Later Fremer announces which file was which! The blogger had confused them - how embarrassing!

The Technics 1200g had beaten the Continuum Calliburn!

Did I mention that the CC costs $180,000?

I bought the Technics - and a used Supercar 😁

The Technics is the biggest bargain in audio. It’s one of the cheapest components in my system, my phone stage cost much more.

Technics have, with their huge economies of scale, engineering expertise and large research budget created a giant killer.  

If Linn made the 1200g it would cost at least £75k their Keel upgrade, a single piece of milled Aluminium cost as much as a 1200g - it’s just ridiculous.

The real question is 1200g or Sp10? I can’t justify the upgrade.

I owned Regas and Linn’s from 1981 till two years ago. Now I have a 1200g. I heard an RP8 recently - no match I’m afraid.

Incidently, some recordings on vinyl - especially older ones and particularly 45rpm 12” are a match or better than my Chord Dave even playing high res files. An under £1k DAC will not be comparable.

My local record shop bought a Technics SL 1100 new in the 1970’s the owner retired recently and has passed the shop to another chap. I was talking to him before Christmas, he said that the 1100 had been used 5 days a week since they bought it, and only last month needed a service. Who needs a local dealer?

I listened to a friends new Rega P8 with Aria cartridge for some time couple of weeks ago .One hell of a nice TT , excellent base and the clarity Rega is noted for plus a slight bit of warmth ,with quartz power supply sounded flawless to me .

Why would anyone buy a TT with rubber band when they can have a direct drive?

I cover both bases but there are way too many belt drives out there to be quite so disparaging about them.

different strokes etc etc 

Why would anyone buy a TT with rubber band when they can have a direct drive? 

I asked Larry about changing tonearms and tweaking such as platter may and he was firmly against both, if I correctly recall.  He believes in synergy. 

That being said, the Boston audio May was an improvement. 

I dont see the The kiseki on the hwdsound website anymore either. Wonder what he’d recommend as an alternative? 

No desire to hijack this thread but just have standard Spacedeck and Spacearm combo with a Walker motor controller. Using ZYX RS50mk2 cart right now and pretty happy.
But always interested in New ideas and ways to better the SQ the first time around.

And I hear you on needle drop, that headshell with no finger loop is annoying! Now I use glasses AND small led flexlight that is mounted on top shelf just for that purpose!

@uberwalz.Yes.  I started with the blue, but learned the hard way what happens when I don't wear my glasses during needle drop and it falls off the side of the lp.  Ouch! So I needed a replacement and moved up to the purple heart at Larry's suggestion.  The tonearm upgrade conversation didn't occur.  Definitely a huge improvement in sound.  Interestingly, a close friend with the same Nottingham/Kiseki blue setup did exactly the same thing I did a month later.  He too upgraded to the purple heart and is ecstatic over the sonic improvement.  The improvement is notable waaay before full break in occurs.  I would suggest calling Larry at Hollywood Sound because he can tell you if you are further ahead with a tonearm or cartridge upgrade.  Either way please let us know what you did and your experience.

@orthomead. 
Do you use the PurpleHeart on the standard Spacearm?
I was thinking my next move might be to upgrade the arm on my Spacedeck rather than a more expensive cart but if it is working well on a 3.5k cart...….

I have owned a spacedeck with spacearm for years and love it.  Another stellar cartridge to consider is the Kiseki line.  I upgraded from the blue to the purple heart and have been thrilled with it.  I also recently upgraded to the heavy platter which also improved my sound.  I purchased all my turntable gear from Larry at Hollywood Sound.  He is a true turntable guru and is clearly one of the leading authorities on Nottingham tables.  He would be a great resource to speak with and he is very enthusiastic about anything analog.  Larry uses the Kiseki purple heart on his rig and won't change to anything else, which tells me a lot.  I can highly recommend this combo

do you guys ever just sit back and enjoy the music?:)
I really appreciate the experience that you all bring to the table, but sometimes it seems like your just looking at the numbers and not appreciating the music.

Relax...........

Good question, Ralph. I suspect that my spectrum analyzer is too slow - but I’m sure that it’s too heavy! That will have to wait until I have help to move it.

However, since the AP LP was an order of magnitude quieter than the other LP at all frequencies, and only somewhat more audible at 400Hz than at other frequencies, does this not suggest that the coupling is pretty good? Agreed that 400Hz seems less good... The graphite platter has a natural resonance of 2KHz, the cast iron subplatter of 500Hz.

Settled on this configuration after other platter pads sounded muddy by comparison.

Oops, wrong thread 

I’ve heard the nag 500 on a Clearaudio Concept and if memory serves it was very nice. 

People understand. Record mat is also a tuning mat, which means that there is no one universal solution for any set-up and preference. As for the physics of platter/mat/record/cartridge interaction, it is so complex that even highly qualified mechanical engineers might struggle. And then there are ears and brains that are the most qualified of all.

I take it you were not able to do distortion tests also?
The 400Hz peak seems to suggest that the platter pad is reflecting energy around that frequency. But on one test I would be hesitant to call it good- can you test other platter pads?

@atmasphere 

Interesting test, Ralph. Just did it with two test LP's.

The first was a 20-20K sweep on a highly dished test LP. The sound was audible with no amplification from the seating position.

But, with the Analogue Productions test LP, in new condition, bands 6 and 7 generated almost no audible sound, peaking at about 400Hz (Side 1, band 6 is 1K to 20K sweep, band 7 is 1K to 20). This would appear to indicate a good coupling between the record and platter.

But the upper platter is isomolded graphite (GM-10), with a listed hardness of 65psi. This would seem to be notably harder than the vinyl used in LP's - but my interpretation of the data I could find, may be wrong.

What are your views?

Mat doesn’t have to be the same hardness as vinyl.

Many people don't understand that the mat can have a big effect on the sound of the turntable.
The function of the mat is two-fold: first to damp the LP, and second to damp the platter. Both are important.
To damp the LP, this means that vibration from the LP must be absorbed and converted to heat. To do this without reflecting any of the vibration back to the LP, it must be the same durometer reading as the LP (the same hardness).

To this end you might use a stack of LPs but they aren't the right shape. Most LPs have a lip on the edge and a raised label. That is where a proper platter design pays off.

If the LP is properly damped you won't hear much sound coming from the LP surface (with the volume turned down) although this is not a 100% best way to know. To do that, a 20Hz-20Khz sweep tone does the job- it should play back nice and flat but distortion should be lower as well, since the LP talking back to the stylus will be creating distortion.

Uber, 

i was hesitent myself but this agon member has done a lot of deals on agon and his reviews are 100% positive. Figured it was worth a shot. I’ll be putting my Concept Mc cart up at a very nice price if all goes well. 

@stereo5

I truly appreciate the info you have given me, but as my Technics sounds fine (to me) as is, 300-450 is still way too much for a record mat.

In my opinion SAES is the most reasonably priced mat on a used market today. This is not just a flat piece of something (like many other mats), this is a very special design and material. Look at the top surface and at the flipside. This mat was designed for all size of records, not just for 12’ inch, but also for 7’inch. I think it’s pretty smart design compared to many other mats on the market, most of them are just flat like a pancake. The material is a very special aircraft alloy, i think we can trust SAEC engineers, those guys tried to make exceptional mat and i think they did it right. This mat is not fragile as the BA Graphite mat for example.

Also i can’t remember any static issues between the SAEC mat and the record. Saec SS-300 alloy mat (870g), as you can find online, eliminates the distortion-producing resonance in the 200-400Hz range, which is common to most all conventional rubber mats. This results in a 10~20dB net reduction in overall resonance, to further reduce distortion at its source. Some cartridges, especially the LOMC, are sensivite to the rotor under the platter, felt mats can’t solve the problem. It will help you to block EMI effect (electromagnetic interference). So i think you know what you’re paying for when it comes to SAEC mat.

Technicst rubber mat must be replaced and many Technics owners did that first.

I would think that money would be better used to get a better cartridge. I use a ZU modified DL103 which was around 550.00 when I purchased new.

That’s right, i’m sure it’s too much for any cartridge with a conical tip! For under $400 you can have NOS Pickering XSV-3000 MM with original Stereohedron nude diamond. It’s one of those killer MM for amazing price (pay less to get more). Highly recomended not only because i have a spare in NOS condition, but mainly because i am a Stanton fan, Pickering was a parent company or Stanton Magnetics Inc.

I am willing to spend up to 200 on a record mat and am waiting to hear from the dealer that sold me the Technics as he also sells Oracle. Thank you again for the information, you are one of the most knowledgeable people regarding turntables I have ever come across. The information you have freely given is invaluable.

You gave me too much credits. Thanks. Do not always listen to the dealer who is limited to a brand new audio stuff, in this case you’re ignoring some amazing products from the past, when something survived after 30-40 years and still highly regarded it must be exceptionally good like those SAEC and Micro Seiki mats for example.

My next purchase will probably be a Dynavector 20X2L later on this year. As for the record mat, if I can purchase the Oracle in the 200.00 range, I will probably go for it. Do you know how it compares to the Origin mat?

Can’t comment on those mats, but look for the material, shape and everything which makes them cheaper compared to Made In Japan SAEC for example. There is a reason why those mats are cheaper.

The best Dynavector cartridge i’ve tried on Technics turntable with stock Technics tonearm was DV-23RS MR (Ruby/MicroReach). I’ve bought it in NOS condition on ebay for about $500 and this is a good example why Denon DL-103 variations must be avoided. There are better carts with better cantilevers/diamonds even cheaper in NOS condition. Dynavector is high compliance MC which is perfect for Technics tonearm (much better match than Denon 103 low compliance).

"I didn't tape it, it just sits there without the hole touching the spindle."

Thanks Inna!  I will try that.

Careful Joe, you will have all the buying used cart haters pouring vitriol on your head saying things like that!

Lol.

Seriously I was considering trying a Soundsmith MI cart out on my Spacedeck so please let me know how it goes!

I think he was surprised the Concept Mc cart sounded as good as it did on the 294. I just bought a pre owned Soundsmith zephyr mimc Star here on agon. I’m eager to hear what it can do on this table. I don’t doubt that the 294 will give me an honest picture of the differences between the carts. 

Yeah, Larry only likes low output MCs, at least he says so. In any case, if you put $3000 cartridge you better have $5000 -$6000 phono stage. He is nice to talk to otherwise. 

I have a space 294 table and arm combo. I purchased used from Larry at Hollywood Sound. I added the Boston Audio May and the Phoenix falcon motor controller. Definite improvement with the mat, slight improvement with the Phoenix but I don’t think my power was that bad to begin with. 

Its a great table. The arm takes some getting used to and if it’s been a while I have to relearn how to make adjustments. It’s really not that hard though. 

The sound is very musical, organic. As of now I’m using a low compliance Clearaudio Concept MC v1 cart held over from my previous concept turntable. I think this table could easily handle a much better cart and I’m looking to upgrade. Larry recommended the kiseki purple heart or blue NS at the time I purchased the table. 

Good luck on your search. 

Looks like they are still available

http://www.sakurasystems.com/home.html