I wish secretaryguy would post this awesome system he must have. I’d like to see what a little “common sense” hath wrought…
Next best exponential DAC quality level?
I recently did a shoot out of three DACs using my Hint6 + routing each of the other DACs to analog input on the Hint6:
(1) Hint6: ESS Sabre32 -- Integrated
(2) SMSL M500: ES9038PRO D/A ~$400
(3) Khadas ToneBoard(v1): ESS ES9038Q2M - ~$99
I played the same song passages on Amazon Music and was able to cycle through each Hint6 input corresponding to each DAC.
The result? Very small difference in terms of rendering. Maybe a more open sound stage with better overall balance using the Hint6 DAC. The Khadas was more bass / midrange pronounced w/ a more narrow soundstage. However, I wouldn't suggest that any were head-and-shoulders "better" over the others. In fact, they were all pretty decent with only small nuances (certainly not worth the price differences.
I decided to keep the Khadas for my small headphone listening area.
But it got me thinking - how much would one have to spend to realize an exponential difference in quality? Is the Khadas that good, or is DAC technology differences more nuanced than I originally thought (meaning, we're paying 10x for only 5% better).
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Devices using the ES9038PRO chip include the ~$99 Khadas tone board, the ~$14,000 Lumin X1, and many others at price points all over the map. Same DAC chip (or different versions of the same DAC chip) with many different implementations and collateral features. What do you get for nearly $14K with the Lumin X1? The same DAC chip but 2 of them (one per channel); more sophisticated LEEDH volume control; optical fiber network input (in addition to RJ45 ethernet); a separate linear power supply; solid billet CNC casing. But no Toslink, Coax, or USB inputs. I think you have to pay extra for an IR remote. FWIW, at least one device with that chip ranks near the top of the Audio Science Review comparisons. I have one of them, which cost me about $3K. I suspect the Lumin X1 might produce a noticeably bigger sound stage and maybe more precise/holographic imaging. In somebody’s listening room, to somebody’s ears, but not necessarily mine. |
What exactly is "well-implemented" in Audio-Note DACs? It is quite obvious that measurements play little into Audio-Note's design process. These are not DACs designed remotely for accuracy. Their performance w.r.t. accuracy would put them right about 1983. Here is there 4.1x CD player: https://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-cd-41x-cd-player-measurements
Just what part of it is well implemented? |
You get transformers on the output complete with hysteresis and all kinds of other nice "tubey" artifacts. It does not cost a lot of money to implement an accurate DAC. It is when you don't want it accurate that it costs a lot of money. This is the art/reproduction thing. Their marketing blurb is impressive (Dual Sabre DAC featuring 140db dynamic range --- yes, the chip can, their unit?), and all kinds of superlatives, all rendered meaningless by transformers. |
OP here... But that's the whole point of the thread -- for $99, in my listening space, with my setup, I was surprised that it held it's own so well. Sure there were differences, but none worth 4x / 8x the price. Which brought the original question: For $99, the Toneboard was decent and well respected in my listening space. What's the next level DAC (considering my setup)? I had originally thought that the M500 or Hint6 would be that next level, but was surprised that it was not. I appreciate the thoughts on source material. I'll have a look at Qobuz this weekend and run another test.
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@jjss49 +1 The whack a ment games have commenced. |
@martinman Hey Buddy a lot of folks have been in this hobby a long time and I do apologize I shouldn't of said what I did. However we are talking apples and oranges here. Our Nirvana is getting breathed upon by Lennon, Jagger etc. Can you imagine how it feels sitting next to John Lennon? It's yours for $50k+. It really isn't possible much short of that price point. Please go and make an appointment with several dealers that sell really high end gear and realize what is possible. : ) |
All things said about measurements and blah blah blah. One of my favorite DAC's was a Border Patrol SE DAC. On paper you would through it in the trash. In application it is one of the best sounding non up-sampling DAC's to ever grace my listening room. Have owned several others since including Simaudio, Merason, Denfrips and now the Bel Canto DAC2.7. (love it) |
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@martinman , I typed two responses, but when they posted, they both came out blank so I deleted them. Maybe a browser issue. The $99 DAC obviously lacks electrical isolation that will ensure the best performance in all systems, but the chip in that DAC is the result of decades of integration, and modern semiconductor processes and advancements in how to make a DAC. The advancements are not as dramatic as digital semiconductors over 30 years, but they are substantial hence why a $99 high performing DAC is possible. The chip does not require $1000's of supporting components around it to extract near its best performance assuming fidelity to the original analog signal is your goal. If you want instead art, that is going to cost you big bucks, and like any art, you may like it or you may not. |
@martinman: It's regrettable that you inadvertently stepped on a hornet's nest. The best approach would be to listen to DACs at various price points and of various architectures in your system and let your ears decide. DACs cover quite a wide spectrum, in terms of sonic presentation so it's a matter of personal taste. You can't learn what will most please your ears from anyone else-- you have to listen and figure that out for yourself!
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OP, I have had a Schiit Bifrost for a few years and it sounds good. I bought a Hegel H390 and the built in DAC sounds every bit as good as the Bifrost. I just bought a Denafrips Pontus ll and it blows both other DAC’s out it the water. Is it the different tech, or is it that the Pontus ll costs more? Maybe, but they are all sound great and they all sound different. JD
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Agree @curiousjim I just bought a Pontus II myself. It's by far the best digital I have heard in my system. Oz
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@david_ten , Define state of the art for digital. I mean truly define it. At what point, in clear, concise words, does a DAC become state of the art? |
You need to define it for yourself. Hint: it's not the DAC.
I will repeat using different words. In a clear, concise, easily understood, and repeatable, i.e. I can easily say something is state of the art or not, what defines a digital playback system that is "state of the art".
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@martinman: "I think the best way to sum up this thread is ... you can get a lot of DAC for very little $$$".
I'd suggest that depends upon what you like and more to the point, what you've heard. A 2K DAC may sound incredible compared to a $300 DAC but less so when compared to a $10K DAC.
I have heard $500 DACs that arguably sounded much better than $10K DACs, and I have heard $10K DACS that sound virtually the same as $1500-2000 DACs. It does not take a lot of money to make a DAC that properly recreates an analog waveform. Above a relatively small amount of money, it is purely specmanship and not audible differences. However, if you choose to make a DAC that does not accurately recreate the waveform, something that a lot of expensive DACs intentionally do, then there really is no price/performance curve as it is all personal preference. However, human nature is to assign a higher quality to something purely on price.
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It appears we need a trigger warning on my posts ^^^^^ I have a feeling many will be quite happy to engage with me. Perhaps a breath of fresh air. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Nothing I am saying should be contentious. They are simple truth. Uncomfortable truths perhaps, but simple truths non the less. |
I think @andypanda is back. |
Hello, I have demoed the Hint6 and it is very good for what it is. I call it the Swiss Army knife of integrated amps. It does everything ok. That’s just it. It doesn’t do anything great. I am going to suggest you listen to a Hegel 190. The Hegel 120 will do very well to. Hegel goes great with KEF speakers. The DAC, preamp, and amp section inside will put the Hint6 to shame. Once you demo a Hegel you will get it. This store in the Chicagoland area is a dealer for all of this if you want to check this out or demo things in your home. Actually Holm Audio is having a KEF, Ayre, and Nordost demo event this Thursday, December 2nd from 12:00 to 9:00pm. If you call the store they will give you details. www.HolmAudio.com |
@cindyment It appears you are regurgitating a load of stuff about DACs from Wikipedia or wherever, your incites don't seem to come from experience or first hand knowledge. Here we go: A $99.00 DAC is a turd and you can't put lipstick on it you probably have a better DAC in your laptop or car. What makes a good DAC? Firstly it needs as good a signal as possible, so just sticking a computer USB into it isn't going to cut the mustard. If you're using a computer you need JPLAY or similar to reduce computer jitter and provide drivers for the DAC. Secondly to get the best sound you need a re-clocker such as Mutec to put the USB into before the DAC. Then an AES/EBU or COAX into the DAC. Please don't worry about OP amps or valves or trannies if the signal and jitter are taken care of properly you'll get a great sound. A big clean linear power supply is more important than what OP amps you use. The icing on the cake is a Word or Master clock so you can either slave your system to the Master or output separate Word signals. Some good cables both digital and analogue will help enormously.
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Same egotistical methodology, same use of three paragraphs , same abrasive manner ( altho turned up a notch due to the anonymity) claims of expertise in the field of XRay and other medical sciences e.g. Neuroscience etc .etc . One might consider that since his suspension and release, orchestrated by another barely believable persona, and being aware that he will be under scrutiny from the Admin and Moderation team, the requirement for anther account as an outlet for his ‘True’ personality must be compelling. *** Simply Ignore *** |
+1 @tsushima1 Please let's end the thread here. |
@lordmelton , that was quite a feat to include so much "wrong" in a single post.
The $99 DAC has one of the best DAC chips made, the ESS9038, and yes that matters, because the chip does almost all the heavy lifting. My computer and my car most definitely do not have one of the same quality.
Define a "good signal"? It is USB, and it really is "bits". The transfer is virtually every new DAC is async, i.e. the data transfer is completely independent from the audio output. That would be wrong #2.
Async transfer. "Jitter"on USB is meaningless and I don’t need JPLAY, I just need to ensure I have my setting correct. There are many good guides on the web for doing this. Wrong #3.
Perhaps you have not noticed the most recent Class-D amps, and linear amps using switch mode supplies and having performance better than just about anything with a linear supply? You don’t need a linear supply for good performance, you just need to know what you are doing. "BIG"? It is a DAC. They have fairly small power requirements. More important is ground loops and in most cases not relying on computer power, but not always either. A USB isolator is far more important than a linear supply. That would be wrong #4 and wrong #5.
Async USB, again. There is no "slaving" of anything. Except for the most cheap DAC implementations in your phone / laptop, external DACs will run a separate oscillator for the DAC, even that $99 one. Wrong #6.
How will they help? Not hand waving. Very specific, how will they help. How will spending big sums of money, as opposed to say $10 or $20 for shielded cables make any difference? Again, not hand waving. That would be wrong #7
I do find irony in your accusing me of reading of Wikipedia but you don’t seem to have much understanding of how a DAC works.
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@tsushima1,
Do you have a fiscal interest in the products discussed in this thread. I assume you do as you are just attacking me, but have not brought any value to the thread, and not refuted anything I have wrote. Why do you feel the need to censor your fellow posters, and I don't mean me. They are adults. They can make their own choices about what they respond to. |
Addressing the OP. I doubt you would find anything "better" than the SMSL if it has the features you want and you're looking for a DAC that's not going to add coloration. If you're thinking warranty purposes and the hassle of shipping overseas there are US companies like Benchmark, Bel Canto, Schiit etc. Don't get sucked into the rabbit hole of more expensive = better in DACs no matter what anyone tells you, even me. Find out for yourself, while not perfect try to compare them blind and level matched if possible or at least level matched. |
@cindyment Yes you must be right because the Aries Cerat Kassandra II DAC weighs 120kgs and Lamm hasn't changed the design of their solid state 1.2 class A monoblocks for around 20 years. These guys must be total clowns to build such garbage : ) Except there's plenty of people parting with $40k USD to buy each one. |
I’m not liking the new poster and their forum flooding...their inability to show their name and face, and how they operate under false name after false name, etc.......but I do tend to agree with most of this. At least as far as the surface ’take’ on it might be. But not with the superiority complex that comes down on from high, in a ’kindly dismissing of a child’ kinda way. A psychological victim of their own shooting from the bushes constantly, where they have lost their moral and ethical compass when it comes to relating with others on forums. The true self has been exposed, kinda thing. ~~~~~ Then we get down into the nuts and bolts of how to implement the chip and methodologies, etc -that are in question. And that is the part that separates the knowledgeable/lore from the book learned. Which is the part that is not shared on forums, generally, as that is the money maker part for the given audio electronics production and sales enterprise. The fundamental disagreements and arguments will always exist, though. As long as people are individuals and have different minds and physiological aspects from one another, this 'argument' and all of it's giant sweeping tail of complexities in life ---will remain. |
Plenty? Unlikely. But enough that it makes sense as a business model to keep in their product line, absolutely. Louis Vitton sells a lot of hand bags too, even if cheaper ones are far better at the purpose. Price is 0 indication of fitness for the application.
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I will just point out again, that your ongoing attempts at attempting to discredit me personally do nothing to validate the relevance or accuracy of what you have posted. I would encourage you to stick to the topic and address what I have wrote. If you feel the need to discredit me to advance your posts, that does not indicate to me that you can support what you posted with arguments. I could be wrong, but so far, you are proving me correct.
Other than responding to your posts which are of a personal nature and not related to the topic, my posts have been on the nuts and bolts of chips, and DACs. Not hand waving and marketing speak but addressing real technical realities. If you would like to try to poke holes in my knowledge on DACs, feel free. If your attempts are flawed, I will point them out. I would love a discussion about the nuts and bolts of chips and DACs. Have at it. I thought that was what this thread was about? I have clearly, and concisely addressed exactly what the OPs post was about, and presented counter arguments based on real knowledge and experience, not "lore", in the hopes the OP will not be mislead. That is my goal. Can you please communicate to me what your goal is so that I can better respond? I expect your response will illustrate my post. You could prove me wrong though.
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@cindyment Manic, bi-polar? |
