Network optimization for serious streamers

@ghdprentice Have you considered trying a mesh system instead of an extender? Several people here seem to think it sounds better.  Just thinking could be something to try, and if there’s any improvement it’d be a very cheap upgrade.  Love to hear your thoughts if you ever give it a go. 

I have been thinking about how to approach this question for a while. I try to say stuff that is helpful and brings folks together… not start religious wars. But I feel I need to say something.

I think the answer to the question is to buy a great streamer. The issue of getting high quality sound from streaming can effectively be approached two ways. Get a high quality streamer or a low quality streamer and improve the incoming signal.

I know using logic is very hazardous in high end audio, but I have a lot of experience in streaming over the last twenty years… but the biggest increases in sound quality have come from streamer upgrades… but also while I have done EtherRegen… I have not done fancy audiophile grade switches.

Having said that. I would hope any decent streamer (mine do) would cashe incoming files. So, they are basically file transfer and conversion devices. They capture and store a file. This means the speed / latency is not an issue ( it sure isn’t for me. I use Aurender streamers and the work without a hitch, when I can’t get my iPad to refresh a web site). So, optimizing the pipe isn’t what is required. I use wall wart wifi extenders and streaming sound quality is the same as my really good vinyl end). So, the issue is isolation of noise and conversion / retransmission. This is where PCs are not good. The power supplies and internal environment, extrainious activities on the processor, physical vibration.. etc.

So, this is why / where dedicated streamers shine. They put effort and money into power supplies, isolation and conversion. Why quit the entire pipeline when the streamer can do that. Anyway, my experience with streaming points to the most cost effective method of improving streaming is to put your money into the streamer. Not that you cannot ultimately achieve somewhat similar sound quality by fiddling with every aspect of the incoming signal. If fiddling with technology turns you on great (I have been in IT for over 35 years).

Especially since conversion from incoming IP protocol to digital out is a key function… I chose to put my investment in a great streamer. My wall wart wifi extender does produce world class sound.

Some folks l

Some other network strategies as an option (albeit more adv).  Consider some/all of the network setup similar to components:

- Use a dedicated router for just that purpose and not an all in one (router, switch, wifi etc..)

- use a managed or semi managed switch to setup indiv broadcast networks (VLAN's for IoT, music etc).  These also have fiber capability and thus you can run fiber to listening room.

- use AP's in diff parts of you home for wifi (working in conjunction with the switches)

- Rack all of this into your util room.

I went through this about a yr ago and though a fair amount of work, the benefits were significant.

I have done quite a bit to optimize my network, but I have to share one tweak that really raised the sonic performance of my streaming and system.   Some have done this and it deserves more attention.  I upgraded the fuses in my Innuos Zenith 3 and LPS powering my switch and modem to SR Purple.  I was not prepared for the level of sonic improvement realized. Easily the best upgrade I have experienced for the money.  Easily.  Stunning is an understatement in my particular system. I cannot think of any single network upgrade, cable, footer etc…. that was as impactful.  Before anyone decides to upgrade a server, please try these Purple fuses.  They do take 24 hours to sound great.  The first 24 hours are no indication of the final result.  
 

When I was helping a friend setup ROON streaming in his workshop I ordered a 100-foot fibre optical cable from Sonore. The person at Sonore told me that longer cables are actually better for fibre optical. I was asking him if such a long length would degrade performance.

For people requiring such long lengths but still needing Ethernet, why not run the distance in fibre and at the last little bit convert to Ethernet?

@sns I am going to go with the SPDIF on the Benchmark DAC3B to RAAL VM-1a tube amp. It sounds a bit better to me, and that is what matters.

I am currently testing the i2s on the Musetec 005. I can really do a nice apples-to-apples comparison with GROUPED ROON streams. I think the i2s could be as good as the USB on the 005. The i2s cable is cheap and brand new so it is likely breaking-in.

Last night, I realized that with my 3 existing Sonore OpticalRendu’s and the new Lumin X1 and the Sonore UltraDigital (with SPDIF and i2s). I have 6 ways to stream with fibre as a part of the stream. I think I am going to sell 2 of my OpticaRendu’s if the i2s is good or close to the Musetec 005 USB.

BTW - the Musetec 005 vs Lumin X1 DAC sections come down to a matter of preference. The X1 streamer is excellent. Like the opticalRendu. I am keeping 1 005 and may sell the 2nd 005.

I wish a manufacturer designed an in house wireless streamer. With the air gap it could theoretically solve all these network noise problems.

But because the only choice is off the shelf wireless solutions they all sound worse than hard wired.

As a followup to importance of these upgrade and impact in my setup. I'd put extending coax vs long ethernet to modem, and lps on router as the big two. These two easily made the greatest impact, and were easily heard even when entire audio system was less resolving. All other upgrades were more incremental in nature, taking them all together was certainly large upgrade, but taking each individually not as impressive as the two biggies. Still all are worthwhile even if one has less resolving system at present. They should positively impact any system and as one upgrades overall system, you can have assurance network is up to snuff.

An easy way to test with wifi disabled is to have music player control or remote app on laptop, get usb to ethernet adapter, now have hard wired laptop. Vast majority of Android devices won't work with ethernet as most Android OS don't support ethernet.

I had also heard many cat 7 ethernet cables manufactured with ground connected at only one end, assumed this for all cat 7. Seems this not true. In any case the purpose of minimizing noise at every single link in streaming chain remains critical. Any noise, whether internally generated or picked up by ethernet cable needs to be minimized, to think we can eliminate it entirely is a fools errand. Extending coax vs long ethernet takes care of the noise issue at that point in chain, very important step.

In regard to comparing ethernet vs wifi vs optical. Noise equation comes down to wifi and optical total galvanic isolation, obviously no noise transferred component to component, ethernet may or may not transfer via grounds, and then rfi entering via connectors. So ethernet may lose a bit here, but think about self generated noise, wifi  certainly high noise, you've lost some resolution at very first link in chain. Sure, wifi signal may be strong enough for no drop outs, but noise is loss of resolution no matter where generated. Plus likely there may be advantages via ISP, ethernet service may be inherently lower noise vs wifi. Ethernet vs optical advantages may be more difficult to discern, optical devices may or may not generate more self noise than ethernet, obviously optical cables less noisy than ethernet. Still far more ethernet equipment available, switches, filters, clocking to maximize ethernet jitter, noise performance. The only optical upgrades I"m aware of is the Sonore equipment, specifically the OpticalModule with it's superior power supply, filtering, clocking, which can then further be upgraded with the Finisar and/or Cisco optical transceivers. I'd like to see a fully optimized ethernet network faceoff against the optical. I'm not far off here, just need to acquire two more OpticalModules and Finisar transceivers.

@yyzsantabarbara  USB vs SPDIF superiority is totally conditional on both streamer and dac optimization of these ports. Theoretically, best rendering scheme would be optimized port on streamer going to optimized port on dac. Very few streamers and dacs provide optimized usb, assume it most difficult rendering scheme to optimize since it has greatest inherent liabilities. Not difficult to determine optimized rendering ports in streamers and dacs, manufacturer will state something to the effect of dedicated power supply, filtering and clocking for the rendering port, in dacs this will generally be XMOS or Amanero usb boards, in streamers proprietary boards. Lacking optimized ports in many streamers and dacs finding preferred port is crap shoot. Generally, not as difficult to find optimized ports in dacs, our 005 usb ports being one example, finding optimized usb rendering in streamers far more rare, usually one of the SPDIF ports or possibly I2S will be best port to use. Whatever the case, certainly may be worthwhile to experiment with all ports.

@sns I got all setup to do a subjective A-B test to see how much gain there is to be had disabling wireless on the modem router.

When I sat down to do the 2nd half I found I could not connect to my Lindemann streamer with my iPhone app. Cos wireless was disabled. Idiot. =)).

As suggested here I will try the TP-Link Omada as a router with separate wireless access point.

There are a few manufacturers who now eschew the use of metal housed RJ45 connectors as used on many high end ethernet cables (such as Nordost), claiming the metal connector touches the ground, and this then exposes the external jacketing to a high frequency skin effect, reducing performance.

Its all black magic but there may be something to this.

@singingg Drain ground wire only on one end, so as not to pass noise. Melco Audio specialise in audiophile switches, so have hardware experience in this.

@yyzsantabarbara I think Benchmark would say that all there inputs sound the same. You should call them. They are very gracious about your questions and experiences. My thought revolves back to my discovery of the impact of a separate power wire in the Pangea  USB design. 30 day refund available.

@agisthos I am here to learn. I just finished looking at all the marketing blurbs for ethernet cables at Thecableco.com. Not one boasted floating the shielding and thus reinventing the  Cat specs. One boasted they do not have to twist their pairs, and another boasted that their materials were so above the norm they could not call there cables Cat Ethernet (sigh). Could you please list some cables that float their shields? Thanks

@singingg Last night, I was listening to my Benchmark DAC3B with my uber revealing RAAL CA-1a headphones on the RAAL VM-1a tube amp. I normally stream fibre from a Sonore OpticalRendu to the USB of the DAC3B. However, last night I was short of a long fibre cable, so I did something different. I used some fibre to go into my Lumin X1 DAC then stream out by SPDIF to the Benchmark DAC3B SPDIF. I used a WyWire SPDIF cable and that connection from the X1 to the DAC3B seemed to be better sounding than the USB input of the DAC3B with the oR. The USB was also WyWire.

Now I am not convinced that the X1 steaming is better than the opticalRendu. More testing is needed, but past tests had me leaning towards the oR as being a tiny bit more refined.

I am questioning whether the Benchmark DAC3B SPDIF is better sounding than the USB. Need to test this some more.

I prefer the X1 in almost all situations over the DAC3B, except with the VM-1a tube amp (not 100% certain but it does not matter, since DAC3B needs to stay put).

@singingg Its not a choice between shielded vs unshielded cables. Its whether the ground is contiguous. Some of the cable manufacturers are floating the shields, floating at one end, not using metal RJ45 connectors, e.t.c

Of course doing these things means they are not meeting Cat7/8 spec, but they claim its results in better network audio streaming performance.

This is conundrum that leads to choice of optical. Some info on ethernet cabling-https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/Intro/SQ/GalvanicIsolationEthernet.htm

@singingg +1. Good post!

On #3, WiFi:

Wifi with potential dropouts

You forgot the potential electric noise the WiFi antenna / transmitter built in the unit may introduce to the unit itself.

@sns ​

Shielding :

Cat 7 introduces foil wrap over twisted pairs.

Cat 8 introduces wire mesh over the foil shield over more intensely twisted pairs. This is obviously superior shielding to Cat 6, 6A, 7.

Both cables are grounded at both ends.

@agisthos

So, what are our choices?

1. Unshielded ethernet wire with possible RFI/EMI contamination

2. Shielded ethernet wire with contiguous grounds needing filtering

3. Wifi with potential dropouts

4. Most use a combination : 2) for the music signal, and 3) for playback control, getting the best reliability and convenience.

I am not a technician. This is just my layman’s understanding of what I have been trying to implement in my system.

My current understanding allies with the two camps:

A. We need to get all the "packets" delivered into the buffer to be fed to the DAC. Industry network standards seem to have this well covered.

B. We need to lower the noise floor (because this is where we hear the AUDIBLE GAINS) with multiple routers, optical filters, high quality cables, power supplies, power cables, resonance control and who knows what else.

C. It seems a lot of people have not been able to see these camps as two legs serving the same torso. And the disagreements arise when camp-two-implementations are seen as having no possible effects on camp-one-science. The question ultimately boils down to having your packets delivered pristinely or smeared with mud.

LORD, Bess this post!

@singingg The contiguous ground is what passes noise down the chain from one component to the next. For the purposes of audiophile streaming this is one ‘performance benefit’ you don’t want.

It seems the best solution is to wire your house with Ethernet ports, then turn wireless off permanently in the modem/router no?

@sns  I did a little research :

 Cat 7 & Cat 8 require that all equipment and hardware in the system support a contiguous ground, or there will be no performance benefit to Cat 7/Cat 8 over previous standards such as Cat 6.

@wvbossfan Some good info here, will have to check into this!

@singingg I believe running that 50' of cat 8 less than optimal on a number of counts. One is there is possible loss of signal with that long of run of ethernet. two, I believe Cat 8 grounded at both ends (cat 7 best for shielding), any noise riding on grounds is riding directly into next component in chain, three, part of the improvement from moving modem near system is it makes higher quality ethernet cabling affordable. I know some don't believe ethernet cabling doesn't make a difference, I and many others beg to differ. I've used generic cat 6,7, Supra, and a number of varieties of AudioQuest. Presently use AQ Vodka, made a sound qualitative difference for me, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

@wvbossfan I agree 100% on the fiber recommendation. I’ve got fantastic results with that. Also if you look at some of the high end streamers like Lumin, they do fiber internally in the component. This is what reduces the network noise which gives you outstanding results. 

@sns  When I was considering the Pangea USB cable, I called Benchmark to inquire if their DAC3B needed the 5v signal over USB. They assured me that it did. They are working on a new design that does not, but it is not on the market yet. Therefore the Pangea offered an elegant solution.

So, if I understand you correctly, the 50’ CAT8 run is not an issue per se, because I will get the same potential RFI leakage through the connectors with say a 3’ run from router to switch? Thanks as this idea is new to me.

Great thread and helpful for streamers. @sns applaud your sincerity in gathering your experience. I concur with your observations and advice.

Everyone's input here is valuable and I want to add couple of things from my own experience:

Consider replacing router with any of the firewall pcs or any minipc to run Pfsense or similar routing software. Example: Protectli, but anything small, no more than 2 cores will do. In comparison to the home router setup that I tried (netgear, tplink, ubiquiti) this gave the best sound. 

Wifi separation is necessary and I use an access point. The biggest improvement I found was to separate the wifi from main chain using fiber. I dropped the second network after fiber isolation.

One of the hidden and most surprising gain I experienced in network improvement is from Clocking. I use an EtherRegen and regardless of its intended function, what I want to add for everyone here, is that it allows the addition of external clocks into the network. This is by far the best correction for network quality and in turn, audio. In my experience, once a clock connects to a network it affects the entire network. Since I am not that knowledgeable on this topic, I can only share the experiential aspect.

For power supply enhancements, even with LPS, what I thought was good quality improved even further once I used a balanced isolation transformer. This removed the common mode noise from the chain and what you think is quiet noise floor, will become hugely improved.

Everything I read here is good information and stands on its own, as each of us is experiencing those things due to our unique setup. 

@singingg This limitation is known, any number of manufacturers offer usb without the 5v power cable. The other method for regular usb is to tape over the 5v power leg within the connector. Some dacs require the 5v power, some need it for handshake, for the rest tape or purchase usb cable minus the power leg.

The wifi is absolutely creating noise, whole point of isolating wifi to second router. As pointed out in an earlier post, another scheme being used is the managed router, popular move is the Ubiquity router. If one really wants to get into weeds on going down this path, whatsbestforum has in depth threads speaking to this. Keep in mind managed routers not exactly for the novice, requires some knowledge of how networks operate.

The issue with quality ethernet cable is not so much with the cable itself, assuming one is using CAT7, rather it is the connectors where RFI enters. Rich Truss of Network Acoustics, John Swenson of Uptone are just two of many experts who've reported on this. This leakage is why users of optical devices and cables and/or ethernet filters such as the NA Muon report positive results.

The issue with filters and such is you're ONLY CLEANING up corruption/noise further up chain. Point of this entire thread is to try to AVOID the need to CLEAN up that noise, this is only band aid covering up the wound. YOU CAN'T GET BACK WHATS BEEN LOST PRIOR IN CHAIN! Any noise corrupting the signal is lost information/resolution. Assuming one's system and streaming is sufficiently resolving I guarantee these optimizations will lower one's noise floor to level easily heard. I began with a number of these upgrades years ago when my streaming setup was far more modest. I was using modified Mac Minis, variety of usb filters and Auralic Vega when I moved modem close to audio system, replacing 25' of ethernet with coax. I was amazed by the lowered noise floor even with this more modest system, another great benefit is cost of this virtually nothing.

The fact is add all these upgrades together, you'll never find a greater bargain in high end audio, this is like crossing all the T's, dotting all the I's, tidy up your network! Spending thousands, tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and having crap network is absolutely ridiculous. People spend so much time researching equipment, can't understand so little attention paid to network.

@sns I’m using a generic tx and rx fiber converter, (cheap from large online retailer) 15 ft of multi mode cable, and bluesound node with a linear power supply upgrade, wireword Ethernet cables on node end and from Qnap NAS and getting outstanding results. Huge soundstage, depth, smooth as silk and ultra quiet. I can’t believe I got these results for such a small investment. Good luck to you, don’t over do it perhaps. 

@dinov I've tried this both pre and post server, continue to use post server with OpticalModule and OpticalRendu. Pre server found optical conversion inferior to ethernet, this with generic FMC, both powered via lps. No doubt low noise floor with the FMC, but slightly thinner, less analog like sound quality vs present ethernet setup. With two OpticalModule with stock or upgraded Finisar transceivers the equation may change.  Its likely I'll try this at some point, but certainly possible to achieve very nice outcome with FMC pre streamer. The other possibility is router with optical out capability with a single OpticalModule.

This post is perfect timing for me as I investigate the further refinement of my streaming setup.

I have learned much from others experience and gradually tested and implemented all the currently recognized solutions for eliminating noise. Please refer to my post on 3/29/2022 for my upgrade process used in my Sonore system.

I have an additional discovery to report. The only way to get the signal from the ultraRendu to my DAC is using a USB cable. What is the problem with such cables is they have a power wire integrated with the signal wires. This new cable came on the market recently, Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable, and it tweaked my interest as a potential solution to a noise problem. I was not expecting much, but when installed, it made the single most profound blackening of the background of any tweak so far reveling hidden details by the bushel. Bravo! Genius! How ironic to scrub ethernet of noise pre-renderer and then reintroduce it post-renderer with a USB cable!?! Of course, after reaching this new sonic level, I cannot imagine further refinement possible.

Back to this post. Is the wifi corrupting the ethernet signal in my router? Is the 50’ of Cat8 cable running from router to switch picking up RFI? I will mull this over and find a path forward in the coming weeks because Everything Matters. I eagerly await the findings of those who implement your tweak of two routers. Thanks for the creative suggestion.

Add fiber right before your source component!

@steakster That defeats the whole purpose of eliminating the wifi,rfi noise. I don't see why you'd have issues with swapping as long as you don't have conflicting ip addresses, this shouldn't affect the firmware unless you manually make changes to it. The other issue I see with your setup is modem and router are in laundry room, unless your audio system is in laundry room you're running long ethernet cable to system, not good!

For everyone, the only issue is one has to have internet access setup on both machines. I did this by having original router as access point, when I changed it to secondary router, this original access point was available to all devices connected to it. I had to manually connect first time, set for auto connect, no issues at all.

The primary router will see secondary router as unidentified device, doesn't know its router. I reserved/assigned IP address to this router so there would continue to be static or consistent communication between that router and wifi or ethernet connected devices. What this does is mirror image of primary routers, for instance primary router always assigned 192.168.1.1 by ISP, for instance one could assign 192.168.1.10 or some other last number in sequence as long as that address doesn't conflict with another reserved or dynamically assigned IP address. I like all my audio devices and secondary router connected to primary router to have reserved IP address, the secondary router can assign dynamically.

@fthompson251 I predict you can do much better, I see no benefit of two cheap switches, or even a single switch vs optimized router direct into streamer. I tried a $1K audiophile switch, nice lps and oxco clock, result was diminished sound vs optimized router. Cheap routers only have lousy power supply, lots of noise, poor clocking, jitter, at least an audiophile switch improves greatly on this. I do see a possible benefit with audiphile switch used as ethernet filter, still, I'd get only the filter, lets say Network Acoustics Muon and forget about the switch. Yours is another setup that would benefit greatly from much shorter ethernet cable.

@agirard I don't see having an issue with that router. My routers both Netgear, assume different brand routers would work together, don't see why not. Again, the only possible issue I can see is having devices connected to secondary router not seeing it as internet access point if it wasn't used as access point previously. Doubt it would show up in list of possible internet access points, not hundred percent sure about this, but I didn't see any new access point that would conform to secondary router, the original named access point was on list.

I’m sold on the benefits of network optimization.

I’ve added boxes to the Arris cable modem supplied by my ISP, including of course a router (TP-Link AX50), used Cisco 2960 switch bought on Amazon for $25 (wow), fiber out from the switch to an EtherRegen, ethernet to an Allo DigiOne Signature streamer, then SPDIF coax to my Schiit Bifrost multibit DAC.

An HDPlex 300W linear power supply powers the modem, router, Cisco switch, and Intel NUC running ROON (I modded the Cisco to bypass the native switchmode power supply, not hard to do).

I also have DX Engineering Iso-Plus ethernet filter pairs everywhere there is ethernet cable, except after the EtherRegen (sounded worse).

I guess in order of most improvement, I’d put the EtherRegen, DX Engineering filters, then the linear power supply. A bit of a bump with the four Canare 4S6 DC XLR-to barrel plug power cables I soldered up myself.

So a somewhat similar journey to the OP’s.

What’s left is offboarding the wifi on the router to another machine.

Can someone verify that a wifi access point like this one will do the job?

TL-WA3001 | AX3000 Gigabit Wi-Fi 6 Access Point | TP-Link

I’ve run into that double-NAT problem mentioned earlier by daisy-chaining routers in an earlier life and it seems like just using the access point for all the other wifi units in the house, turning off wifi in the router, and connecting only the audio system to it will do the trick.

Really appreciate the wisdom that you can’t fix pollution from the first box later and resolving noisy wifi in routers seems like an important step here.

My jitter is less than 1 with bargain optical solutions. Then again my modem measure between 1 and 2 jitter. 

Is it preferable to have 2 switches in the chain? For example I have my Spectrum Modem connected to a Linksys router then connected to a cheap 5 port Switch. The Cat 8 ethernet cable is 35 feet long and connects to another LHY high quality switch which I have a good .5 meter silver Ethernet cable connected to my Enos filter connected to the streamer. I could go back and directly connect the long run ethernet cable directly to a port on the Linksys router and eliminate the first switch for streaming. Would that be a benefit? (I know I can try it myself, just asking)

BTW, my upstairs Apple Air Port router is connected to the cheap switch to run the upstairs PC, TV, HT stuff. So my dedicated 2 channel listening room has it's own dedicated connection as stated.

If I had fiber ISP I'd at least try optimized fiber setup pre streamer vs ethernet conversion, who knows what my new Finisar transceivers bring to the table.

@bruce19 Missed your post on ambient noise levels. And yes, this has long been concern of mine, even started thread on this some time ago. I only listen evenings when ambient noise levels lower vs day, besides I have other activities for daytime. Anyway, daytime ambient noise levels are typically in 40 to 50db, at night they more typically in 30's, can drop down as low as high 20's. I turn off most noise makers in house, including refrigerator, kitchen adjoins listening room, storm windows down in winter, little traffic or wind noise outside is prime. So yeah, ambient noise level is absolutely critical for detecting lowest noise floors from our audio systems!

Also, for those attempting the two router setup, my original router which became my secondary router was already set up for network access, therefore, when used as secondary or whole house wifi router, all my wifi devices still saw that network connection point, manually clicked on it, voila, instant internet access. Believe I had to reboot some devices. Also to eliminate IP address conflicts I reserved/assigned IP addresses to my audio network devices, therefore, streamer, NAS and Sonore OpticalRendu, also this for my RS7000 or secondary router.

I understand there has been some conversation about jitter and it's impact on networks and/or our ability to hear it. I will have to admit that some part of what I'm hearing as more analog presentation may be due in part to burn in of various devices and parts more recently installed. This includes Duelund Cast coupling caps in 300B amps, JCAT Optimo S ATX linear power supply for custom streamer, tons of parts to burn in for 3 rail, 30amp capable power supply, and perhaps to lesser extent, the OpticalModule. No doubt some of the blooming lends itself to perception of more analog like presentation. Still, I hear and have heard improvements in flow and timing over the years with  network upgrades, so this implies jitter may impact sound quality.

@sns Thanks for posting your thoughts and impressions of your ongoing network optimizations. Improving the network pre-server is a task I will be handling once my DIY server is complete. The great variety of streaming setups out there makes finding a unified reference difficult. Many people find UTP into the server preferable to fiber into the server. Fiber pre-router/switch is more agreed upon as netting positive results.

To complicate things on my end, Taiko has made their network card available to non-Extreme owners. This presents another option vs the Startech or Xilinx network cards I am considering.

@yyzsantabarbara I've never used the Etherregen so have no opinion. I will soon be experimenting with Finisar FTLX1475D33BTL optical transceivers in OpticalModule and Optical Rendu. Again, measure lower in jitter vs garden variety transceivers. These seem hard to get these days, most outlets have no stock. The few that do are charging arm and leg, I've seen $300 apiece . I came by these and custom build Owens Corning optical cable at After Dark. I'll be experimenting with these downstream side of my custom build streamer. Based on research I've undertaken, these transceivers will work with SGC equipment. Seem to remember someone trying with EtherRegen, can't recall outcome, also questionable if it would work with your dac.

In general terms I can't say improvements I'm hearing are mostly jitter or lower noise floor. Most noticeable improvement has been lower noise floor with these optimizations. I'm assuming jitter is issue based on more analog like sound quality I've attained. Ed Meitner of EMM  claims jitter heard as smaller sound stage and more nervous quality, or what most interpret as digititus. A large measure of improvement in digital components has been due to ever increasing immunity to jitter. The question is at what level does jitter cease to be perceived by humans. Are excellent or A+ grades for ping time as good as its gets, or are there perceptible differences within these grading levels?

@classdstreamer I'm aware of the Ubiquity products, some claim using them in series provides even greater benefits. I do have an enterprise level router sans wifi in house, MikroTik CCR1036=8G-2S. integrating this into system will come in time.

No doubt fiber may be good solution, I've preferred ethernet over fiber pre server, fiber post streamer. This preference has continued, whether this is due to superiority of usb rendering via OpticalRendu vs motherboard usb in streamer is the question. When I install JCAT usb XE in streamer I'll determine whether any optical remains in my setup.

Again, all the above upgrades can be done with little financial outlay vs. the huge amount some of us spend on streamers, dacs, rest of system. People can determine for themselves whether these upgrades effective or not. The consumer grade products are both less costly and simpler for those without great knowledge of networking, good place to start.

@classdstreamer The notion that an internet connection (and everything connected to it) is potentially a source of electronic noise is a possible way to explain audible differences some people report when they experiment with fiber, power supplies, cabling, and other bespoke networking devices.

However, I cannot understand how network latency and jitter (again at reasonable levels) upstream of a streamer’s buffering could affect anything.

FWIW, I use a direct fiber connection to my streamer (from a relatively inexpensive switch with an sfp slot). While my results weren’t as dramatic as what you report, it remains.

@sns You've been experimenting lots. You asked for router suggestions where the routing/firewall component is separated from the wifi access point component. You will find separates in networking once you leave the consumer realm and look at enterprise solutions. The best enterprise solutions for home use are the UniFi Ubiquity and TP-Link Omada lines. With these, you can have your router next do your stereo, but the wifi access points will be on the ceiling. These ought to be cleaner solutions that risking having multiple levels of routers (look up Double NAT) or having to put some routers in bridge mode and turning off the wifi on your main router. 

@nosualc I hear you on buffer. But I converted my ethernet line to fiber right before the line enters the streamer, and it made a giant difference. I don't understand how converting to fiber made such a big difference. I went back to ethernet-only for Q4 of 2022, and I only recently plugged the fiber converters back into the chain. The benefits to the fiber conversion are ridiculous in my system. For $100 in networking gear, it's worth a shot. Besides the fiber converters, I haven't heard benefits with other equipment upstream from the streamer. But, I'll continue to try things now-and-then. 

bruce19

... does connecting a second router to a modem require subscription to a second service from the ISP ...

No.

This link maybe very helpful and there is a ton of good information on this site.

List of 71 Bad Cable Modems to Avoid in 2022 [Do Not Buy] (approvedmodems.org)

@sns does connecting a second router to a modem require subscription to a second service from the ISP or is it permitted on a single subscription?

As an experiment try this:

With a functional streaming setup, listen to some music for a minute or two, then disconnect your streamer from the internet.

In my setup, the music continues to play for just under 120 seconds before it stops.

That tells me that my streamer has enough buffer to hold 120 seconds of the stream (at whatever bit rate the source demands) before it is starved of new data. It also tells me that my streamer can receive data far faster than it can consume (play) it.

Using a buffer in a streaming environment is certainly not a sophisticated technique. I would be shocked if any streaming implementation (regardless of cost) didn’t have at least some buffering.

I’m not trying to pick a fight here, but can somebody explain to me how internet jitter or latency (at reasonable levels) is possibly affecting playback in a buffered situation such as this? The data is not being played in real time, the data is just sitting there waiting.

While I laud the efforts to maximize your network efficiency, at some point I think you’re chasing imaginary dragons.

@sns Just curious, are you measuring this lower background noise level and if so, could you please explain how? If not, and these are listening tests, would you mind sharing what the ambient noise level in your listening room is so we can compare with our own? This can be easily done using a smart phone and an app such as Sound tools.

@sns Thanks for the streaming advice. I got a new DAC which has built-in SFP input. I am testing it out with the EtherRegen in B > A and then into the DAC. This is likely the way to go. However, I need to get an additional set of SFP and another FMC for this new DAC. My Mustec 005 DAC will be using the eR in my office.

Which way would you go?

• EtherRegen B > A | Small Green Computer (sgc) Finisar+ x 2 | sgc Fibre cable
• sgc Optical Module Deluxe | sgc Finisar+ x 2 | sgc Fibre cable
• After Dark SFP+ and RJ45 and Fibre cable | 2nd EtherRegen

BTW - I have 3 OpticalRendu’s throughout the house and the streaming sounds excellent. I currently use only 1 FMC in the older 3 DAC’s. My other FMC’s kept failing so I tossed them out. Now I go direct from 2 network switches to 2 DACs in the non-eR setup. It can sound better but it is good enough for those 2 DACs.

The effects of network congestion displayed below. Nothing changed, other than re-running the test,