Network optimization for serious streamers

@singingg

Thanks for sharing your journey. The Melco C100 Ethernet cable appears to offer a unique feature, will keep an eye on users direct experience with this cable.

“The opposite (non-grounded) end of the cable features an innovative ‘floating’ shield, which is not attached to the connector plug, meaning unwanted noise cannot transfer to connected audio devices downstream”.

I am also anxiously waiting for Telegartner Optical Isolator North America release. I personally prefer Ethernet cable over Optical Fiber so it will be interesting to learn how this device further enhances my listening pleasure :-) 

@singingg : thank you very much for sharing your experience and the journey.

As it pertains to your subsequent post:

I am interested in trying the Melco C100 ethernet cable to see if the ground break in the shield offers any benefits

There are already affordable options available in the market that accomplish this. This is the one I own and I am familiar with: https://www.ghentaudio.com/pc/et11.html

For those who are interested learning on the concept:

I am interested in trying the Melco C100 ethernet cable to see if the ground break in the shield offers any benefits. I found out it will not be available in the USA until late March.

@singingg 

Exactly the kind of knowledge sharing the great majority of us are looking for here. Thank you very much.

Let me share my journey tweaking my streaming network that I built around a Small Green Computer bundle.

FO through wall > ONT > ethernet cat 8 > router > cat 8 > $15 switch > cat 8 > i5 Transporter.

Same switch > cat 8 > FMC > Fiber optic > FMC > cat 8 > ultraRendu with LPS > Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable to Benchmark DAC3B.

I had completely solved all power problems in my system to achieve a superior black background. The above still had grunge :

1. I added a LPS with a Y adapter to power both FMC = better

2. I added a LPS to the Transporter = better

3. I replaced the LPS power chords with Pangea Audio AC-14SE MkII = better

4. I wrapped my fiber optical cable in bubble wrap. It seems they are sensitive to vibrations. = better

5. I replaced the 3 post switch cat 8 ethernet cables with Pangea Premier SE = way way way better, but STILL some remaining niggly grunge!

I had not bought into the $700-$2000+ ethernet switch mania. I had bought my $15 plastic covered switch from Home Depot. I did try a more expensive switch and sent it back because I could hear no improvement. I rewired post switch and removed the FMCs. LISTENED. Then I added the FMCs back in. They were definitely improving the sound, by a lot!

6. I ordered a iFi iPower X Ultra Low Noise AC/DC Power Supply for the switch. I took out the FMCs again and installed the new PS. WHAM!! The sound came into complete focus. I reinstalled the FMCs again and now a huge amount of grunge had disappeared.

7. The new Pangea Audio Premier XL MKII USB Cable came on the market, which separates out the 5v current wire from the signal wires. Because my Benchmark DAC was using the 5v current, I replaced my previous Pangea Audio Premier SE MKII USB Cable (same wire and connecters) and wiped another smear of noise from the window. This is the single biggest improvement of all these suggestions.

8. Shutting the WIFI off in my primary router and using a wireless access point to regain WIFI for the house. It has been less than 24 hours since I did this but the result seems principally in opening up the soundstage : width, depth, and clearer separation. It is too early, but this clarity is maybe revealing other flaws that somehow need to be creatively addressed!?!?! (Are the transients too rounded?)

This was a 3 1/2 year journey. I learned a ton along the way. I hope it is helpful to someone else.

@agisthos as for your experience and knowledge, your post that I have asked several times for some sort of reference, just shows the sad state of the IT profession.

@agisthos since you or someone else flagged my post, which I have no idea why.

He literally says he benched the audiophile cables and got an upgrade, so not acknowledging that is dishonest 

So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

@lalitk 

I said it before and say it again…stop taking the bait from the likes of fredrik222. 

They will go away if you don’t engage them.  

I will personally go away when you stop saying everyone needs an Etherregen otherwise streaming sucks and your system isn’t resolving. Since that won’t happen, I guess we are stuck! 

@jerryg123 perhaps you should read again ?  
 

So, I benched all the Cat7-8 Wirewold/Nordost and Audioquest Diamond stuff and replaced them with high quality unshielded Cat 5 cables and got a nice upgrade in sound quality

Literally says he removed them. 

@grannyring 

So true. Enjoying this thread for the multitude of experiential sharing. Just ignore what is not profitable and let's keep the thread moving.

With the amount of recent threads on Networking here on the 'Gon, it is obvious that there is significant interest in optimizing Networks as users find ways to get better sound. Lovin' it.

Still a great thread. Getting some nice info and just ignoring those with no actual listening and comparing experience. I always appreciate actual listening experiences from audiophiles who have put in the time, effort and money and learned from actual listening experience. Keep it coming!

Why I mentioned previously, no longer engage in cable arguments.

Intention is at issue, simply presenting experiential evidence or having need for people to agree with you. One exposes psychological processes usurping free and open discussion.

Eventually, this kind of back and forth exhausts people, I've seen any number of valued members leave this site for this very reason. Its fine to argue, its the repetition  that's exhausting, make your point once or twice, we get it!

I said it before and say it again…stop taking the bait from the likes of fredrik222. 

They will go away if you don’t engage them.  
 

This thread ruined!

Troll's mission accomplished!

When threads become bogged down in arguments and are no longer productive they die, people quit following them.

This is intentional act by the provocateur, have need to deny full and open discussion. People want to read threads that constantly and consistently present new information, repetitious and circular arguments don't present new info. These threads replicate what I see in political threads, repeat, repeat, repeat. This thread ruined!

All he did was move those cables in the chain. Go re read the post. You have issues with reading comprehension and that was one particular streamer. He moved the AQ, WW and Nordost ahead of his switch. 
 

Point is you will twist the facts to fit your narrative. Now move along and go fishing elsewhere. 

01-21-2023 at 10:52am

@agirard of course I am sure about it. Look at your comments and how Ethernet, TCP/IP, and streaming protocols work. Your comments are not anchored in reality, hence I asked you to post just one thing that supports your claim. That’s complete dishonesty. You either knew it was untrue, or you made it up on the fly.

as for my dishonesty, he literally said Cat7 cables from AQ and Nordost, if that is not audiophile companies, well, then tell me what is.

But like I also posted, in the end, there was a lot of audible issues, issues that was not attributed at all to Ethernet, which is the point. You can have a lot of noise in your system, but none can be attributed to Ethernet.

The thread has virtually collapsed.

Which is what I said once the Troll started posting. 
 

Which is essentially exactly their objective: destroy 

What did I write @01-18-2023 at 03:01pm that nobody seems to have paid attention to. The thread has virtually collapsed.

As I said before most of us are here to learn from others experiences and will determine what will work in our listening environment.

Others seek out key words and phrases like bots just to snipe and disparage. Whether these words are related to geopolitical conditions or the state of our audio experience. The snipers know whom they are. 

@agirard 

As @lalitk, I totally agree with your statement on 01-22-2023 at 07:49am, "while we may disagree with other's opinions', we can't disagree with their experience". This is the approach we all need to take. Instead of using logic on paper, let us try actually using some of this different componentry to achieve better sound. This is what is driving the industry now and I think it has significantly pushed digital in a good direction.

I can guarantee I know more about Ethernet and the related protocols than you ever will. 

Are you sure about this statement? I am in IT and manage computer networks daily and configure, setup and install commercial grade network hardware for my clients. Sure maybe you do know more than me on this subject, but your presumptuous arrogance is typical of the theoretical know nothings who worship at Amir's alter.

When someone replaced a Cat 7 with a Cat 5 cable, you spun that into 'he removed all the audiophile stuff and it then worked' then proceeded to exaggerate this and make it the whole argument. That is a perfect example of dishonestly in argumentation and shows who you really are and the obfuscation you are willing to engage in. But this is part for the course with ASR disciples and is exactly how Amir and crew operate.

@sns Yes they do sound a little harsh in the first few days, within 2 weeks they are well burned in.

I do have stock SFPs and find them really bad compared to some of the best Finisars.

@thieliste Does sound change over time with these, in other words is burn in issue?  How do all these compare to stock transciever in OM? Like to know what to expect and how sound quality may change over time. Just feel I'm in perfectly neutral position at this point, may not want to deviate too much here. Per usual, I understand won't know until I try.

@sns That’s right most resolving and precise are the Finisar 1318 and even more the 1475.

Cisco is creamy and musical and not very resolving.

Most liquid sounding is the Finisar 1321.

I use Phoenix Contact glass fiber single mode.

These audio divides will go on forever, we're not going to solve it here.

As for those who may be interested in possible optical network optimization, here is some info on optical transceivers. https://www.adark.co/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-module-for-audiophile

@agisthos lol. You calling others with knowledge people of “limited theoretical understanding” is hilarious. You posted something that was patently false, proven over and over again. 
 

I can guarantee I know more about Ethernet and the related protocols than you ever will. 

but, since you think you have the theory on your side, prove it. Post 1 thing supporting your statement: “

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.”

@fredrik222 You've made your point, until you have new information we understand where you're coming from. Lets no get into repetition of same old,  same old. Individuals are now well informed as to your opinions, up to those reading this thread to choose who to believe.

As things stand, I'm interested in the various network solutions others employ and their evaluation of sound quality.

@thieliste So this is evidence the Finisar modules will work with the Sonore equipment. Also, what are your impressions in regard to sound qualities via these transceivers? I've heard Finisar more toward precision, Cisco towards warmth. How do the Finisars differ from one another?  I'm going to install the Finisar 1475's this week between OM v2 and OR, also have the AfterDark Ref optical cable for connection between the two. This is the AfterDark Project ClayX Constellation Ref package. One can read about it here, https://www.adark.co/products/copy-of-afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-sfp-module-for-audiophile

This package could also be used between two OpticalModules feeding streamers, I'd consider this to be most extreme optimized optical scheme. Other Finisar or Cisco could also excel.

When I first got into high end audio in about 2002, the industry was just starting to move away from cd players to separate DACs and transports. The exact same troll skeptic screaming and ranting was going on then in the forums - but about SPDIF cables! It was all 1's & 0's, just digital data, so no possible way any type of improved coaxial cable could make any difference, its all bit perfect. Any changes heard are all in your head, a psychoacoustic phenomena or expectation bias because you paid so much for the cable e.t.c

On an on it went but they eventually conceded SPDIF can sound different. But about 10 years later, around 2012, it started again with USB cables. Again the exact same arguments, digital data 1's & 0's, it either passes the data perfect or it doesn't, you are just a fool tricking yourself into hearing differences e.t.c

Now another 10 years later, this time network transfer. Same argument, same fury, same limited theoretical understanding of what is causing these obviously heard changes.

@agisthos what’s the difference between your post and mine? People post that exact same statement over and over again, no matter how wrong it is. and it 100% false, which is a difference from my post…

And you are absolutely wrong, it is not my opinion, they are facts, easily measurable too. But this is where it is goes, every time “I can’t defend my statements, so I am going to attack the person”. And then you call people like me trolls.

@fredrik222 You have now said your piece multiple times - saying the same things over and over. Now go away. People like you feel a need to SPAM (yes its SPAMING) these conversations again and again with the same thing. We don't care or go into your threads on ASR doing this. It's just your opinion, nothing more.

I use a generic optical module from Afterdak and a Sonore optical module Deluxe v2 between my Paul Pang Quad Switch and my Aqua LinQ streamer.

Both optical modules are on LPS.

Ethernet cables are the Pink Faun Lan cables and will add some FTA Metis.

I have some of the best SFP pairs : Finisar 1321, 1318, 1324, 1475 and Cisco 10G.

I also have a Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP that i have yet to experiment between my ISP modem and PP Switch.

Wifi on ISP modem is off.

@agisthos 

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.

This explains why doing things like fibre conversion has such great reported results, because it breaks this noise chain. Also explains why LPS or proper power supply design in custom exotic switches result in sound quality gains at the end of the chain. Again, nothing here is contradicting the network data packet transfer operation, it works fine beneath these other issues. 

But this is measurable. Very easy to do so too! And none of the products do anything at all to eliminate it. That is proven by numerous people, with some focus on EtherRegen, I guess because it's the king of the hill. 

So if you take that away, what else do you have left that these products are supposed to do? Jitter? I already explained why that is not remotely relevant. "High impedance current leakage? Made up term by John Swenson that means nothing. And so on. The technical arguments made by these manufacturers are immediately debunked by people with knowledge. That means something. And as the video I posted from LTT, some products are just pure rip offs as they are literally the same product as a $30 D-Link. (Side note, this was the one Hans was referring to in his latest video).

I do not doubt that many people hear a huge difference, even when nothing is there. But that is psychology, not physics. Similar to listening in the dark vs with the lights on, did sound change? Nope, not at all. Did your brain change its interpretation, for sure. But none of that matters, it is your system, and you need to be happy, but stop pushing $500 ethernet cables on people who are just starting out. 

In general terms I can only say all my consideration/obsessiveness in optimizing network, and previous same level of attention to shelving, footers, AC delivery, room, capacitors, resistors, voltage regulators, internal wiring, inductors, etc. within components, cables, dedicated room treatments  and some things I'm sure I'm forgetting has finally resulted in quality of sound I dreamed of attaining since first hearing high end audio in 1970's! Keeping to my overarching mantra that every link in chain is critically important in every single subsystem within the entire audio system is what's gotten me here. No one will ever convince me tuning and tweaking NOT vital to sound quality of the whole. It may sound stupid, but I could make audio system to human body analogy, all subsystems of both need to be healthy for the whole to be healthy, think holistically.

Thank you all very enlightening.

@sns, your post 2 up seems to sum up the main point that sucked in from the beginning - do what we can to keep the signal clean from the start. Hence my suggestion of the SB2800 router and EdgeRouter X (still need to hear it when it gets here!). Also excited to see what happens by offloading the wifi. Key points at the very front end of the network I hope people who have been able to stick with us this far will take away. Would love to hear from others how this this thinking has or hasn't worked for them in terms of what they hear and how they made it happen.

Thank you all very enlightening.

@agisthos Yes, this is the common explanation by the knowledgeable, is logical explanation and also explains why many of these products provide benefit. And yes, noise and jitter can and is produced at each link along chain, certainly band aids after the fact can BLOCK that noise from continuing down chain, has done nothing to address that noise, jitter at point of creation, some information permanently lost, some level of jitter affecting flow/timing and sound stage has been permanently introduced. Dacs and streamers with great filtering, clocking can only work with what they've been given, I prefer giving them clean water vs sewer water,

Thanks @lalitk.

Another way to look at it:

It's probably safe to say the vast majority of people reading this are readers, not contributors.

Having mostly been the former, I come here to see what optimizations people have made that improve the sound.

WHY the optimization makes an improvement is interesting - and to a degree helps make the report more credible - but really is less important, at least to me, as there are few other places than forums to get the info about the tweaks that make a positive difference. @erik_squires has done that for me with room control (ended up making my own panels and traps rather than going with GIK), and millercarbon is behind my choice for the nobsound springs, which I have under every platform and rack, including speaker stands.

Anyway, it's helpful if posters can keep in mind why people come here, which based on my experience is to hear from others the system tweaks that work for them, and then decide for themselves whether they should try it. 

It’s a fair point and I am not here to tell anyone what to do in their houses.  Not everyone on either side is the same though.  Sometimes newbies ask basic questions and the first answer is buy an audiophile switch or Ethernet regenerator, when the person asking the question would just be better off with a speaker or DAC upgrade.  That’s where it really gets me. 

It’s all about the music.  And I too have many things in my system just for fun.  No reason not to explore and enjoy.  Just…let’s all be a bit less dogmatic and defensive?

@jji666 You would think so, but consider how even how the most expensive DAC’s respond positively to better power conditioning, cables and vibration isolation. So they are not going to reject digital high frequency noise easily either.

@jji666 I like the conversation. The only thing I'd add is many of us advocating simply experiential learning and/or enjoyment, not advocating for a certain product or scheme. The idea is simply try it, you may or may not like result, that's perfectly ok. The ideas being propagated here aren't costly or meant to extract money from people, so whats the major harms being done here. Even in cases where individuals promote costly products, I leave it to individuals to provide due diligence in making their choices, plenty of opinions out there, they have free will to choose, doesn't bother me they choose different path, product from me. Whether I believe it waste of money is of no consequence.

Question is why do the experiential learners HAVE to provide evidence/proof for what we hear. We're not advocating for some overarching truth, only providing experiential evidence of what given product/scheme brings to table. We aren't necessarily playing by KNOWN scientific/measurement rules, perhaps the proofs will follow the observations at some later point in time. This is certainly the case with much of scientific inquiry. Many of us are not scientists nor pose as one, we simply want to enjoy high quality sound from our audio systems, its for others to provide the evidence, and again that may not be available in present. Is this reason for us NOT to experiment and/or enjoy what we hear. Are you guys here to tell me I shouldn't enjoy or believe what I'm hearing because I can't provide scientific evidence for why I hear what I hear? Nah, I think I'll just enjoy what I'm hearing from my tweaked and tuned system, performers flying in and/or resurrected from dead to play in my room, WOW!

I can’t argue with the theory of the electrical noise but wouldn’t, logically, a well designed streamer endpoint or DAC be able to defeat/reject that without the tweaks?

Mostly, it seems to me, there is a lot of analog style logic applied to digital.  

Here is my theory that squares things with the network packet objectivists.

The upstream network gear has various high frequency oscillators and pcb design approach that creates noise that rides down the chain via ground, shielding and skin effect from component to component. This noise does not effect data packet transfer, ERC or any of the things the trolls are continuously ranting about.

But that noise will negatively effect the DAC and it’s analog output stage.

This explains why doing things like fibre conversion has such great reported results, because it breaks this noise chain. Also explains why LPS or proper power supply design in custom exotic switches result in sound quality gains at the end of the chain. Again, nothing here is contradicting the network data packet transfer operation, it works fine beneath these other issues. 

@agirard

I appreciate your kind words. I completely agree with what you stated, while we may disagree with other’s opinions; we have an opportunity to learn and grow from others experiences. Keeping an open mind is the key to amazing discoveries!