What do you think of the current market for used speakers above the $6,000 price point? It seems to me like the market is soft, really soft, since I keep seeing the same speakers posted for sale over and over again by the same seller. And these are top flight speakers from solid manufacturers such as Focal, B&W, Rockport, Sonus Faber, etc. Does this mean the number of audiophiles and audio enthusiasts is on the wane, or is there just a glut of used speakers for sale out there?
@tinear123 I share your feelings. In my upper mid 60s, and having a grown son and grandchildren who don't particularly share my love for HEA. My son is a builder, a doer and an avid outdoors-man and has little interest in setting still long enough to listen to stationary music and my grandson's idea of fine music is earbuds hooked to an I phone - I doubt there will be much interest in inheriting a nice audio system. Myself and wife (like many others) have other, somewhat expensive, interests and activities, i.e. motorcycles, boats, etc, etc, to share expenditures on and I sometimes question my own good sense in spending more and more $ on audio gear. When I see the ridicules prices posted on much of the, both new and used, HEA gear, I gotta wonder where it's all going to end.....Jim
Really interesting conversation. I was in collage when the HEA bloomed in the late 80's and have been in and out of the hobby multiple times as my priorities & residences have changed over the years. I have found myself lately building a new lower middle class system PSA BHK front end & DAC with Klipsch La Scala Heritage back end. Yes I'm working on the Amp equation at present BUT the point is that each & every day I ask myself why I am doing this, and is this a sane use of money? Who will want it when I'm gone (55 at present) and why am I not just buying a good pair of headphones 5-7% of the system cost that the kids might actually want some day.
I travel a lot for my work and have lived in Asia and Central EU for a number of years. The paradigm of "status stuff at home" or even the "status home" is quickly going where EU went 20 years ago. There you as an individual are "your brand" inclusive of how you dress and accessorize not the homestead. Speed, Mobility, and group fun are the drivers not listening sessions. Migration from "stuff" to "shared experiences" may be my best shot at description with my limited engineering vocabulary.
As an aging audiophile, who over the years, has been more interested in building a well thought and cost coherent system that could produce an engaging performance, rather than spending ridiculous amounts of $$$ buying expensive gear to make other expensive gear sound listenable. After moving into a smaller space, I downsized from my quads to (after many hours of auditioning) a set of small 2 way floor standing gems, whose big open detailed, but musical sound defied their reasonable cost. Recently, after moving back into a larger space, I decided maybe time to upgrade. One of the rather pricey ($12.5K) book shelf sized speakers on dedicated fancy stands, that I auditioned, had a great deal of hype regarding how detailed and spectacular they sound. At first I was impressed with their detailed and aggressive sound, but after about ten minuets of listening, at a quite moderate level, my head hurt and I thought my ears were going to bleed. I thought - Wow, if I just spend $10K or $20K on cables, $10K on a magic wall cord and another $30K or $40K on a better amp - maybe I could tame these speakers to sound something like music. Looking at the featured ads on A-gon and Audiomart and seeing most of the used speakers and electronics, listing for tens of thousands of $$$ - little wonder people are loosing interest....Jim
In continuation....so what does this have to do with speaker prices....everything. when I was ready to upgrade I went into the 10k-20k speaker price range. i narrowed it down to Verity Parsifal’s, Ultima Salons, B&W 802d, Egglestonworks Andra’s, Vandersteen 5. Couldn’t get to hear them so I read and read. Then decided to do what I do when I buy cars - look at resale value...just in case. not that speakers deteriorate with miles like cars but man do prices deteriorate. Good for used buyer, bad for used seller. That made it clear to me that a purchase of new should be if not a lifetime buy, then at least a 10 year buy.
Please allow me to present a thought that may insult, but it’s my opinion. in the 50’s most radios had a single tone control where to one extreme gave you more bass/less treble and at the other extreme gave you less bass/more treble. Simple but limiting. Then came receivers with both bass and treble, easy for anyone to make a very gross adjustment according to their likings. The super receivers of the late 70’s all upped it by also having midrange controls and then came the 10-16 step equalizers. All of this to allow the user to contour the sound according to their taste and room. When the majority of what I read now is people and dealers using assorted components for the same task of adjusting tone it insults my intelligence. I don’t mean to say that cables and interconnects don’t have slight colorations, and certainly different amps will sound differently. I do mean to say that the job of a cable and interconnect is to pass information along and not act as the tone control. But when I read that people are not happy with a particular speaker because it’s too bright or doesn’t have the bass slam they want and they go and start changing components to achieve adjustments it just seems to me as bad logic. Very expensive bad logic. Yes, I know there are people who think tone controls (even volume controls) are a bane to good quality sound...probably technically true..but still the alternative of swapping components bothers me. i have done it...I have 6 sets of speaker cables, 4 sets of interconnects, 4 amplifiers, 5 sets of stereo speakers, 2 sets of home theater speakers, etc.......
in the past each addition was done to go a step higher in the quality of sound ladder (some were higher, most achieved a sideways result, all were Higher cost than the item it replaced). now resigned to the fact that this path has no end, I look at them as if they were a collection of classic cars...all to be enjoyed for their different flavors.
I remember the used market being a cheap, nominal listing fee and being able to find almost anything one wanted in a short time period. Used market prices were stable. Now is there is next to nothing, and ads are commonly filled with items with frustratingly high asking prices. And those ads sit there for a long time. Maybe sellers, which are largely professional, are waiting for a break in sanity of weak willed buyer. I don't know. I am writing this because I just saw an item at a reasonable price. I was interested until it was described as partially broken. Ugh. When something reasonable does come along, one has to be prepared to act fast.
Great post , Bob .At 80+ I have found that wisdom does come with age, but it knocks at the door and most do what they have always done , refuse to open the door .
As someone whose profession (horticulture), has taken a beating over the past few decades(Namely, people who want their homes to be attractive and don’t care about price), I think the same can be said about high end Audio. Like many things, it goes in cycles, and when the younger generations get older, their priorities change. So, instead of spending $2K at Jean George’s, they might just want their homes to reflect more of themselves. Sure, it’s wishful thinking, but the sad part is I am probably not going to live long enough to see it happen. And, given the current state of our country, maybe I shouldn't get too worked up. Bob
Audio eye candy and audio listening are two distinctly different hobbies and professions. It's easy to tell the difference. One looks like a showcase display and the other looks like electrical, mechanical and acoustical tools. The eye candy guy talks about audio systems in terms of dollars, the audio listener talks about audio in terms of tuning.
Typically the eye candy guy has never gone beyond component plug & play. They haven't quite got to the point where they use their system as a variable tool to play the music. The connection between "all recordings have a different code" and require a variable playback solution vs a set (fixed) one sound system has not been made a reality for them.
The HEA hobby started to make the next step but then stalled. That's when the audio listener departed from the scene. The internet has made it possible for a reconnect, but a lot of folks are still in that "fixed" mentality.
I believe the quest for the “Best” sound has gotten to a point where the marginal cost versus the marginal gain from the next level up is rather small.
High quality sound can be achieved today without being a millionaire. That is especially true when factoring in the used market.
The market has split with far more home theaters being built than audiophile 2 channel systems. I am a dinosaur and prefer great 2 channel sound.
I liken sound systems that cost the price of a house as analogous to the guy who buys a Million dollar car. You are not buying transportation at that point, and the same is true for music.
my take is the companies making $80,000 speakers, amps, etc. will never make money on them in the long run, but having a “Flagship” product is more an exercise in advertising and also letting the engineers have some fun.
"Those people buy new, some of them are even audiophiles."
I don’t see these guys showing up at the HEA trade shows do you?
I might be way off target but I don’t see the market the way some here are describing it at all. Let me give an example.
2 years ago we were approached by a HEA rep who wanted to push our products (happens often nothin new). My first question was "where’s your website" he didn’t have one. Next I asked how much did he sale at his last show of another product he carried? He bragged $47,000.00. I come to find out that the company he was talking about sold zero $$$$ at that show. The hype projected in HEA right now is desperate at best.
here’s another example
Talked with a designer (well known) about his price increases over the last few years. We asked "is the product better" to which he answered "nope, I’m selling 1/10 the product I did a couple of years ago".
What I’m saying is, the market has changed and the people who did buy $$$,$$$.00 are not being fooled anymore. 5k for an amp folks could deal with, 10k they even bought into it. But when the price and size race took off, and when you only got a volume control, the fate was sealed. Millionaires are rich, they’re not stupid. They’re not buying into a C Class selling for $40,000.00 jumping over night to $400,000.00. Not happening with Mercedes and for sure isn’t happening with HEA once reality sets in. Reality is setting in.
Audiophiles are fine, HEA?, is in the middle of redefining itself.
Yup. It's increasingly easy to make money if you already have a lot of it, virtually no effort. Those people buy new, some of them are even audiophiles. It's mafia syndicate capitalism. Happy listening, as some here say.
The 3 speaker pairs that i've owned for 15-20 years, and still love, have 10", 12" and 15" woofers. I have tried several times to replace them with more modern designs with 6.5", 7", and 8" pairs of woofers... you know, the slender tower type, and they have all left me unsatisfied. All very good speakers, with great detail & imaging.... but I never really fell for them. I guess I just can't buy into a full range speaker with small woofers! My guess is that many people are unsatisfied with modern "good looking, decor friendly" speakers, but they just don't know why.
What a myopic point of view. We regret the geniuses of the past, and their passing. But there are new ones on the rise. There are commercial people who know what current markets are. HEA is still there because there are more millionaires in this world than ever. More billionaires than ever. They cover the high end and middle markets just on their own.
There is a bigger market than contributors and readers on Audiogon.
I hope folks don’t mind me sharing my views on these forums. They can come off alarming I know, but my posts here are based in reality not fiction.
The 80’s and 90’s we spent our time as insiders recruiting young and middle aged listeners into this wonderful hobby. HEA up till the mid-90’s fit. The hobby was still pure in many ways bringing in fresh designers who were sound driven more than money. The CES was the mother of shows and then the other shows were the regional spin offs supporting the CES. The main floor of the CES today, is young an full of innovation, teamed up with a mature foundation. Electronics now are performance based with affordability and practicality in mind. Today’s electronics aren’t here to replace the room, but to use it as part of the equation.
The now generation looks at equipment stacked against a wall quite differently vs the guys trying to impress by saying how much their system cost them. Now, hobbyist using a dollar amount to describe their system means nothing. Look at the posts here using a dollar figure to describe their sound instead of sound itself describing the sound. Those statements hold no appeal for the guy or gal walking around the CES main floor. HEA has isolated itself for 20 some years now, not being the leader any more, and not even being a competitor in smart systems.
Smart audio is about using the environment as the medium, not sitting there looking at components as if they can do something magical. Are you following me yet? Saying "my system cost $250,000.00" is yesteryear. It registers a zero for a 25 year old music lover looking to be inside of a soundstage. Listeners now are looking to the experience not a component chassis. Most of them don’t know what a radioshack RTA even is. Today’s listener is beyond home brew bench testing, or home brew "experts" looking at numbers to explain their distortion levels. Some of the new listeners reading this post right now are going to be getting ahold of me, simply for the reason that I’m talking about now. And, that’s not going to change or suddenly flip back to some old school belief in expensive chassis. Remember the days when there was a radioshack or 2 in every town along with a couple of stereo stores? There’s a reason they are no longer there. There's a reason HEA is no longer on the main floor of the CES.
@jacksky I attended both AXPONA and RMAF this year, and I would agree that the majority of attendees appeared to be 60+. At RMAF, I did run into a good number of guys who were 40-ish and seemed to have an ample supply of money to own such speakers as Sonus Faber Stradivari. But their frequency of such purchases is not very high. Man, I would sure hate to be a dealer trying to sell high end in this market.
Orpheus, i disagee. The problem is not that economic conditions are holding people back from buying 6k speakers. i went to the NY audio show in November, majority of people walking around were 60+ , very depressing. Compare that to when I was young hanging out in Crazy Eddiie’s original store, a bunch of doctors and dentists and young Wall Street types getting “salesjobbed” laying down serious money. the money hasn’t disappeared, the interest has. on another note, speakers shouldn’t depreciate like cars. My Andra I’s shouldn’t be worth 20% of what the Andra III’s cost. I just don’t think there is an 80% improvement in the sound.
Michael, I find your post very interesting; while the ages are true, I disagree about how that affects the market. The older a person gets, the less active he becomes; few live concerts, no trips to the museum or a host of other trips that were made with glee (my cameras are just gathering dust); Consequently, "high end audio" is the biggest enjoyment for an aging audiophile.
Evidently, you and many others have no problem in affording this expensive hobby, and don't realize that has become a problem for an "abnormal" number of people.
Once a person reaps the benefit of a perfect holographic soundstage, he's hooked for the rest of his life. (you gave the reason I didn't engage in that soundstage thread; it took me years to get the one I have)
This is what you stated; "Used speaker market above 6k? I would imagine there are stock piles upon stock piles. I would even imagine it won't be long before you can't give them away."
If that is true, it's because the economic situation of the masses has changed more than we are led to believe, not because there is no market for those speakers. If the economic situation of all the older audiophiles on a fixed income changed, those speakers would be swept up in an instant.
In fact, $6k for excellent speakers is not much if you keep them for a long time. We pay more for cell phones and cable. I personally am just not in the mood to finance audiophile purchases, and credit card rates are not good. I do think that audiophile pool, perhaps outside Michael's flock or herd, whichever he prefers, has been shrinking. My question was rhetorical - nothing is big these days.
Most audiophiles have left the building and are enjoying their music collections not feeding their equipment closets anymore. J Gordon is gone and so is Harry. Dave is gone and the others are in their 70's and 80's. The discrete HEA equipment era is winding down and we shouldn't be surprised, or sad about it.
Raise your hands, how many of you still want to go out and spend 40-100k on something that is obsolete? I'm not asking what you did spend, I'm asking, going to spend?
It's like being in the store past closing and the announcements are coming over the PA "please finish making your selections and bring them to the counter". Then there's the guys still trying to sell 80 pound toaster ovens to folks looking at the latest and more efficient cookers.
Look around guys. There are threads on here talking about if one thinks a soundstage is important, and guess what, most are answering as if they've never been able to create a stage. That same guy is going to once again spend the big bucks one more time? I don't think so. Seeing that wall of components in ones living room doesn't hold the same status as it did. Again the serious audiophile for the most part has either left the building or gotten serious about their sound.
Used speaker market above 6k? I would imagine there are stock piles upon stock piles. I would even imagine it won't be long before you can't give them away.
I think 7K for a pair of used 20.7 Maggies is about right.
As to those who complain about used value, I bought a pair of McIntosh MC501 amps used 0 years ago for 6K, could sell tjem tomorrow for the same money.
It is all about choices.
FYI, I would buy the 20.7s, but am down sizing to a smaller home. And yes, the 10.7 was a typo in my earlier post.
Only those who care little about money can afford to buy something that loses equity at such a massive rate as high end audio. Thus not much interest in heavily discounted but still greatly over priced high end kit. Today most are cash strapped and 1000s in easily spent income is just not available. I have friends who sell motorcycles they say the market for anything over 4k is near gone and most want 1500-2500 used MC. With used audio I notice the same under 3k might sell over good luck.
IMO the demographics for high end goods is not promising. As an avid reader of Audiogon I get the distinct impression the majority of participants are retirees. I don’t see the generations following ours as buyers of 5 foot towers or 70 lb monoblocks. When I entered the market over 50 years ago everything was big, now the opposite is true. An idle thought.
The lust for high end audio will never cease; when compared to "mid fi", it's no contest. On the used market, high end audio is well priced, but many people who are lusting for the equipment, just do not have the money, but the sellers are not going to give it away.
@tomic601 they were model 5s Probably retail was between $10.5 and $14K depending on the year. So the $6K asking price may have been a little high or on target. For my personal tastes, I don’t want a high end speaker (I am guessing they would be considered high end in most peoples opinion), that was altered in anyway. There is a pair of 5A’s for sale now and the guy grounded down the sub-woofer power amp so that he could get a larger AC plug in there. That's not what I want even for the price. Just Saying.
price is too high...thats why nobody buying...most of the prices I see can be gotten at a dealer...so my guess is that dealers hoping they get a customer that isnt close to a dealer.
@bdp24 The high gloss painted 5a ?... those took awhile.... maybe they were 5’s ? the “modified” 5 a with the hacksaw fins on the sub amp scared me more...
However, things are good for poor audiophiles and music lovers. There are decent sounding used $1k speakers and integrated amps and $200 cables. Yes, Western middle class has been creating Asian one while disappearing in the process. This sacrifice and stupidity will not go down in history unnoticed, my audiophile comrades.
Folks, I fully understand that brick and mortar stores create value by having the skill to integrate components that create system synergy and great sound. I also value their skill to work on turntables and other tricky gear. But, with margins approaching 50% on high end gear, I question if the store provides me with $20,000 added value (at a minimum) on a $50,000 pair of speakers. You look, you hook them up to the right gear, and you listen. If you're lucky, it sounds good at home.
On the used side, dealers take a lot of gear on consignment, thereby creating a near zero cost of goods sold (other than the previously mentioned lights and staff). There can be quite a spread between what the original seller gets and the new owner pays. That spread goes to the dealer.
If I were younger, and the market were growing, I would get into this business, and run it a lot like Reno HiFi does; in home demos at no cost (other than shipping) and great customer service. I would have a modest or virtual storefront. The days of inventory heavy stores in affluent urban areas are numbered, for sure. Good thing I am getting old, and my gear is pretty new...
A few Asian nations have a growing middle class, e.g., the PRC, but it has disappeared in the USA. And it's definitely a factor in the decline of hi-fi audio, and high quality life in general.
This happened some time ago; when the commodity markets were being manipulated by the oligarchs, and your very own government. That's when food and gas was much higher than they should have been. Your government stopped the CFTC from intervening on this chicanery.
When this occurred, the people in the upper middle class could afford to pay the freight so they didn't care. Now the people a rung or two below them, can not buy what they are selling. It's not that they don't want to, but they can't.
The same appears to be with electronics, nobody buys nothing. People with cash buy new, others either don't buy at all or buy something less expensive. Middle class is gone.
@d2girls: A bit of reality and perspective on the "fat margins" you think dealers make.
No.
Evidently you have never seen the price sheets that come with the "exclusive" brands you wish to carry and the T's & C's that come with these brands. High-end gear has very low margins compared to inexpensive gear. SONY, you remember them, permitted a 21% mark-up in the day--not sure what it is now. If you understand anything about the business, you know that keeping the lights on costs about 21%. SO, if you get a 2% credit by paying within 15 days, you still have to add freight to your costs. Let's not think about co-op advertising and other things that seem to creep into your "outflow" like workman's comp and insurance and truck payments and insurance and so forth.
I lost money on every piece of Sony I ever sold, but had to stock it as it was quite popular at the time. Today, large some TV sets have a bit of margin, but when a 65" set is $499, how much do you think is left for the average retailer? And that's the cheap stuff.
A pre-amp I sold for $595 cost me 420.00+. Speakers that sold for 800/pair (Fair Traded in those days) cost me 660.00+. Not sure where you get your ideas, and I would guess some manufacturers are dumb enough to charge retailers huge mark-ups on their gear, but cheap gear neither performs nor lasts like so-called "high-end" gear. As for R&D, let's just say that different "high-end" manufacturers approach that little task differently and leave it at that.
So, I am sure that a cartridge might sell for something stupid like $1200 and cost the dealer $600+, but how many do they sell? Let's say 4/month--maybe in NYC or LA or SF, so the dealer grosses $30,000 a year on cartridges. The rent is at least twice that if not 4 times, and I very much doubt any dealer sells one $1200 cartridge a week. Add to that the floor inventory+stock and the average high-end dealer has 250,000 to 500,000 invested before the doors open. That's a lot of cartridges...and high-end gear with 30-35% markup is about average. You have to sell LOTS of stuff to make any money in the high-end regardless of what you "think" it is.
Dealers you want to stay around in brick-and-mortar stores to provide the service you want when you spend big bucks on a system need to make a decent profit or they are gone and you are left complaining. I wish dealers made 50%; they would be happier people, I promise!
I was just looking through the Classifieds here and saw some great deals on speakers over 6K. I almost wish I was in the market instead of finished with my Audio buying as there are some mighty tempting speakers listed.
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