2. amps-preamps
  3. 126624-10101

My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:

Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005

With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:

ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)

NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)

Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)

rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)

cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)

parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)

lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)

McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.

butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)

pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.

classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)

Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:



PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.

Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.

Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?

Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.

 It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.

Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.

Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.

Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.

Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.

Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.

My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.

That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!


128x128jays_audio_lab
20,890 responses 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Long gone 
twoleftears's avatar
twoleftears
5,318 posts
 
Oh! The vicarious anticipation!
mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
WC, wow, a 2 year old. I feel like I am old enough to be your dad ( I am sure I am ). Anyway, my doctor son grew up in a household with music always playing, and a constant plethora of audio equipment coming and going. To this day, he has zero interest in high end audio for his home, but makes a big deal over it when he visits me and listens here, as well as his factory sound system in his Benz. My sister, too. She is into music as much as I am, as my dad got us both hooked at a very early age. She listens in her car, on her phone, on her tabletop Bose unit, and is very happy. On another thread here, we spoke about the nuances in recordings a higher end system brings forth to our ears, creating a more emotional connection to the music. With this greater intelligibility of the recorded information, it is realized why some of us have the systems we do. WC, it is all about the music. Keep on truck’in. Enjoy ! MrD.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
lemonhaze,
You make valid points about how important everything in the phono chain is.  I am nearly as old as Mike Fremer and my extensive experience is consistent with his.  I had a Linn table with Alphason arm with my Denon 305 cartridge.  Nothing that expensive but great performance.  I then transferred the arm/cartridge to a SOTA (that's the brand name) table.  Then the sound became heavy, like lead, mushy and slow.  The Denon 305 was a fast, dry cartridge that was big in HF excitement and light in the bass.  So the sound was dominated by the SOTA table with its soft wooden plinth that made the sound heavy.  I recovered the exciting sound by going back to the Linn.  When I got the Goldmund Studio TT, its sound with the same arm/cartridge was more focused, but not as changed as when trying other cartridges.  Both Linn and Goldman are excellent tables, so at that level the cartridge takes on more importance.  I think Fremer was admitting that his $200,000 TT/arm didn't produce a life changing improvement like getting his choice cartridge.  In a later review, he praised the $6500 Rega 10 TT/arm plus $5000 Aphelion cartridge for its fast brilliant sound.  I might prefer the $2000 Apheta 2 cartridge.  Of course, the compliance of the cartridge has to be matched to the mass of the arm.  Think of the cartridge as a transducer like a speaker, which is more critical a factor than the electronics.  The best arm/TT may be considered like the invisible fingers of God spinning the TT and holding the cartridge in place.  The arm/TT is merely supportive of the cartridge which really produces the sound. 

By the way, to accuse me of just regurgitating old statements, is to not understand my musical expertise, both as an accomplished musician and experienced audiophile.  Please show the proper respect, thank you.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
I agree that the Momentum Integrated probably sounds better with more accuracy that the ARC Ref 10 plus Progression Monos.  The main reason is that the ARC is still tubey and sweetens the sound a bit even though you like that.  Dag is SS all the way with some but less, tendency to sweetness, according to some people.  Another factor is the general concept of integrated amps enabling you to eliminate interconnects which color the sound.  The best approach would be to get the passive Luminous for under $1000 or so, and plug into the power amp.  If the power amp has gain over 30 dB, the passive preamp would give as much volume as you would need for lots of music.  The Dags tend to have lower gain of 26 dB, so for some music you can still enjoy the pure sound of the Luminous, according to the experience of mrdecibel.  He and I agree that there is no active preamp that approaches the clarity of a passive. One of the models of Music First passive preamps has a switch for an extra 6 dB of gain.  I don't know how they do it, but I didn't hear any difference with or without the switches' 6 dB of gain.

By the way, your journey is not a one way street without freedom of U-turns.  It is all a moving target.  One day you will decide that you love the Avantgarde Trio horn speaker, and then you will want a low power amp with the purest sound, for example.  Only upon death is there no U-turn.  Keep your health, lose weight so that final event is FAR away.  Best wishes.
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riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

I am the Great and Powerful Oz.

 I COMMAND you to listen to the sub $5000 gear I recommend otherwise I will endlessly bash you over the head with my expertise, wisdom, experience and washed up 65 year old Ears until the End of Days. I am the Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the TRUTH. Kneel Before me you unworthy, ungrateful SWINE and behold greatness the likes of which you have never seen. If I put my mind to it I could even cure Cancer all by myself...but I rather idle away my days plucking the poetic strings on the Violin I got from my local NYC Pawn Shop for $50. Its better than any Stradivarius I ever heard and Ive heard them all in the past 55 years. Dont tell me any different you young WHIPPERSNAPPERS. As a side note... I can walk on water too

mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
Viber6, I never stated the Luminous is better than every preamp, as my preamps were only in the 6K and under range ( not that this means anything ), although I have heard higher priced units. Never heard the particular ARC preamp WC owns. I am extremely pleased with my Luminous unit, and cannot imagine an additional line stage being better, for me, and my system. A poster commented on my Dac, saying I am not getting all of the information on the recordings, which I disagree. My system just works well with passive. I have been at this long enough to know, why folks like tubes, do not like horns, prefer vinyl, etc. I still believe WC will not be happy with his new equipment, long term. He will know there is better out there, and he is on a mission. I have heard the AG trio on many occasions, and thought many times they were not at all coherent. Other times, they were amazing. There are some great horn hybrids I have listened to, but still prefer my Lascalas. Considering my Lascalas can fill an auditorium, eliminated all of their nasties, and supplementing the last octave with a pair of subs, I could not be happier. Enjoy ! MrD.
mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
riaa, LMAO, Enjoy ! MrD.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
i have not said that i don't want horns. i have been told that horns are the way to go and it will be over. I am simply saying that if i don't like it, i will have a hard time selling it to move forward. I have been advised against buying horns if my journey is to keep going. Why? well because their 1800 aesthetics will be a problem for many. 
hell i asked myself just now, WHY did i buy the momentum integrated if i am having doubts about it properly handling my new speakers? 
i bought it because my good connection worked out a deal plus took a few of my pieces on trade AND i know this was the quickest and easiest way for me to begin exploring the Dag momentum house sound. 
I have NEVER EVER heard it. Have zero clue as to what it sounds like and i have been itching to try it. Sure, i would have preferred some m400s, but if those don't show up then the integrated will give me the full taste of the amp/preamp synergy even though it may not be at the full scale of the m400, but it should give me most of the sound signature. 
Lastly, yes the momentum integrated sells rather easy. Each time one lists, it is gone in a few days. This tells me that i should have no issue selling it if i find that it can't properly handle my new speakers. However, i REALLY doubt that because NOTHING that Dag has ever built under his new line has ever had issues driving any speaker. His designs are solid and built with Balls to drive anything out there. 
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
Dan D’Agostino is like a hero to some of us. Me for sure, am one of those fans.

Amplifiers he has built have to be some of the best when it comes to supplying enough "Current". The power reserves are legendary in his designs. Most of my younger years had me wanting to sleep with a Krell amplifier. Mark Levinson, Threshold, Jeff Roland were the other choices, but the Krell amps were the MAC DADDY of them all. I bought a beautiful Mark Levinson No.331. It looked so nice in my stack. But I sold it due to the way it sounded in my system. It was totally recapped too. Just didn't have the vocals right. A veil, as some would say was all over male and female vocals. I switched it out back to my Krell KST-100, and viola, the sound was just superb Class A vocals sounding realistic enough for a "you are there" type of sound. Sold the darn beautiful Mark Levinson, and bought a more powerful Krell KSA-200s. The lively sound and perfect vocals continued with the newly recapped Krell KSA-200s, just as with the smaller Krell KST-100. Then I bought even another Krell..... Krell KSA-250. That was the most powerful FULL TIME Class A amp that was the model before my changing bias KSA-200s. Why did I buy a third Krell? To kind of have a collection of what Dan has built in the past.

Now lets go to present time....
Dan D’Agostino is back making amplifiers that are competing with the best out there. And what does he do.... makes the Momentum Series look like Rolex Watches. And that copper milled side! OMG. The sound to some, is the best that they have heard with their system. Is any of this overkill? Hell no. The integrated D'ag weight is 120lbs. The look of it is like nothing else. It is like having a piece of history to own one of these Momentums.


As you can see..... I am jealous of WCSS. And I hope that the integrated puts out enough power for him to enjoy these new secret speakers. Keep on riding this wave.... You'll know when you get what you are looking for.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Bigdesign3: nice write up. I like your perception of Dan. That said, it’s very scary buying a unit that only puts out 200 watts per channel. Why? Well because you wonder if it can push a speaker with 87db sensitivity. You wonder if it can move those power hungry speakers. However, the fact that this piece is his design is indeed what keeps me more at ease. I did hear from a few people that it drove their Wilson Alexia really easy without issues.
That said, it appears that nobody who currently reads my thread has hands on experience with it. 
jafant's avatar
jafant
19,637 posts
 
whitecamaross
Do not worry about the 200 wpc rating. Concentrate on the amount of current (A)  that this model provides.  Happy Listening!
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
I’ve been trying to locate that current measurement. The voltage is about 42a I think. 
techno_dude
382 posts
 
Dag amps. Submarine proof casings, transistor overpopulated  and over beefed power supplies. The amp sent to Stereophile had a meltdown during the tests...

CHORD has mastered the art of power supplies for real reliable high power. Modern prooven technology.

WC, are you feeling well  , this is absolutely not you making decisions in the dark.


jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Problem with Chord is that you will need to probably sit on it for a very long time before someone wants it.
Yes I am ok. I am just hoping this thing can drive the new speakers. 
I will know soon enough. 
techno_dude
382 posts
 
Are you sure of this about Dag resales. Me thinks Chord is better known overall , cost less. So it should resale easier.
mrdecibel
3,063 posts
 
I have read every review I could on the Momentum integrated. Pretty unanimous on what has been said : "The best they had in their listening room ". Enjoy ! MrD.
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
@techno dude
I'm not sure why you are ragging on this guy. Dan has built some of the most sophisticated power supplies that I have known to allow for proper current delivery for every note of music played in a song. And protections that stop bad things from happening.


Sure. Even a Porsche can have a glitch. They had to recall all the GT3s one year to fix it. Does that make Porsche not the best drivers car out there. Please.
The amount of build in Dan's amplifiers allow for a musical presentation that does not rely on the AC coming in from the cord as much as many other designs. Having designed some wire melting car stereos in my life..... I know why Dan put the power into these designs.

The reviews are in...... Dan's amps sound as good or better than almost anything else with some of the best speakers out there. Give us all some schooling how Chord and their electronic designs are better than others.

My next system will consist of B&W speakers with Chord Electronics (Laugh). Too bright!
DCS, MSB and a whole bunch of other DACs also are playing a part of the whole change of analog to digital. None of them are using ESS Sabre chips. Talk about power supplies.... how has Chord taken the prize of top design? Whaaat? I am not one to knock companies for the products they sell. But to say that Krell and now Dan D'agostino have parts that are too much...... oh no.
dasign's avatar
dasign
201 posts
 
WC do not worry about your Krell not being in position to correctly feed your upcoming speakers with 87 db sensitivity. I had the Krell FPB-200 CX stereo amp feeding my refurbished Apogee Duetta Signature ribbon speakers which have a 86 db sensitivity. Never felt that my speakers needed more power. The Krell drove those babies without a sweat.

Do not forget that the Krell and probably the D’agostino have more power/current available than published in their specification sheet. 
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Ag insider logo xs@2x
greginnh
382 posts
 
@riaa - thanks for the laugh!
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Techno: so I get your point. Nobody wants to buy a Range Rover and be at the dealer constantly with electrical issues. It defeats the purpose of having such a nice car. However, I’ve never heard of a momentun catching fire or just having issues. Hell I want a ranger roger myself but their reliability has been exposed multiple times and it’s a car you don’t buy without warranty.
I want to say that the reliability conversation really doesn’t apply to anything that agostino has had his hands on. I’ve never had a Krell amp fail me that I can recall and the momentum stuff is supposed to bring things to a whole other level in terms of construction.
The truth is Amps hardly go bad because there are no moving parts. I think the only amp I had issues with was an emotiva amp (go figure). Everything else has been pretty solid for me. I also keep in touch with most people who’ve bought from me and they haven’t had any issues.
Actually, I do recall 2 issues but they were with tube amps and the issues seemed to be tube related so 3 amps out of 300+ amps which is less than 1%. That’s really nothing... 
4425
861 posts
 
For what it’s worth my D’Agostino S250 driving Wilson Yvette’s has the slightest of meter movement when playing at a reasonable level. This seems to indicate as I’ve always believed that we need far less watts than we think. I have a pretty large room and occasionally juice it up with very slightly more meter movement. Trust me, it’s got mojo and damn beautiful to behold as it should be given the price. I don’t have any idea how he gets such a heavy transformer in this unit. It’s 100lbs of dead wgt in a smallish pkg.
Last thing. Yvette’s spec’d at 86db and 4ohms.
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riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
981 posts
 

GreginNH,

Sadly the moderators dont agree with you :) Hope your still lovin the 300/Blade Combo. BILLION$BABY

abizzle55
10 posts
 
Hi all, first time poster from UK. What a fascinatingly detailed thread. Bravo whitecamaross!

As here in the UK we are a bit behind in the Audiophile/HT area, I’m having to follow and research audiophile gear from American websites mainly.

I am looking to you guys for some guidance and with all the experience on this thread, I’m pretty sure I’m in safe hands.

A bit of background to set the scene. About 5 years ago I got the bug and ended up carefully cherry picking my setup for 60% HT 40% Music listening. Initially this is what I ended up with, sourced from USA, Belgium, Singapore, as this equipment wasn’t available in the UK:

Anthem D2v
Halcro MC50
Paradigm Signature Reference S8 v3
Paradigm Signature Reference C3 v3
Paradigm Signature Reference ADP v3
Paradigm Sub 2

I was over the moon with my purchase, but about a year ago, for certain reasons, sold the Halcro MC50 and the Sub 2.

Now I have the itch again and want to get my system back up and running.

I have been given the opportunity to purchase an EAD PM8300 (20amp version) to add to the above at around $1300. It's the 8 channel version. Is it worth it for a 10 year old amp?

With no mainstream reviews and hardly many user reviews, I wanted your feedback on this amp please.

Is it better than the Halcro MC50?
Will it take my system to the next level? Seeing the D2v and Paradigms are very revealing, will it make for a good combo , in terms of soundstage, seperation, detailed highs and 3D effect for movies, excellent bass from S8 as do not have a sub anymore? Also it’s rated at 300wpc, whilst my speakers can take 250w continuous, would it be a good idea to biamp the LCR?

Whitecamaross, have you come across the EAD PM8300/2000 and what is your verdict on the amp compared to the Pass Labs or the Pilinius Odeon?

Where would it sit in your list of best amps?

As you can appreciate amps like this are rare to come around, especially in the UK. Therefore I need help to make the right decision.

If others have any experience, I would appreciate your insight as well. Thanks and much appreciated.
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Hi Abyzz,
Welcome to the thread. Unfortunately I’ve never tried those brands you are asking about. I can say to you that I’ve good things about halcro but never owned it. For home theater, I think class d amps are the way to go and ATI has a 8 channel amp that is good for what you need while being relatively cheap. That would probably be my go to amp if I was building a home theater set up. 

Post removed 
viber6
2,448 posts
 
mrdecibel,
What were the problems with the stock Klipsch La Scala, and what modifcations did you make?  What are your other favorite horn systems? Have they made any advances over the LaScala?  That AG trio I heard in a small room at a NY show seemed uncolored with superb HF extension.  The music was low in volume with voices and light instrumentation.  The superior quality of the system was obvious even at the low volume.  The 100 dB or more efficiency of horns enables use of a passive preamp for all types of music, a big advantage, although I still enjoy the ability to dispense with an additional line stage with my much less efficient speakers.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
bigddesign3,
There is no doubt that Krell/Dag amps have excellent power supplies, simply revealed by the specs that power output doubles into each half reduction of impedances down to 1 ohm.  Mathematically, this is equivalent to the current capability doubling at the same rate.  Very few other manufacturers live up to this standard.   Listening I have done reveals the power.  The only question is whether you like the chosen tonal balance and what is the level of resolution which is much harder to quantify, and that's why listening to it and anything else must be the ultimate deciding factor before purchase.
abizzle55
10 posts
 
Thanks whitecamaross. As with EAD, the ATI amps are very rare in the UK and my only option would be to buy from USA and use a Stepdown convertor, which may add its own noise.

The EAD have been said to be one of the best amps available out there for any price. I just wanted to confirm that was the case.

I also have been offered a cinepro 2k6 MkIII for less than $1000. Are these any good? Thanks
viber6
2,448 posts
 
WC,
I agree that Chord electronics take a longer time to sell than Dag, which is good old USA. Anything from overseas is higher risk. It better be a bargain to justify the risk. And yes, I think you made a good decision to get the Momentum Integrated, which will give you the essential Dag sound. If you find that it is a big improvement over your great BAT, you can go further with Dag. But remember, the ultimate goal is to see if the Rowland 925 can be beaten. It is in a similar price league to top Dags. When you heard the 925, you liked sweet, fatter sounding sound and speakers, but now with the Magico S5 and I suspect a higher Magico model soon, it is possible your tastes have changed a little, and that the Dag might have a more neutral sound than the Rowland. Will the Dag beat the 925 for resolution/clarity?  Also, you can go to shows to hear things like the Avantgarde Trio horns, to see whether they should be considered.  No need to take a totally blind approach just because you find great deals and hoped-for ease of resale. I just have a hunch that these horns might be the best speaker choice for you, because their clarity is unmatched except for choice electrostatics, and the power/dynamics far exceeds any other dynamic speaker.
tommyu
41 posts
 
Hello WC,
Looking for your comments between 2 amps I doubt I will audition both and since you have owned both your comments may be helpful.

Torn between Pass X250.8 and Plinius SB-301, what do you thing the pros and cons between the two would be? or differences.

I'm using a very simple system no preamp just driving the amp with a Wadia s7i GNSC mod and the small Avalon Transcendants.

Even though I've read all I can find on the two amps and they seem fairly close from descriptions I would still appreciate your thoughts. Thanks
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Abizzle: yes, the cinepro is a solid amp. very good power and great current on those amps. You should be ok with something like that. 

Tommyu1: i am not quite familiar with your front end, but i did own both of the amps you have interest in buying. i think the Plinius sb301 mk2 is a great amp with lots of slam and dynamic, but it does not have the same quality of high frequencies that the 250.8 has. I find the 250.8 better with highs and mids, but it won't touch the Plinius on the lows. The bottom end on the Plinius sb301 mk2 was awesome and better than the plinius sa103. It really depends on what you are trying to do to your system. I personally never found pass labs as a brand known for the full bottom end. They were always somewhat flat sounding in the bass with the exception of the big boys like the xs150, xs300, 200.5. 
If it were me, it would take the pass labs 250.8. You can always fix the bass by adding a sub. Not much you can do to fix grainy highs. 
techno_dude
382 posts
 
One thing we should consider greatly. The Dag integrated will be eard on new speakers, so WC won’t be able to compare it to the best amps  he eard on Magico as there will be 2 new pieces in the  chain. His ears are now tuned to the  Magicos S5. On a newer better pair of speakers , a better overall sound in his room won’t mean the Dag integrated is the better amp, as it could just be that its the speakers that are plain superior.

But sure, he will be able to compare with the Gryphon Diablo. But we will never know how the Dag compares with the best ...Rowland 925 , Lux 900u, etc.
Post removed 
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Correct techno dude. Will the dag integrated best a Luxman combo ? Wouldn’t that be amazing to test and see? 
Get ready. My mágicos are in their crates as of 2 hours ago. I’m moving to a whole new tier group of speakers. we shall see what these will bring to the table. I already have 3 types of amplifacation waiting for them.
Hint: they will be about 7 feet apart from each other and one foot off the back and side wall and I’ll be about 8.5 feet away from them.
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
Hint: they will be about 7 feet apart from each other and one foot off the back and side wall and I’ll be about 8.5 feet away from them.



You describe the coordinates that are perfect for listening with many systems. I call this near-field listening. Depending on speaker, the amount of space from the back wall changes. But the 7 feet apart at you sitting 8.5 feet away is a great way to listen. Not all of us can move up the couch or chair, but if your serious about SOTA, near-field listening can bring out the best in your system IMHO. Looking foward to what these speakers are.

mikepaul's avatar
mikepaul
223 posts
 
Hhmmmmmm.  Doesn't sound like Logans...too close to back and side walls.

I don't know anything about their placement but i will warrant my guess for the heck of it:

======YG ACOUSTICS?

And if subs are involved with a smaller type of speaker then my guess would be:

====== (2) SVS PB16-Ultra Subwoofers------175 lbs each

DISCLAIMER: I am not an advocate of subs. I prefer to find a "full range" ,"complete" speaker which satisfies most of my listening requirements---- and do without the subterranean lows.

Hey,wait!  My brand new 15a's that i just traded in my 13a's for actually fulfill my requirements!

D'uh...lol
techno_dude
382 posts
 
Here, new power cord on the Lux 900u. Shunyata Delta NR. ( replacing a Cobra Zitron)

All I can say is wow 😮, crazy low noise floor. Details emerging from darkness. Huge bass. WC , you got to try one on you amps. Trust me on this. And this is just the entry level of the NR series !...

Still not quite the speed and attack of the Zitron Cobra, but you can’t have it all as they say... And it s not fully broken in yet.

( Zitron Cobra AC has to go , who wants to be new proud owner by p.m.)
gtaphile
74 posts
 
WC I hinted yesterday...   

Fenestria!  Interesting combo...indeed

Are you are finally considering the new flagship PMC?    
bigddesign3
237 posts
 
My last guess....Magico M3
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Wow. I just got the momentum integrated and I’ve never seen anything like it. Incredible how amazing this looks. 
I will be using some Sonus faber olympica 2s that I didn’t even know I had in the garage and see how this integrated compares to the gryphon. My new speakers won’t be here until probably early next week. 
mikepaul's avatar
mikepaul
223 posts
 
Hey, now that you mentioned it.

Let me check my garage. Maybe there's a 718 Cayman buried under some old clothes.  lol,

WC, I can't wait for your first impressions of the D'ag
techno_dude
382 posts
 
They build it to look incredible so that it plays with your mind thinking it sounds better...

I bet the Gryphon will eat it alive in sheer musicality, and highs refinement.
viber6
2,448 posts
 
Going by 86 dB efficiency, the Wilson Yvette fits that.  Electrostatics unlikely, because they do best at least 3 feet from the front wall.  I have heard the smaller YG speakers--superb for dynamic speakers.  I don't know the specs on YG, but they will seriously compete against Magico.  YG is revealing but smooth.  
jays_audio_lab's avatar
jays_audio_lab OP
5,381 posts
 
Techno: although I see where you come from with the perception that they build
it to play with your mind, it can’t fool so many people. I mean, I’ve not heard one bad thing about this piece. Not one by anyone. Maybe you are right and I find out that it can’t beat the Diablo. It is almost 3 times as expensive as the Diablo so yes it should beat it quite easily. My mind is telling me that the Diablo will beat it in regards to the bass but it won’t beat it when it comes to mids and highs. 
thezaks
712 posts
 
88db sensitivity for the II's, so it will start giving you an idea about how the integrated can handle things.

Dave
jimmy3993
141 posts
 
So I’m lurking around this thread using it as a vicarious test lab. I’d love to find an integrated that I could live with. Thx for all the work and time and money invested WCSS.
Now, can anyone point me to the general vicinity of the thread page where the transition was made from amps to integrateds...
and I guess I could always just wait and watch for wcss’s for sale posts. But I’m guessing I’m not the first to come up w that idea either am I?
thx again!
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