My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
What I like about this thread is I'm able to hear lots of gear through a single set of ears. Not my ears, maybe not by tastes, or even likes but I'm able to do +1, -1 from some other referenced piece I might have heard. Some folks I'm 180 from and so if they dislike something it might be right up my alley. Others I'm right in their shoes. Its been fun
Every time a new piece comes up, I start reading reviews and digging around. Hearing all the other thoughts along with WC's. Lots of this stuff is out of my pay grade, so an eye roll and off to the next.
I've learned tons listening, enough that I'm finalizing my amp/pre order in the morning and feel like I'm going be pretty happy in the end.
Thanks to WC for all the opinions and everyone else that shared along the way.
doitwithlife, I've got a treat for you, if your values are in line with mine. Don't finalize your order just yet. What are you considering? Also, read my posts about the Rane ME60 EQ, which is true value and in many cases eliminates the need and expenditure for a preamp. Anyone who is prejudiced against EQ just doesn't know what they are missing. The Rane cost $600 when I got it in 1995. Someone else mentioned the Manley Massive EQ, but it is expensive at over $5000, and reviews say that it softens the sound due to the tubes. The Rane is SS and pretty colorless. If you want a cost effective preamp that is probably the most neutral of anything out there, I talked about the Music First yesterday. I heard the model for about $5000, not the top of the line.
NOW FOR THE TREAT. I have been listening to the Mytek Brooklyn Amp, described in the latest Stereophile. I agree with most of the sonic impressions in that article, confirmed after about 100 hours of listening so far. I use a CD on repeat for about 15 hours per day. So far the sound hasn't shown significant changes with time, but the main variability is the powerline. The resolution and focus could change significantly on a moment's notice, even though it is plugged into the Shunyata Denali conditioner. The fact that the sound changes on a moment's notice makes me think that it is not related to breaking in, as guidocorona has described, but I could be wrong, and will have to see. After years of struggle and frustration with the tremendous variability of the sound from the wall and other power conditioners, I find that the Denali is the best unit of its kind. With my Bryston, the sound is NOT variable, and much more focused and clear with the Denali. The Denali is well worth the $4000 retail price. I am not sure whether I will keep the Mytek, since my little Bryston 2.5 B SST2 has the most extraordinary extended highs, but the Mytek is very even handed and revealing of all the freq ranges, instruments, etc. The top end is refined and extended, and I am hearing the clarity of the lower pitched instruments. I haven't tested the power output by listening to big orchestral pieces, etc, because if I have reservations about the tonal balance and clarity, I don't care about power. This unit I got from Music Direct used for $1600. I will make a decision in another month. If I return it, it will have several hundred hours of break in on it, and you or anyone will have the opportunity to get it cheap. If I keep it, then even the retail price of $2000 is a bargain for what you get. If you want neutrality, clarity and refinement, this Mytek Brooklyn Amp is hard to beat at nearly any price, and is certainly the best bang for the buck at its price.
Hi @Viber6, a raw comparison of the Merrill veritas monos and Mola Mola Kaluga versus the Rowland M925 monos would be misleading.
The former two amps were designed to serve markets between $12K and $17K, while M925 is essentially a complex implementation for the $55K+ market.
Even so, the three amps have much in common... And their common NCore NC1200 parentage emerges.... Telling is the even treatment of audible frequencies and their resistance to intermodulative artifacts. All of them are "sink in your seat and get lost in the music" amps, and in one form or another, they give you those barbules or bristles of exposed harmonics in acoustic instruments that I love so much. I should like to point out that I heard Mola Mola Kaluga only at RMAF... At the time the device seemed to show a little bit of excessive exhuberance in the treble... But apparently the unit had only 200 hours on it, which is woefully insufficient to complete break-in of an NC1200-based amp.
Veritas and Mola Mola are simple implementations of NC1200 power conversion module + NC1200/700 non regulated SMPS.. Nothing wrong with that. In Rowland M925 instead, the NC1200 is an important minority player of the entire design. Admittedly, there is a definite difference and a clear audible advantage for M925 in terms of overall resolution, transparency, authority, and background noise, although not linearly proportional to the price difference.
A more interesting comparison would be that of Rowland M925 against the newest Merrill Element 118 400W/8 800W/4 1200W/2 monoblocks ($36K/pair), or of the Rowland 1500W/8 2500W/4 Daemon integrated ($38.8K) with the combination of Merrill Element 118 + Merrill Christina pre.
Element 118, and its less powerful 116 and 114 siblings are class D amps where no third party power conversion modules are used. The output stage is entirely designed by Merrill and utilizes GaN (Gallium Nitrite) transistors. I had a preproduction Element 118 pair in my system for a few days during this spring. I found the units to be extremely promising, in spite of the devices not having final circuitry and assembly, and appearing to be far from having been broken in sufficiently... How could I tell? Because the audible behavior was evolving rapidly over the five days or so that I exercised them.
viper6, thanks for the suggestions. The new stuff is already paid for and hopefully shipping out today.
I heard Arc tubes and a Luxman stereo amp on someone elses Elipsa Se’s I wasn’t impressed. Like the sound of my Elipsa’s with my old amp better. Why, not sure. Room setup, something wrong with his speakers, my mindset, or that I just drove half the night to see them. But these are the anchors I have to +/-1 for WC’s reviews.
Seriously considered Pass Labs, think I would have been happier if I could afford top end Rowland, Conrad Johnson, considered T+A and Diablo 300 and a few others. Even a used D’Agostino Classic that came up not to far. I looked at actual landed costs, not just listed retail. Having great motivated dealer and not having to buy plane tickets, hotels, rental cars, etc to hear something in somebody else world that might well result in demo’s like the Arc and Luxman. Also my speakers go down to 2.5 ohm in the high bass. I wanted strong current, close to doubling at the way towards 2 ohm.
Ultimately, my #1 want is soundstage, others are important, but that tips the scales in my world.
WC has brought the PS mono’s in 2x. The soundstage is +1 over other his other favorite right now. I think tube rolls can improve the one issue he has. I like the tubes on the input stage, SS output idea. I ruled out a full tube amp, because I know myself and I don’t want to be buying expensive sets of tubes for the rest of my life. Can live with the small tube replacement with longer intervals. I have a DirectStream I love and think there is big value in a stack that was voiced together during design and I’ve found PS Audio’s support in the past to be top notch so not worried about service if needed.
I went with BHK mono’s plus there Preamp. A call to PS Audio helped me to become clear why I didn’t want to use the DAC for volume control or feed into an integrated without the DAC output level at 100, so it became a must. I feel like its my lifetime system and the best I could actually aquire
Sometimes it comes down to where you are coming from. I gave my Maggies to my best friend. This was such a step for him in his journey it was mind blowing. Plus friends don’t let friends do sound bars.
@whitecamaross May I just you try the new Tash Sultana disc FLOW STATE with whatever system you are using at the moment. This came out a few days ago and I think it would sound incredible on a good system, especially the song Blackbird. Available on Tidal.
Guido--fascinating development about the Merrill Elements. More to say tomorrow, but I have to control my passions while I sleep on it. THANKS SO MUCH. A game-changer.
Techno_Troll What was that comment you made awhile back about having CLASS? So you finally found somebody that might have inferior equipment to you...and you dumped on him in a public forum because that's the best system he can afford at the present time. You are quite a man....parents must be quite proud.
Sorry if some may feel offended by my strait forward opinion. But I have every right to say I don’t like PS audio vision on amps and preamps. Nevertheless, I ´ve always liked their vision about dacs.
Riaa, BHKs mono and preamp are not less expensive than favorably comparable gear.
Unless you buy BHK gear directly from the factory it sells for nowhere near it's listed price so at it's available street price it is certainly cheaper than your favorites. Also don't think Paul or BHK care what you think of their vision.
Guido, thanks for updating us on Merrill Audio. I notice that on his website, Veritas and the other prior models are not listed. So it appears that Merrill thinks that the new GaN transistors are a game changer. The Ghz bandwidth is most intriguing. I have grown resentful of Spectral's claim that their Mhz bandwidth produces the SOTA sound, provided that you use their preamp and MIT interconnects/speaker cables, otherwise the amps go into unstable oscillation. If the amps don't blow up, they get damaged over time, supposedly. Spectral won't warrantee the amps unless you buy the whole ball of wax. MIT cables are veiled and suck, based on my home auditioning years ago, although I haven't listened to the newer items. Spectral doesn't permit too many reviews. Their whole design/marketing philosophy is like the emperor with no clothes. So congratulations to Merrill for having the vision to use the new GaN devices which will probably make obsolete the present horse and buggy devices, all of them with inferior speed and other specs. Merrill doesn't have too much info and I will be disappointed if he designs and behaves like Spectral, requiring purchase of his preamps and cables to warrantee his amps. I am not knowledgable about the GaN devices so I really don't know about the potential compatibility issues. Also, I wonder about Merrill's philosophy of no negative feedback. Bruno Putzeys of Mola Mola and the designers of Soulution utilize lots of feedback to reduce distortion because they claim their very fast circuits enable the benefits of negative feedback while making the transient intermodulation distortion downside negligible. I had the Mola Mola Kaluga amp at home and vouch for its speed and low distortion. It had been used by the dealer, although I don't know for how many hours.
Guido, keep us informed about the production models of Merrill Elements. As an aside, I think meaningful auditioning of anything at shows is nearly impossible, because you don't know the system. You only know things by A/B extensive listening in your own home reference system. I have even made big mistakes by doing A/B tests at friend's homes, only to repeat the tests at home and come to opposite conclusions. For now, I would not buy any expensive piece of horse and buggy electronics until we see what Merrill has done, and other designers start using the GaN devices with their different approaches. Have any other designers tried the new GaN's?
I kind of agree. Folks have the right to voice their opinion about equipment. techno_dude made an opinion - not about someone - but about equipment - he does not favor the BHK stuff. Others might favor it. Some folks think McIntosh is great - others think it is mid-fi. Should the mid-fi opinions be squashed? WC makes opinions all the time - this amp blew away this other amp, etc. viber6 just mentioned that his experience with MIT was they were veiled and they sucked. It's an opinion about "equipment".
Perhaps more constructive would be to provide a counter-opinion, rather than beat up the person that just offered an opinion on equipment. Dave
When you have to roll tubes to make your 15k BHK monoblocs sound better............wow! My wallet will be emptied by something else.
Interesting statement here. Over the years, one of the first things I have done when I bought a tube line stage, phono stage, amp or DAC, was to give the product a listen for a few hours. And then I would make note of the tubes in the audio and PS sections. Over the course of days I would try a multitude of different tubes in each of the positions. For over 30 years, I have ALWAYS been able to make dramatic improvements in lowered noise, tonal coherency, higher resolution and most notably, portrayal of space with one or more tube swaps. This was for numerous ARC products, Counterpoint, BAT, CAT, Aesthetix, Wolcott, VAC, Aria, APL, Lampizator. And the cost to do this was often insanely cheap at less than $100 to replace the junk stock tubes. The cumulative results from this effort can take a system to a level that quite frankly will never be heard at a dealer or a show setup where the gear is loaded with the crappy stock tubes.
Of course, component manufacturers must stock their new products with these available tubes, but there is no reason for the consumer to be locked into using these tubes. And to claim tube rolling will alter the sound for the worse as the product was voiced with the stock tubes, well, that's about the most stupid argument I have ever heard from the opponents of tube rolling.
So before one slams the efforts made by others to take a product to a much higher performance level with tube rolling, I suggest they give this a try themselves .... or to just stay with solid state products.
If the equipment/brand in question was actually owned/auditioned by the party calling them Crapola thats one thing. If you've actually read this thread (and other threads certain parties are involved in on Audiogon) in their entirety you would notice certain people talking BS about stuff they have never even heard. Its happened MANY times...this isnt an isolated incident by certain individuals...and I think people are fed up with it quite frankly. Ive expressed my opinion on MAC Gear cause I have owned multiple pieces out of the 60+ Amps/Receivers etc in my collection. You might also notice that this party "Steals" or Plagiarizes comments made by others (again...Check his profile for threads he has been involved in) and imparts these tidbits as his own wisdom...when in fact he hasnt owned/auditioned the gear....and he isnt the only one in this particular thread either. That to me suggests an insecure person whose only way to derive self esteem for himself is by appearing to have superior knowledge to others and trashing equipment which is foreign to them. Psychology 101. That equates to being a TROLL in my book so the moniker stands.
I have no power on people seeing Troll in someone offering different opinions about different gear. It is just sad, really.
I have absolutely no problem with someone improoving a product by changing tubes. If you like the experience, enjoy, I have to respect that. But, I don’t like a company that sells a sota expensive product that will under perform if it is not modified. This is not my vision of ultra high end audio gear.
Just my opinion here as I've been following this post for quite some time, but, I don't think in this instance that techno_dude was being insulting or a troll. A might insensitive maybe, but not insulting or a troll. He/she (can't tell), offered an opinion about certain products that he/she does not care for. I didn't see a real negative in this case.
Also, with regards to products under performing, that I take a certain exception to. If said product sounded good enough for a person to purchase, then it most definitely didn't under perform. Otherwise, why buy it in the first place? The buyer must have liked it.
My opinion is that I purchased an item based on either my in-home demonstration (typical) or in the store and I typically don't alter the unit unless I really feel a need to. I don't tube roll, mostly because of costs and time. I'm happy with how my system sounds with what I have.
notwithstanding that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with tube rolling, changing fuses (if you feel it's necessary), power cables, etc. People are trying to get to that certain place in they system and if that is what it takes, more power to them. But, sometimes we should back up and realize that the piece you purchased wasn't crap when you purchased it and how it came from the manufacturer. It was pretty good out of the box. One may make it "better" in your view by changing certain things, but it most certainly didn't "under perform".
But, WC, how is the new equipment vs your existing equipment?
No problems sharing experiences and voicing opinions BASED on ACTUAL experience with the product you are bashing....like WC does. Somehow that went over people's heads OR reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking.
I want to chime in here since I’ve been absent due to my workload:
1. I like to give my raw opinion on gear I’ve had here. I will say I’ve heard gear in different stores and I wasn’t impressed BUT I believe you can’t really give 100% certainty until you place it in your room and push play. Look, I didn’t like Wilson Sasha’s when I heard them at a store but when I brought them home I thought they were awesome. They sounded very different and engaging here. 2. Techno dude has a valid point in regards to some manufacturers that ask for you to upgrade a component right off the bat. This is why I didn’t want to do room correction, or even roll tubes. I wanted to evaluate product the way it comes out of the box. How does it stack up against the rest ? 3. Rhia: i do agree that in order to evaluate a product, hands on experience is an important one because you can pin point what you hated or loved about it. It’s really hard to do this outside your home. Why? Because you know exactly what your own system sounds like. Your ears are dialed in for your system. You will easily identify the changes when you swap out components.
4. Many brands do sell a lot of snake oil and I unfortunately can’t put them on blast. I have learned that you can’t always trust specs, design, etc. Sometimes when a new version gets released, nothing has changed. It’s just a different color or a different grille. Internally nothing has changed. Why ? Because most manufacturers need to keep selling product.
I love everyone who keeps this thread going. Rhea, techno, mike Paul, Jacob, ron, thezaks, Guido, viber and the rest that I’m forgetting to mention, you all keep me going day in and day out. You guys rock and although you have different points of views, we are pretty much a family here. I appreciate the effort you guys also put in here. Rhea is nuts, techno dude is crazy, and I’m the craziest mofo out of everyone. :)
Sorry riaa, if you felt that my reading comprehension skills were/are lacking. I had thought that techno_dude was making an opinion about gear that had to be modified in some way to sound its best. I think that's OK, but maybe I didn't read it right.
I feel folks should be able to offer an opinion, even if they have not actually heard how something performs - whether in their home or somewhere else. The measurement folks, for example, will downplay products, either because of poor measurements or lack of measurements, without ever listening to the product. Some folks will downplay products, because of a company that has poor customer service, etc, etc.
For me, I care more about subjective listening and how it sounds in my home with my setup. I also enjoy subjective opinions from others - often there is a trend to how something performs. The folks I mentioned in the previous paragraph (specifically the measurement folks) do not necessarily operate that way. Even though I don't value their opinions as much, they still have the same right to post their opinion as I do.
If someone offers an opinion without any reason for it, I will often ask how they came to that opinion, rather than beating them up for it. If they still decide not to provide any reason for their opinion, well, then it's fairly obvious to everyone that there may be some sort of agenda. It happens sometimes. HEY WC!! How's that BAT (and any other gear) coming along?
All good guys. Rhea is a good dude. He’s probably crazier than I am. I’m trying to pry is m400 monos and he won’t let me. Damn it. If he was my neighbor, we would have no wife or a family because of the crazy amount of shoot outs we would do. What I feel techno did was to say what came to mind but I also understand what he meant. You know how many times I’ve tried to say “ this amp sucks and it will only sound good with a 5,000 dollar power cord”? The bottom line is when we buy a car, like a Lamborghini aventador, we aren’t expecting to drop another 30k in engine work in order to be impressed. We want it to make us go like HOLY crap as it comes from the factory and whatever we buy for it is icing on the cake. Granted, the bhk300s aren’t a lambo. I think they are a good bang for the money. Are they better than Luxman? Nope. But for the money, it’s a good pair of amps. Another great example is the ref10. It’s an example of being blown away with it the way it comes. With factory tubes it sounds like holy shit. If you roll tubes then it will probably be far better.
Lastly, I wanted to thank grey9hound for sending me some cool music. I received a lot of CDs from him and I can’t wait to play all of it so I can Comment. Rhea, I’m gonna take those m400s from you. I’m telling you I AM !
First of all STOP making me into a Jewish Woman (RHEA).
RIAA = Record Industry Association of America. The governing body of the music industry which counts all record sales....just for your info.
Your gonna have to move to the North East to try the Dag's. You will also have to adopt a NJ/NY attitude which is "dont take any S___ from anybody" as Billy Joel always says in Concert. :)
WC, I agree that a product should FIRST be evaluated straight out of the box. But it is also interesting to try different tubes, as with the BHK. Let's say the BHK and BAT are very close in original stock condition. Then for the BHK you try tubes or different manufacturers, or better yet, try Roger Majeski's tubes with better specs. Then you may find that the character of the BHK changes substantially depending on the tube, then you can say that the BHK is significantly better or worse in a certain sonic way, depending on the tube, and now you have a clearer preference for the BHK or BAT than you had before the tube experiment. I remember you preferred the stock BHK for electronic music, but the Mac2301 for vocals. How about going all the way and trying the 2301 with Majeski's best-spec tubes to create more accuracy, and then I wouldn't be surprised that you might report that the 2301 beats the BHK in every sonic way, for most/all types of your music. All this is audio connoisseurship fun that separates us from the casual midfi listener. Take two pretty girls wearing the same outfits. You rate A as a 9, and B as an 8. Now dress up B in an elegant outfit, and demote A to wearing ripped up jeans. Then you might rate B higher than A. That's why females spend lots of money on clothes. They do Miss USA competitions with everyone dressed to kill. How about if they did it with everyone wearing the same mediocre jeans without makeup? Not as entertaining with stock jeans. You see my point, although admittedly I may exaggerate, ha ha.
RIAA, funny RHEA. Rhea Perlman (married to Danny DeVito) was funny on Cheers, but I don't know if the RIAA was ever funny. Actually, many old preamps had different EQ curves--RIAA, AES, and I forgot the others. But these curves are still restricted and boring compared to the much greater flexibility to be gotten from thoughtful use of an EQ like my Rane. Mastering engineers have much more sophisticated EQ's on their mixing boards than even my Rane.
True and false. Some modern components are designed very much around a specific tube, to sound as good as they are going to get, Audio Research and 6H30 for example. BHK is probably in the same camp.
On the other hand, you can't dismiss NOS tubes and it's not a $15 difference in a lot of cases. When it comes to 6DJ8/6922 tubes, hard to beat an NOS Amperex tubes. Amperex DD getter EL34s sound better than any modern EL34, or for that matter any EL34, by a factor of 10.
Call Andy at Vintage Tube Services and order a two pairs of Amperex 7308 Goldpins for the BHK amp. Or message me and I'll send you a pair to borrow (only have a pair, but I have a quad of Amperex PQ 6922 you can borrow, close but not as good as a good 7308).
The BHK amps are delivered with the best available current production tube that PSA can buy in quantities and also the best one that the consumer can readily find at a reasonable price. It is not surprising in their test of selected NOS tubes from Uncle Kevie that they had a preference for a NOS tube that hasn't been available for decades. They couldn't buy it in the quantities they needed for continuous production and it might not be obtainable by owners in the future. Remember Kevin also had something to gain by sending those multiple NOS tube samples to Bascom and Arnie in that if they preferred one of them personally to the Genalex tubes then that could generate sales for him. As a PSA dealer not done out of the goodness of his heart as he made sure everyone new which tube was favored.
Oh my, I love the Amperex 7308. But my fav of this tube family (6922, 6DJ8, .u..) is the Amperex 6922 PQ Pinched Waist. Wow, so rich and lush but insanely expensive to find nowadays. I have had great success with tubes from Andy and Kevin.
Fortunately, with a flip of a switch, my preamp can run 12V tubes in the line stage and the RCA 12BH7 takes the unit to a level of musicality way beyond any 6V tube. And they are cheap compared to the NOS 6V tubes.
After hearing what these older tubes can do, there is no way I could ever tolerate the new tubes of today.
doitwithlife, I am not sure you stated what your present electronics are. Can you give just a little more info about what your Elipsa speakers are? The Maggies are excellent, so it would be interesting to hear what you prefer in the Elipsa. When you break in your new BHK preamp and amps, please tell us how they are different from your present setup. I sympathize with the hassles involved with extensive traveling to hear things. A meaningful audition is impossible, except for basic observations and to get to know the host. Home auditions are a must if you are spending serious money.
To several experienced tube rollers here, thanks for your knowledge. I only have the 1 experience years ago with Roger Majeski's tubes on the Theta tube preamp. Perhaps each manufacturer of the same tube type has a general sonic signature, but I also believe that there are variations within each manufacturer. Roger grades the tubes according to noise and perhaps other objective specs. This may be the most useful approach, rather than going by names of manufacturers. As an analogy, a McIntosh apple may have a generically different taste than a Gala, but taste a few Gala's and they might have subtle differences. Of greater differences would be size and shape of the Gala apple. This is just nature's variations, and I believe that despite the illusion of the same tubes from a batch, there are variations in materials and random slight variations in the manufacturing process. Some manufacturers of expensive SS electronics do transistor matching for this reason. Also, the manufacturer of the tube electronics may have his own sound preference and put in the tube that matches his preference, but that doesn't make it authoritative. That's why tube rolling is important, according to your own preferences. I am not referring to making gross changes such as KT120 vs. KT150, because you are making a new design which may backfire. Just try the different samples of the KT120, for example. I have no connection to Majeski, so I have no bias, but I am just talking about what makes the most sense to me.
6c19s? (stock), or do you have the X-Pak and the 6h30 tubes? (or the rare 5881's? Would be good to know.
Viber, I'm not fortunate enough to have the 600 or 655, I have a slightly older VK250. I don't want to say it's "warm" sounding as many might. Once warmed up (IMO BAT amps do require more warm up than some others I've owned), the bass is outstanding, the mids are natural. I think that yes, on the absolute very top end it's smooth. I won't say rolled off, but there is no unnatural emphasis on the top that some like.
I think most of the BAT SS amps punch way above their rating.
I do think the 225 and 6200 (multi channel) are not built to quite the standard of the 200, 250, 600, 655. Slightly different internally.
I sure wouldn’t think the amp would affect the bass output on the 13a,. It’s an interesting question as the pre-amp certainly could and likely does affect the bass, yet the signal makes it’s way to the speaker VIA the amp sending it. But, then it’s crossed at the 13a and amplified and EQ’d (assuming you use the ARC feature).
My neighbor has the 11’s. What he focused on was a quality amp with the current to drive the panel (he had issues with one amp shutting down), a quality pre-amp and source. But with the ARC EQ on the bass - they sound really good.
Yes the amplifier affects the bottom end on marring Logan electrostatics. If your amp has more bottom end then the woofers will let you know even though they are self powered.
Hello @mitch2 Viber6, I believe that Technics might have introduced an amp based on GaN transistor a year ago or so. GaN transistors have been around for a spell, but only recently they have come to the attention of amplifier designers.
GaN transistors lend themselves to designing class D circuit that do not suffer of the dead states that are alleged to be responsible for some of the brittleness in the tone of some older class D amps. Be this true or false, GaN transistors are just one of many "arrows" which are potentially available in the part components "quiver" of current designers... Worth pointing out though, that GaN transistors are just a component part of the complex Merrill Oganessom topology..... If the work, they do so because they happen to be synergistic with everything else that goes into the particular devices.
Very much like NC1200 in the Rowland M925 or the Pascal X2-Pro are small parts of the Rowland M925 and the Rowland Daemon, respectively.... It's the synergistic interaction of a myriad of large and small component parts that make the behavior of the whole.
Besides, I am always reminded of Igor Stravinsky's cautionary note:
“Judge
the tree by its fruit then, and do not meddle with its roots.
Function justifies an organ, no matter how strange the organ may appear in the
eyes of those who are not accustomed to see it functioning”
Igor Stravinsky – Poetic Of Music [Oxford
University Press, p. 49]
I’m currently using the Mac MC601 that is driving my Vandersteen 2CE Sig 2 for about five years now and I must say the MC 601 really woke up the Vandersteen, even though my speakers is the weakest and cheapest link in my system, it sounds so much clearer, better sound stage separation, and lots of time the speakers just disappear while seating on the sweet spot. Now, after reading WHITECAMAROSS reviews on the Mac 2301, I am now considering the upgrade. I mostly listen to jazz music from Like Dave Brubeck to David Benoit and some Mile Davis, and sometimes some easy rock and some Diana Crall and lots of Latin Jazz Like Carlos Jobim and Sergio Mendes. Anyway, would I really hear the difference between the two amps? Again I’m very happy and satisfied with the Mac 601s
MP... while I’m not a huge room correction fan for 2 channel listening. I do think it helps most people with subwoofers, bass, and centers and surrounds.
Now DSP (Which I suppose some consider room correction), I have heard the JBL m2's set up properly. Those are a damn fine speaker. Industrial looking, pro amps, but man they do sound good.
Miketuason: the 2301 is the best amp I’ve ever heard from McIntosh. Far more engaging. as a matter of fact: the bhk300s Monos sound much better than the 601s. They are tube based so they will engage you more.
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