Whitecamaross,
I'm not surprised by your listening impressions with direct comparison between the tube versus solid state McInTosh power amplifiers.
Midrange, detail, air, larger soundstage, emotional engagement,and increased musicality . These are the areas where good tubes exceed good transistors more often than not.
If the Magico is as accurate as your have described , then it would easily reveal the distinct sonic contrasts between them. They appear to have done so. The BHK amplifier is said to be very good (I've not heard one) I'd give it a listen.
Charles |
whitecamaross- OP 912 posts 08-26-2018 11:46am A friend of mine wants to bring his bhk300 Monos and do a shootout against my 2301s. Lol oh damn. What if the 2301s got smoked by ps audio ? You just never know .. they might get smoked ! |
Of course everything is system dependent, but I didn't have good results when I tried the BHK 300 mono-amps in my system. After hearing them I decided to keep my Rowland 625 S2 amp.
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I was told that the 2301 was never replaced because McIntosh claimed they couldn’t improve it.
Will the 200.8s smoke the 2301s? Time will tell.. there’s one thing that we all need to take into account: it’s called system synergy and there’s a A HELL LOT OF IT between the ref10 and 2301s. I’m running a total of 38 tubes right now... |
MC 2301s vs Pass 200.8s vs Lux M900us.
That would be a GLORIOUS battle.
My vote is for the the Lux , but I am biased cause I own one. A rare ss amp that has tube midrange with ss bass and highs astonishing resolution... There is a reason why many whats best forum audiophiles have sold their big tube rig for the Lux.
I guess class A Pass Labs can also be very competitive with the best tube out there.
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A friend of mine wants to bring his bhk300 Monos and do a shootout against my 2301s. Lol oh damn. What if the 2301s got smoked by ps audio ?
...,you should do this comparo! |
I still hope you can get your hands on a pair of d'Ag M400 at some point to compare to all of the amps you owned to date.
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One day I will. For now, the upcoming battle will be 2301s vs pass 200.8. Will solid state best tubes ? We shall see... |
You dont want him to try Dag 400’s with the Ref 10. His search might be over...then this will become a SPEAKER page instead. There are several people on the AudioShark Forum that have the Dag 400/Ref 10 setup AND have previously had (or still have) Luxman 900’s as well. They all prefer the Dag 400 with Ref 10 OR the Dag Pre-Amp. Go to the D’AGOSTINO page and read for yourself...don’t take my word for it. Unfortunately most DAG comments made recently are from somebody that has never heard them...even thou according to him they were available for him to audition but he passed just because of the price tag. Ever notice how people that cant afford certain gear just talk about them out of spite/jealousy/insecurity etc? Sadly misinformation happens all the time and gives some people the wrong impression/ideas about how something actually sounds. That guys Opinion becomes THEIR Opinion and then in later posts (Potentially on other boards) those impressionable people with ZERO Experience with the product state that guys observations as fact. That’s why I appreciate this thread. Im hearing somebodys opinion based on reality...not fantasy/speculation. Personally even if I couldn’t afford something but was given the opportunity to hear it I certainly would want to....that way I know what to potentially shoot for down the road. Learn what my system could be like. But hey...that’s just me
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Thanks Riaa. I want to hear those m400s for sure but they gotta hit my door at the right price. All I can do is wait until one of my connections have a pair or something shows up.
For now, I will try the 2301s and the 200.8s. I was told by a credible source of mine that he tried the m400s and ref10 and it was the best he’s ever heard. I trust his ears very much so. He also has a thing for the 2301s though. I will say the 2301 is a special amp. No question about it. As a matter of fact, I can say with confidence that 10 years from now it will still be a desirable amp. |
AT 65k usd , the Dag M400s better sound best than the Lux M900us at 30k...it`s more than double the price. BUT how much better, that is the killer question. Because it is well known that the Lux M900us punch well above their price range. So, for most audiophiles, that difference may absolutely not be worth the big extra $. |
I just turned on everything again and man From a dead cold start things sound freaking incredible. The air around the instruments is insane. 38 total tubes make a huge difference. The music sounds so pleasant, so real, so crisp, so amazing in many ways and the magico just display everything. If I didn’t have the 200.8s coming, I would be ok to pull the ebrake right now and enjoy this for a few months. I almost don’t want to go back to solid state but as many of you know by now, I enjoy this journey. Maybe I will keep the 2301s as my second set of amps so I can change the flavor of my music from time to time. |
If your gonna try more tubes you have to absolutely try to get a Demo pair of REF 160M. Hit Mike up and ask to borrow his. Might take awhile for them to hit the market cause everybody loves them so much...OR you can move to the PA/NJ Area and you can borrow my Dag 400's, 160M, Ayre KXR-20 Preamp, Audio Note Jinro and a bunch of speakers you've never tried (Audio Note/Joseph Audio Pearl's/O96's/Salk Soundscape 8) ...The move might be cheaper!! :) |
I can just imagine a pair of those 2301s driving an updated / new pair of Khorns ! Enjoy ! MrD. |
I will hold off on 160m. I want to figure out how much current the 2301s draw while idling. The 200.8 draw 750 watts just in idle. Anyone know ?
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I don’t doubt that the Pass Labs may outperform the MAC 2301 in certain parameters yet come up short in others. The Pass may not be better in an overall satisfying sense. Thai will be quite an interesting comparison. It sure seems as though the Magico responds very favorably to good quality tube power. It’s behaving as a relatively neutral conduit. That’s a good attribute IMO. WC is getting a hefty dose of musical realism based on his comments regarding the MAC 2301. That's hard to achieve sometimes.
Charles |
The 2301s don't draw 750 watts with the meters pegged. I could have checked earlier today by plugging one into my PS Audio P-10, but I'm out of town for a bit. I would say less than 200 watts, but I will check next weekend. |
I own the p20 and I don’t think I could tell how much power they draw by plugging them into it ?
We shall see what will happen... my gut says it’s the synergy what I’m enjoying now. It’s not the ref10 and it’s not the 2301. It’s everything as a whole. |
If you scroll through the menu on the P-10 the display will show you voltage in, THD in, voltage out, THD out, amperage draw, and out put wattage being used. I’m sure the P-20 must as well. |
So glad you finally made your way into high powered tube amps. Too bad the Shashas are gone. Wilsons sound great with them. |
Wilson’s sound awesome with Agostino too. Breathtaking. |
WC , I can’t wait to read you about the 200.8 vs the MC2301s.
Are the Pass due to arrive soon ? |
Riaa, Since I haven't personally heard the ARC 160 monos or the Dag 400 monos, I would be interested in your OBJECTIVE description of the sound characteristics of each compared to each other, and possibly compared to other amps you have had at home. Do you have the top Ayre Twenty monos? Don't wax eloquently about the magic or emotional connection to the music--many people here would want to hear objectively about tonal balance, tightness of bass, extension in the highs, midrange tonal accuracy, subtle information retrieval, etc. Also, in what way was the ARC GS150 "junk" as you claimed? I can only speculate that it was not as romantically tubey the way other ARC products are, although as a whole, ARC has been less tubey than other tube equipment from Conrad Johnson and others. Many years ago, I did hear the ARC SP 6B and SP 10 preamps, CJ Premier 3 preamp, so I know the general characteristics of those companies' products. Thanks.
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ARC....the company that builds tube gear to sound like solid state. Never understood that thinking. It’s ridiculous by my standards.
- How does your ARC tube amp sound ?
- Very neutral like good SS.
- WTF ?... |
Its not MY thread. I dont listen to Violins/Harps so what I hear listening to Classic/Hard Rock wouldnt apply to you (or possibly most) anyway. I traded in my Ayre VXR Twenty towards the 160M's. Opinion on GS150 not based on sound quality....based on BUILD Quality and how many had defects and were returned for repair. This is why they have been purged as fast as possible from dealer inventories at maximum discounts. |
Riaa--musical preferences certainly vary, but even though I don't listen much to the music that WC prefers, I still value and respect his observations on the objective and subjective aspects of sound. Violins, harps, guitars, string bass are all plucked instruments, so someone's comments about unamplified guitars has relevance to me. High frequency extension of cymbals/triangles is greater than that of violins, so again someone's comments about cymbal/triangle sound is of great interest to me, no matter whether the cymbal is used in classical, jazz or other types of music. Many people here including me would like to hear your comments about the comparative tonal characteristics of the Dag, ARC 160M, Ayre VXR Twenty. Sure, it's not your thread, but I am sure WC appreciates all the input here from everyone, especially since he probably loses some money on many trials, but he is willing to lose some money in return for the experience and knowledge gained. In return for the knowledge and experience he has given us, I think it is appropriate for us to provide as much knowledge/experience that each of us can give.
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WC Knows where to find me if he cares to pick my brain. Just did a deal for the Lux 900U/Pass 25 Combo this morning so look forward to adding those to the stable. Thanks WC for the excellent Lux reviews which sucked me in :) |
riaaWhich Joseph Audio Pearl (1/2/3) do you own? There are not many audiophiles that own this particular JA model. Happy Listening!
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3 Got em cheap. Havent used them yet. Just another "toy in the attic" for usage at a later date. |
Ria, you changed your Ayre VXR Twenty for ARC tube amplification ???? Are you serious about this ?
That is a downgrade move. VXR twenty is leagues away technologically from whatever ARC makes. Also build...the vxr casing is one solid piece of aluminum...no bolts or joints.
King move on the 900u though. This piece is imperial. |
Techno_dude; no disrespect, but I doubt very much that what you claim about Ayre vs Audio Research is true. Anyway, If WC has an Audio Research REF 10 pre-amp, then mating it with the REF 250 SE amps will change some minds. I believe that there will demonstration equipment by Ayre, Audio Research, Atmosphere (I hope) and many others at this year's RMAF. I'm looking forward to hearing some fine music played through some fine equipment there. You know, what these shows should insist on is that each demonstration room play the same music. Wouldn't that be interesting? WC, you don't know anyone that can loan you a pair of Audio Research REF 250 SE amps for a few weeks? enjoy |
Techno_Troll, Your entitled to your opinion. I have serious doubts you have heard either one of them. Point is mute anyway cause you don't have my ears, taste, room etc If you took a poll of 1000 audiophiles and 999 said the Ayre was better I still wouldn't give a damn. My ears are the only ones that count. |
Thank You - riaa
Happy Listening!
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I will state upfront that on an open forum such as this one there will be many opinions expressed that others can agree or disagree with. I am in agreement with riaa and minorl in this case. I'm familiar with both Ayre and Audio Research audio components. Based on my listening experiences I don't find Ayre superior to Audio Research by any stretch of the imagination, no way, no how. Just my opinion and full acknowledgement of the subjective nature of it all.Riaa has heard both and prefers the Audio Research. Each listener must trust what they hear and the results will surely vary.
Charles |
Ria: if you can do 900u Monos then do it. It paid off for me. Lastly, you need a ref10 with it.
So anyhow, I’ve had a couple of friends give their input about the 2301s vs 200.8s in my current set up. The 200.8s should arrive mid September or before. This is the longest I’ve wait for any amp. I’m typically a very desperate guy once I pay for an item which is why those of you who bought stuff from me usually get tracking info from me very quickly.
Anyhow, everyone who I’ve asked for their input on the 200.8 vs 2301 has chosen the 2301s to be the ones to remain victorious.
They say that although the 200.8 is a better design, etc and it will attempt to sound close to tubes, it won’t duplicate real tube sound. They said that yes to the naked eye/ears the 200.8 can sound like tubes when they are sitting by themselves but once you bring a real tube amp then the differences will be obvious. Also, the synergy that I find right now is crazy incredible. Some of the best I’ve had hands down.
You want my preliminary feeling?? Well... I will say that yes the 200.8s will lose vs the 2301s. I expect the pass 200.8s to expose the “sluggishness” of the 2301 and lack of bottom end but the 2301s sheer musicality And synergy will be enough to shut the door on the 200.8. Will I be wrong? We shall see...
ps: the gryphon diablo is now sitting on the sidelines being part of the bench while it waits to see the outcome. :) it has now taken a back seat. |
Riaa..
- Buys Ayre VXR twenty, pays premium to own Ayre name and one of the best amps made to sound sound like tubes.( without the cons of tubes)
- Then sales the latter to buy a tube amp.
-Then is so satisfied with its last move that he feels the need to buy AGAIN a SS amp like the 900u, based on an opinion on this thread. ( But tells he doesnt give a s...about other’s opinion.)
- Then says I m a troll. But I m probably the biggest 900u pumper on this thread ( with WC), but he doesnt care about my opinion...then gets a 900u.
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Hello ALL,
It is not fruitful to argue about what is "best" because "best" is a subjective opinion that is not useful to other listeners here. What is most important and most useful is to be able to OBJECTIVELY describe the sound of a component in the context of a system. Even though there are so many variables, a particular sweet sounding tube amp will sound that way in almost any system compared to a particular fast sounding SS amp in such a system. Instead of calling other people trolls because they have different opinions, just describe your sonic observations objectively and then let other people consider the component based on their own tastes and budgets. It also doesn't matter what kind of music you like, you should be able to objectively describe the sound of different instruments which are utilized in any type of music. An unamplified (not electronic) guitar will sound like itself no matter what the genre of music. The most obvious case is the human voice which we all hear every day in all kinds of settings. I even listen carefully to the sound of random street conversations involving single voices or groups talking, laughing or yelling. I listen to the sounds of nature like different birds, honking horns, buzzing saws/drills, banging hammers and dropping boards of wood and metal from construction crews, the fan blowing in my bedroom, etc. This is all part of education about what real natural sounds are like, and this forms the basis of all our perceptions about music, which is merely a unique type of environmental sound. I feel that WC has done a very thorough job in much of this with additional color from his experiences with cars, and he has inspired many of us to share our own experiences. That is what this forum is about, which is the free expression of our experiences, instead of snide attacks on other people from the attacker who probably has an agenda, business or otherwise.
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WC...I have a Ref 10 so thats covered. Troll...Have always considered Luxman...before I even discovered this thread. Got the 900U from a FRIEND who's vast knowledge of equipment based on ACTUAL ownership...not speculation is what sold me. WC just backed up his findings and I appreciate his input because he ACTUALLY owned and listened to it versus many other amps/preamps in his ongoing battle for audio supremacy. For you to recklessly say that the VXR is superior to the 160M (Without hearing either of them) proves to me that you really don't know Jack and your talking out of your ass....so your opinion about anything isn't even on the map of consideration in my book at this point. Ive had 4 or 5 Pieces of AYRE...Only the KXR-20 Pre is worth keeping. Nothing special about the Ayre Amps...although they smoke the Mcintosh gear I have owned or heard. Havent heard them all including the 2301's. How would you possibly know how much I paid for anything?? This just adds to your Troll reputation. The VXR I did not pay a premium for....in the 7K Range and it was only 6 months old. At that price it was a screaming bargain. I got 11K in trade for it less than a year later....was that a bad deal Sherlock??? So how much do you know about the ARC 160M?? Do you know its AUTO-BIAS?? What cons are you talking about?? There has been TONS of articles, reviews and auditions by ARC for the past 6 months or so across the USA at multiple dealerships. Have you attended any to give it a listen before passing judgment?? Not sure why you care so much about what I do with my equipment. I retired at 44 and have plenty of time on my hands to experiment and swap in/out as I please. I currently have well over 50 Amps/Receivers of all makes, models, vintage and my inventory changes every month. Should I ask for your permission from now on when I feel like unloading something I no longer want or need...I mean just to make sure I don't make any mistakes again like trading in the VXR towards the 160M. . |
riaa
Damn, are you a dealer/retailer? Over 50 pieces of Audio gear is quite sweet! Happy Listening!
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I’ll take the Mid-Fi Mac tubes over all of them.
WC finally said the right word.... Musicality.
I’ll take that Musicality over the other attributes, that so many consider, that makes something Hi-Fi......like... Mouse Farts. etc :)
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I have heard the ARC 160Ms a number of times. Most recently with TAD ME-1s and CE1s, with a Ref10 and a turntable. That combination is just ridiculously good. Not syrupy or bloated, but nice firm but not quite SS bottom end, a midrange that has some bloom and is just lovely, and good SS quality highs. Very lively yet easy to listen to for hours.
BTW, heard the Sasha II W/P on Sunday with the ARC LS28/Ref75SE and that was very seriously good. Such a beautiful combo. ARC and Wilson have a well-known synergy.
So WC, I understand your comments on synergy. To me, synergy is key, crucial, king if you want a system to sound good. It takes a while to find the components/speakers that work well together but once you have, YOU WILL know it without a doubt. Sounds like you have found it here. Good for you. Rock on......... |
Wilson and D'Agostino is also another known match. I've heard it a few times and it was very good in several systems.
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One thing I wanted to add is that the 2301 has musicality and sweetness that is absent from the 601,452,1.2kw etc. The 2301 is one special amp even if it’s a 10 year old design. My findings are with me comparing it to those amps that passed through my living room.
In regards to the magico: this is WHY I chose to keep them. They easily let you hear what happened to the sound when you switch out components.
If I were to try to compare audio research amps vs McIntosh amps hmmm. Ok what I can say and mind you this is from 2 different set ups. The gs150 had balls and good bass but if I compared it to the 2301s I would say that the 2301s are sweeter with more of a mellow sound that engages you. The gs150 had balls and power but I could also say that at times you could have mistaken it with a little bit of solid state sound. This is not the case with the 2301s. Nothing about the 2301s sounds like solid state. That said, I can’t comment on the 160m amps. I’ve heard from credible sources that they are the best amps to come out of ARC. I would definitely love to try them some day.
If I were to say what audio research does best then it would preamps and Luxman would be amps. ive owned the 900u FOUR TIMES and maybe a 5th time if I decide to bring monos again. That’s perhaps the amp that made me realize how mid fi some brands are. It kills the pass labs 350.8 and anything below it. I can’t comment on the 200.8 yet but Just remember I was floored with the 200.5s.
Ive never owned ayre but a couple of people who owned it told me that the mxr twenty Monos are smooth and detailed but they don’t have any dynamics. They can’t force bass out of the woofers. This is what’s held me back from owning those Monos. I like an amp that has full control of the speaker.
Lastly, if you own a 900u amp and are thinking of selling it to buy something else, you better be sure of what you’re doing. I’ve had a hard time beating the 900u. The Rowland’s 925s were the only ones that did it. It’s very difficult to find a fault with the 900u. Often times when I sold
them and tried something else I realized I went backwards.
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whitecamaross
Rock On! Happy Listening!
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Jafant, Nope not a audio dealer although I'd like to think I help keep some in business like WC. Retired 10 years ago. Lots of free time on my hands and like trying out new toys every month or so to keep it interesting. |
@whitecamaross
In regards to the magico: this is WHY I chose to keep them. They easily let you hear what happened to the sound when you switch out components.
Well, So does the Tekton Design Double Impact speakers.... They easily show you equipment changes, front end , and cables ...they are that good You would be shocked at their performance , but of course you will never know . because of their price tag (3K), you think that they can't possibly perform any where near those 30k speakers . Well , read the reviews .You would be sadly mistaken to shun them. but I know that you and many others
as well .
,do shun them, I notice in your comments about gear , that you tend to think that if they cost more ... they will be better . The Double Impact, Encore , and Ulfberht all are amazing speakers that can probably beat what you have . Also , most of them are power friendly and can be magical with many low powered Tube Amps. Please at least read the Reviews. If you do , you should at least be interested. I wish you would try the Tektons. I mean it would be a drop in the bucket compared to what you have been throwing around AND you get a Free 60 day trial. You don't like them, ... send them back. It isn't all about how much you can spend or how good of a deal you can score on High Dollar Equipment, or at least it shouldn't be , but at least it seems that way to me . I just get the feeling that everything you are considering is all based on how much it originally costs. In other words if it was 55K Msrp then it should be better than a 35k MSRP item. It just gets silly when you get up to those kinds of prices. I mean obviously i ought to and should be . I just think that the Double Impact or DI SE The Encore or the Ulfberht would blow you away because of the Cost to Performance ratio as compared to the Magico. Just my opinion of course and not meant to offend. |
Viber6 agreed with you, there is no need to call anyone a troll on this thread. Most of us stay classy, some do not unfortunately.
Greyhound, +1 on your love for Mac tube amps. Like WC says, they sound nothing like SS... Not like ARC that tries to make their tube gear sound like SS...totaly ridiculous and paradoxal to me ...makes no sense at all. Mac has both SS and tube, Mac assumes each of them...pros and cons. Luxman eats the same soup, Lux offers a tube integrated and Lux don’t feel the need to make it sound NEUTRAL like SS...
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"Neutral like SS" I don’t accept this premise.
Which SS amplifier is Neutral? Pass Labs, McInTosh, Krell, Bryston, Solution, Ayre, Gryphon, Constellation? All of these are transistor amplifiers and each has its own sonic signature. So which one is the neutral example?
There is just as much variation amongst transistors as there are within the tube amplifier niche. Both types of output devices have coloration but differ in characteristics of the sonic spectrum. If anything, tubes ’generally’ sound more natural despite their colorations than most transistors with their own colorations. It really depends on which type of sonic coloration you can live with long term and remain content .
Charles |
The most neutral amp I’ve owned was the boulder 2060. It just didn’t have any soul... |
The most neutral amp I’ve owned was the boulder 2060. It just didn’t have any soul... Neutrality often results in this. And, neutrality aside, I suspect your 15A circuit driving your entire system never gave the Boulder a chance to come alive. A neutral amp would be my top choice if it could drive my speakers to their full capabilities. I can add all the necessary magic (desired tonal colorations, 3D, etc) to the system by carefully selecting the sources, line stage and speakers....and not botch it all up with cabling. Did you ever drop in the Silent Source ICs? |
