I agree. The reproduced music should be an accurate representation of the recorded music. Bass slam or whatever one calls it is fun, but may not be accurate. the real question (to me) should be, does the system reproduce the recorded music accurately? In the recording studios or even live, is the bass emphasized as much as you hear it sometimes in audio systems? I don't think so. First thing I do is play music at a level that I can listen to comfortably. Then I insert a test CD and play pink noise and use an app like audiotools (free) and look at the frequency response at ear level in my room. Then you can see the peaks and dips that should not be there. Correct that, then listen again. If the bass response is wayyyyy too high, you then know that the system or a component in the system is reproducing bass response out of proportion and it is not accurate. Anyway, just my take. Still enjoying the ride. But, as I said, the question should be, is the sound accurate first? enjoy |
isn't that what the Master said to Grasshopper?
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viber6, your input is very appreciated.
Nope, never eard the Lux M600A. Only the 900u and 700u.
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I agree, viber6 gives a great perspective (and significant experience based on the thread) on this equipment. BTW, I sent a DM you way, not sure if you saw it. |
riaa_award, Cut your disrespectful crapola. My live music background and experience dwarfs that of most people on this forum. When I tell you that most audiophile systems are veiled and dark compared to the snap and precision of the real thing, RESPECT THAT STATEMENT. I have never personally had any D'ag (not Krell) in my home for audition, but I am just telling you that the salesman said that by comparison with Spectral, D'ag is RELATIVELY dark. When he listened to my Bryston that I brought in, he said that from his experience with D'ag in his store, D'ag was AGAIN RELATIVELY dark. That doesn't mean that D'ag is absolutely dark, and in comparison with lots of other gear of less resolution, those other gear would be darker. I and many people define "dark" as being rolled off in the highs so that the sound is weighted more toward the lower freq. It is often associated with loss of information and clarity. The way WC described the sound of the Lux M900u and from Doug Schneider's review saying that its highs had clarity beyond belief, my guess is that D'ag will be darker than the Lux.
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minorl, I love the way you expressed the differences between live and reproduced music. Totally correct. I believe that a system must be played at the volume levels matching live. For most music of all genres, it is 70-80 dB average, with occasional peaks much higher. A guitar that is not being smashed, an interpretive singer who is not screaming, a bass player providing plucked accompaniment or a melodic line, even a relatively louder trumpeter playing a tune--all these are at fairly modest volume levels. Now, assume you are listening to a perfect fidelity dream system (in my fantasies, say, a full range plasma massless driver) at average level of 75 dB to match the live level of that particular piece. If you then turn the volume up 6 dB to excite yourself, that is not high fidelity--it is just plain distortion of the real thing. The sound will be bloated and less natural. |
Hi guys,
a couple of things here regarding my previous comment about low volume:
1. <90 dB for me is considered moderate to low volume @viber6 FYI. In response to your post above re. "75dB" WC stated what's copied directly above (4/13/18) when I questioned his evaluation of amps at high volumes, which he also stated was generally above 90dB. Here is more from the same post: That said, loudness is subjective. What maybe be loud for you maybe not be loud for me or anyone else. When I said <90db, that is low to low-moderate to me. If what is considered low volume is <=80db then I’d buy headphones if I listened at that level all the time. For me it makes no sense to have a system and listen to it at <80db. That’s crazy and a waste of money. You’re better off with high quality headphones. He also said the following: Most amps fall apart or lose their magic at low listening volumes [except the Bel Canto Black System, at that point in time] |
Here are a couple of things guys:
1. I can’t speak about dag amps. I respect his work and what’s he’s done and I honestly don’t think the momentum amps are laid back.
2. My pass 200.8s will have less power on paper than the 601s but would you Believe me if I told you the 200.5s had a massive amount of power when I owned them ? They sounded like 700 watt per channel class ab amps in terms of loudness.
i have a chance to get a couple of mc2301 McIntosh amps locally. I wasn’t looking for more McIntosh but I sold my 601s already and it will be about 2 weeks before I see my 200.8s so I am now contemplating a pair of mc2301s that are local to me.
Yes this is half the power of the 601s but I recall being very impressed by the 2301s when I owned them. The only thing I thought was not too good was the bottom end. It was somewhat loose.
Decisions decisions... should I get the 2301s... or should I just hold off until the 200.8s arrive... |
Sorry guys. I didn't want to start a war about what is proper sound.
Bass slam to me is bass that is not muddy or lacking in the proper decibel level relative to the rest of the system. When I can sit and enjoy music digitally, I want to enjoy the black backgrounds of it, along with a proper DAC that doesn't fatigue. I dislike speakers that put out too much treble for my ears. What some call clarity, I call annoying.
I find many amplifiers cannot produce the proper bass. It's not the level of bass, it's the real reproduction of it, and the ability to hear the proper decay time. I hope that clears up what I mean about slam. A lot of speakers don't have the proper bass levels. Many are -3db. That's why I like the REL subs. Connected directly to the amplifier speaker outputs, the RELs add the character of the amplifier and they are lightning fast in response.They are meant to be adjusted to levels that are enhancing your speaker, even the midrange. Not throwing a whole bunch of bass that doesn't belong. I wouldn't have wrote this RANT if I didn't feel that some of you would really benefit from a pair of RELs with your existing system. They are very different than any other Sub system out there.
I'm going radio silent about the D'ags and the RELs now.
WCSS, it's awesome to read about your adventures. Now that you have installed (2) 20amp lines, the sound can only get better from here.
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On a personal note, I would love to see you try the 2301s again. I own a pair, and have them paired with the C-1100 pre, and Sonus Faber Stradivari speakers. I also just picked up a pair of Salon 2s, that I have yet to hook up. I know the 2301s will most likely not be enough for the Salons, but I wanted to try them, and I have a pair of JC-1s if I need more power. I don't think I could live with the JC-1s on a full time basis, after hearing the magic that the 2301s bring to the table, but maybe bi-amp, tubes on top, and 601s on bottom? BTW, thanks for sharing your adventures! This has been a very fun thread!
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Can someone explain to me why you think a 20A outlet will sound better than a 15A.
There is no logic behind that statement . If you were using a 15a outlet and not tripping the breaker, why the need for 20A outlets ?
What is different about them that will make them sound better than a 15.
I realize that they can handle 5 more amps of current , but if you are not using more than 15 amps,then tell me what makes them sound better. |
I also do not understand how a 20A outlet improves sound? |
WC, I suggest you save your money and don't bother with the Mac2301. You are in the upper echelon of refinement with your Magico, Pass, possible D'ag Progressions (somewhat reasonable price, possibly more advanced thinking than the Momentums), and of course, the Lux M900u. Pass is a more refined version of Mac, if you like sweet and rolled off highs and somewhat loose bass. I haven't heard Pass or Mac amps at home, but years ago I A/B'ed my old excellent Belles OCM 200 with a powerful Mac amp in my friend's Soundlab system. The Mac was big and round, but the Belles killed it for clarity. At home, I A/B'ed the Pass XP15 phono stage with my excellent Belles phono stage. Compared to the sparkling clear and extended Belles, the Pass was sweet but markedly rolled off, with no snap on violins and muddy plucks of the harp. By the way, the newest Belles amps are rolled off and markedly inferior in clarity to my 1995 Belles OCM 200 which still sounds good. While I can't speak for the latest Pass amps, it is generally true that there is a sound philosophy from a designer throughout most of his products--Pass admits that he doesn't go for technical accuracy but believes that audiophiles should be "happy." Happiness to the typical audiophile means the rolled off sound in mid hall. Believe me, the mid hall listener is missing most of the information content that the much closer microphones are picking up. Anyone is entitled not to like "too much treble", find happiness in the rolled off sound of mid hall, but it is not high fidelity to what is on the recording. The Magicos are telling the truth by revealing the highs on recordings, so in the name of true high fidelity they should be lived with and respected/accepted for the truth tellers they are. I still predict that the Lux M900u is the best amp out there for you. Wait till you hear their clarity with the Magico! I don't know techno_dude, but I would take his offer of trade for your Gryphon. I'm confident he would trust you if he sent you his Lux first. Then you could A/B the Lux (with your preamp) and the Gryphon. If you prefer the Lux, you just send him his Gryphon. If not, you send back the Lux, with maybe a small fee for the privilege of the A/B. I like to do business this way out of respect for the risks to the seller and his lost time.
One other thing. Many amps clip gracefully so that the clipped sound peaks don't reveal any obvious distortion. This can make it appear that the amp is very powerful, but unfortunately it means that frequent clipping is destroying the speakers. My little Bryston 2.5 clips on big peaks, and appears to be powerful, but the red flashing clipping lights tell me the truth. I don't know if the Pass 200.5 has clipping lights, but also its rolled off highs let someone push the volume higher with less obvious stress. You have noted this effect in reverse with the extended highs of the ATI Signature 6005. Pushing the volume on the ATI revealed the highs that you didn't like at that time, forcing you to keep the volume lower. But remember that live music has lots of highs, but the natural modest live volume levels prevents irritation. Nobody wants to listen to live music blasting in your face, such as a trumpeter pointing his bell at you from 5 feet away. So if anyone gets irritated by highs in his system, he is probably listening at unnaturally high volumes.
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By themselves, sockets in 20A outlets might yield marginally better electric contacts with the AC connectors on cables.
However, this is not the main benefit... Typically, 20A outlets are installed together with dedicated electric lines... Which means that the electric line from the 20A circuit breaker is not shared with any other outlet.... Hence a component connected to a dedicated 20A outlet will not be subected to pollution from any electric device connected to that breaker, nor from any grundge that could theoretically be picked up from unused outlets on the circuit.
Reality or placebo effect? I do not know, but empirically, I do prefer the sound of my system now that I am using three didicated outlets for it, vs one dedicated and one shared outlet in my old home.
G.
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brhatten, I don't know what DM means, or how to retrieve it if it is a message. I would look forward to an email from you--russlaud@gmail.com. Thanks. |
I can't seem to find what you are using as a DAC in your system. I did read that you weren't impressed with the Signature Rendu SE. Can you share what your digital front end is comprised of?
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I’m another Pass Labs convert having acquired a 150.8 to drive a pair of Thiel 2.4s which are notoriously difficult to drive WELL. Alot of Thiel owners went with the previous general of Bel Canto Class D stuff specifically the Ref 1000 mk2 monos which do have a special affinity with Thiels but the Pass is just incredible. The only possible weakness is the amp is a little forward in the mid-bass lower midrange but still full of detail and there’s a palpability in the sound that’s going to remind you of good ARC tube gear. Kent at Pass steered me away from the XA mono series and into the regular X series for my particular speakers even though I was ready to spend much much more money. It was a good decision. The X series is better suited to some speakers including for example the Salon 2s which are said to do better on the X series than with the XA. I’m using Aesthetix on the front end with their Janus although if you don’t run a table you can use the Calypso which is simply stunning gear and is largely forgotten because its not a new design. Its still awesome awesome stuff and a great combination. PS Audio directstream is the DAC and I think I like using the direcstream's usb input with a microrendu as my roon endpoint rather than using the Bridge II. I think the sound is a smidge better using the microrendu (with linear power supply). |
Ok,makes sense,I could see benefits from a dedicated line. |
Well tomorrow the 2301s hit my door... it will be interesting to see what I think of them after not owning them for 2 years.
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I am losing track: Have you guys mentioned this speaker: Paradigm Persona 9H? Tremendous reviews, especially from the Tone Audio article I pasted. Very interesting read. I really can relate to Jeff Dorgay’s reviews. He also loves the "car comparisons" to audio stuff.. much like WC. Please give it a read if you can and post your comments. Maybe some of you have heard this already? thanks mike https://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_085.pdf |
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pwhinson,
What characteristics of the Pass X makes it better than the XA for your Thiel 2.4 or the Salon 2? Technical differences, tonal differences?
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Aesthetix is a very good choice with Thiel speakers, i have demoed the Atlas monos on my CS 3.7s.Right now i'm looking at the Ayre KX-R MX-R Twenty pre-power which is suppose to be even better.
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Mcintosh 2301s are on their way. I am also thinking of using a single jl audio f212 right in the middle of both speakers for added mid bass. |
The 2301s are in the house!
stay tuned ! Updates to come later on in the day !! |
Immediate update: the 2301 kills the 601s. No contest there. |
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WCSS says...."I am also thinking of using a single JL audio f212 right in the middle of both speakers for added mid bass."
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"This is my last attempt, as to bring you your best sound possible with a REL recommendation for your listening room."----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 REL S5s running in REAL STEREO ($5,200 total) on the inside of each speaker will give you the subtle synergy with your speakers that JL audio never could.
JL audio is good for home theater systems and bass heads. It just can’t get you the synergy with your speaker that REL can. It really, I feel is not just my opinion, it’s reality.
JL Audio subs don’t a Neutrik connector that allows the leads to go to the amplifier’s speaker outputs.
PS Audio’s owner has some YouTube videos, and one is about subs. I just laughed so hard when he mentioned the best way to connect subwoofers is to the speaker outputs, and there better be 2 subwoofers. He says REL in the video with a grin.
RELs blend to the speaker’s attributes and enhance. Does JL Audio Fathoms shake the paint off the walls? Heck Yea. The RELs have a 12" carbon fiber passive radiator that shoots downward, and when some serious power is applied to the REL sub... it turns into the equivalent of 16", and comes literally out of the closet and plays ball with thunderous bass. But there is a subtle "kitty cat" there in the REL that doesn’t overpower the speakers.
The person in Las Vegas that I bought my Martin Logan Montis from had both JLs and RELs (2 each) of subs in his living room.
He’s has the same story that all people I have come across... REL is better for 2 channel sound and JLs better for home theater.
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Golden Rule: you have to use 2 subs for 2 channel sound, regardless of brand, to have the proper sound reproduction.
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If you plan on using the subs for home theater also, then JL audio will have so much more impact (but that’s home theater). You could go to the REL Reference Series subs. They are even adjustable from the listening chair with a manly remote control.
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Suncoast Audio down near you had that DEMO with the high end Magicos, Soulution power, 2 REL Reference subs a while ago.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m just having a hard time understanding why all your contacts would recommend the overbearing JL Audio sub. It’s like you’re scared to go out with the perfect girl. Ah, Humbug.
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WC, second time we catch you in an act of mid-fi love ❤️! 😂
I would bet your Mac love is rising each day you enjoy the synergy with your fabulous S5 mkii.
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Rel feels more musical based on what I heard. That said, the only reason WHY I was (not anymore) going to get a f212 is because the same person who sold me the 2301s was going to sell me his at a great deal and he was just going to bring it with him. A lot of times I try stuff again because I come up on deals. THIS IS HOW I ENDED UP WITH 2301s yet again. I wasn’t looking for them. Just like if someone called me right now and gave me a crazy deal on a pair of krell 900e. Am I looking for them ? Hell no. Would I buy a pair if a deal came to me ? Hell yes.
My wants are momentum 400s. Possibly a pair of 900u Monos again. THOSE ARE what I desire now. THIS DOES NOT MEAN I CANT BUY ANYTHING ELSE THAT COMES MY WAY AT A GOOD DEAL.
In this particular case, I had to take 3 mc2301s in order to get a deal. What the hell do I need 3 for ? Well I don’t need 3 but it’s what the deal was so I have one sitting in the corner looking all pretty. Who knows, Maybe I list it. |
Cool. I understand the DEAL. The only way to fly. Cheers
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Anyone heard the newer Krell Solo 575 monoblocks ?
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mikepaul - Whitecamaross contemplated the Paradigm Persona. Hopefully he will get to them . Great detail and imaging like stat speakers. Very impressed as I have owned stats for the last 10 years . The demo ar RMAF 2017 was terrific. |
maplegrovemusic,...ok.thanks...i hope he gets around to them..i will audition them later this week.
i've had martin logans for years and i am addicted to the sound.
i am intrigued for sure
mikepaul |
McIntosh MC2301 vs mc601:
1. 2301 is far more detailed
2. 2301 has mids that the mc601 tried to imitate but never duplicate.
3. 2301 has a larger soundstage with more air around instruments
4. 2301 has you engaged.
5. 601 has nothing on the mc2301
6. Was it a coincidence they haven’t replaced the 2301? Nope.
i don’t even need to hear the 1.2kw. I had those long enough to say that they lose to the 2301.
In my opinion, without taking the 2.0kw into account, the 2301 is THE BEST AMP from McIntosh.
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wc,
One question...Is it still mid-fi?
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C'mon Roxy, clearly it's about re-fi. 😊 |
Yes when compared to the Luxman 900u, Rowland 925. I still have those ahead. Now, let’s not forget that im enjoying these amps and I attribute this to the fact that they are the first set of tube amps I use with magico. I’m now wondering about the audio research 160m.
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Curious about the perception between the new Magicos and the Persona 9H. Have a new pair of the latter and am impressed as they break in, but limited experience with this type of speaker. Last one was Magnepan 3.7's..the intensity and power is another animal entirely....Bass is incredible tho....
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As above, another +vote for REL subwoofer. The most musical sub in the marketplace. Happy Listening! |
WC, interesting that the Mac 2301 is better in every way than the 601. This confirms my belief that bigger is often NOT better. 300 quality watts into your 4 ohm Magico is satisfying. What is the overall sonic flavor of the 2301, still rounded and tubey compared to the best SS you have had, such as Lux M9000u, Simaudio, Levinson 532, etc.? Audio Research is still probably the most accurate of tubes. How about the GS150 you loved some time ago? ONLY 150 watts, but remember quality is more important than quantity. The GS150 is probably the most accurate and refined tube amp out there. I bet the big D'ag is inferior to the GS150 in those respects, although it will have more balls. And the Lux M900u still the champ of all, unless you want to spend big bucks for the Rowland M925.
Also, you haven't commented recently about your Gryphon with the Magico. Maybe it is not in the running, so why don't you talk with techno_dude for his trade on the Lux? |
GS150 is a dog which dealers have been dumping..or trying to.. for the past year or so. Has lots of issues. The latest AR Tube (160M) is far and away the best Amp they have ever produced. Also has Auto Biasing. Might want to read up on it |
Gryphon sounds good with magico. No question about it. However the ref10 and McIntosh 2301 is far more musical and engaging. I’m starting to feel like magico does wonderful with a full tube set up. It becomes such an amazing combo. Tweeter doesn’t get hot, bigger mids, Fuller sound etc. |
RIAA...Which ARC stereo amp might be close to the performance of the mac 2300 monos? |
A friend of mine wants to bring his bhk300 Monos and do a shootout against my 2301s. Lol oh damn. What if the 2301s got smoked by ps audio ?
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MP, Mac 2301 is over a decade old in technology. I havent been around long enough to know AR equipment from that long ago. For me MAC and AR are in entirely different ballparks and are not comparable. SOTA vs Mid-Fi...and priced accordingly |
Concur with RIAA - I am an original owner of ARC CL 120's/ SP 10 and for the first time thinking of the new 160's...and a new pre... |
I had a feeling you would like the 2301s with Magico. I don’t know what tubes you are running in them, but the Gold Lions are quite a step up from stock, and bring the output up to about 340 watts.
Yes they are decade old technology, but they are very special amps. Like WCSS said, they just pull you into the music. The emotional connection is there, and that’s what it’s all about.
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i will tell you all, even though the 2301s are indeed a 10 year old design, it is the tubes that makes them sound as if they weren't an old outdated design. i am telling you, i sat here until 3am listening to them and they sounded great with my ref10. When my 200.8s arrive, we will see what they can do. Hell, i may have a pair of 900u monos by then as well and do a full shootout between 3 mono block companies. |
