Thanks whitecamaross! Great info!!
Dave
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Ok. So where can I get an Odeon? I want to pair it with Aerial Acoustics speakers for HT and occasional 2 Ch listening... (Would it be a good match for 4ohm speakers at 86dB?) |
Send me a private message |
Also, Have you ever listened to a Krell TAS (Theater amp Standard)? Aren't those supposed to be pretty amazing?
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Yes i owned it. Good amp but runs too hot and they tend to go back to krell to get recapped because overtime the capacitors begin to leak due to the heat.
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The big update i have is that as many of you know, I find the weak link in my set up to be my preamp. I tried the c2500, classe cp800 and McIntosh mx122. So far, I feel I can get more out of the mc2301s. With that said, I have ordered the reference mark Levinson no52 preamplifier. This would be the most expensive component that I have ever owned at $30,000. Reviews are speaking as if this is the last preamp to own. I can't wait to hear this machine. Also, I will be taking a stab at the bel canto m600 monoblocks. These are class d amps and according to a good friend of money who owns far superior gear to what I own, he claims the bel canto will kill my mc2301s. I don't personally believe it but coming from his mouth is certainly enough to make me want to try them out. I don't personally like class d amps because I find them too fatiguing but I have not tried these and they are supposed to be amazing and smooth so here I go again. If these bel canto which retail at 6,000 per pair can take out the $24,000 mc2301s, this will be the biggest upset to my audiophile ears. I simply don't think this will be the case but if they do, I will have to completely redo my set up. Stay tuned, things are just about to start getting interesting. :) |
Going to the dark side with class D ? Look forward to these reviews ! Put Exogal Comet/Ion on the list to audition please . |
i am very interested in hearing your reviews of these. Your posts are very informative. |
Thanks guys. I am also very curious to hear all these. The mark Levinson no52 has certainly grabbed all of my attention and I can't wait to hear what it can do with these 2301s. I may also have a chance to try the no536 Levinson monos which are even more money than the 2301s. |
Your review are so great Whitecamaross, I was wondering if you still consider what your wrote before after all the tests you did... " To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination." I discard the Anthem brand for amp after what you said, I’m 80/20 movies/music using ascend sierra tower all RAAL ribbon (Google them if you can) , they seems to be very neutral. A per your recommendation about Classe 5200 ... Do you think they’re a benefit going with two amp, one Classe 3200 and one 2200 in my setup? Am using an Anthem d2v for pre-amp and emotiva xpa5 for amp. My setup is a little to bright for my taste. Thanks
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Hi, yes, multiple amps are always better than one single amp but you need to have a good power plant like a furman or a ps audio p10 which I really believe is the best power plant available. The brightness that you refer to is because emotiva and anthem sound indeed like that together with your speakers. If you need to warm things up a little then use an anthem amp or classe. I don't like any anthem amplifier that is not their statement amps. Stick to their statement stuff. |
whitecamaross, I have a couple of subject areas to cover. The first is this...
You stated: "If you are a person who worries a lot about heat, pass Labs, old krell,
plinius, old delta classe are all amps you should never ever consider.
Those are heat guns".
I use a Plinius SA-103 and part of my research into this amp indicated the heat issue. However, in practice I don't really notice it getting very hot. I usually use it in class A/B instead of pure class A so I'm curious about how you used it and your experience with the heat issue.
The second thing is about pre's so I'm glad you mentioned them. It has always been my non-scientific opinion that the best way to obtain synergy between the two is to use components from the same manufacturer. I therefore use the Tautoro pre-amp and am quite happy with it. I would appreciate any discussion/feedback on matching components. It just seems to me that trying to match components from different manufacturers would present more challenges.
Oh, also curious about which model Furman you use.
As others have stated, I very much appreciate you sharing your experiences.
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I am looking to possibly get into some of the new ATI Class D amps. I wonder if you have had a chance to hear those. I know they are supposed to be similar to the Theta Class D amps, but I wonder just how different they would be. This seems to be the future, but I am more interested in the ergonomics of the ATI Class D amps (Size, weight, power consumption, etc...) so I wonder if I am really going to miss anything with them as opposed to other multi channel amplifier options... I also only want one amp if possible. |
I've heard that the ATI Class D amps have a bit more energy than the Theta Dreadnaught D. A lot of folks really seem to like both of these amps. I had the Theta DD for a while.
Dave
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I'll chime in briefly on this topic. I use two Sanders Magtech monoblocks with a McIntosh C2300 on my Martin Logan Summit X's. The Magtech has received excellent reviews and they sound great. I also experimented with other amps...a vintage McIntosh MC2255 and a Mark Levinson 532h. I preferred the Magtech's |
ok guys, sorry for the long Hiatus here. I have since my last update used and auditioned the following amps:
Belcanto Ref600 monoblocks Simaudio 860A stereo amplifier
ok, so with that said, here is my update:
Belcanto Ref600 monoblocks: Amazing bass control and massive power. These amps really are the steal of the century and as good as my 2301 tube monoblocks were, i ended up parting ways with them after i heard these class d amplifiers. I did tons of a/b comparisons and i was extremely impressed with the amount of detail and smoothness that these class d amps have. I will go on record and say that these are the best class d amps i have ever heard and really made me question why we need to spend more money on other more pricy amplifiers. The highs were smooth, midrange was good and great bass. The music never fell apart when driven hard. It remained really composed without any strain of any kind. Nothing really bad to say here. It runs cool, weighs very little, can be put anywhere in your room. I will say that this is a sign of where we are headed in years to come. More efficient amps, more power, less heat and less weight. Great amp for the money!!
Simaudio 860A: This amp was a rare opportunity for me. However, i bought my renaissance speakers when i first them being pushed by a simaudio 860a with the 850p reference preamp (amazing synergy). when i first plugged in this amp it sounded a bit cold, sterile, lifeless, not much bass and punch. I was very disappointed to say the least, but i proceeded to leave it on for about 4 days and later came back to audition. It was now a different animal. It had gobbs of bass attack, and a level of detailed high frequency that i can only remember hearing from a class A power amplifier. I had approximately 5 days of play time and listened at low and high volume levels and i must say this amp possessed the finesse and punch that the bel canto did not have for me. It contained some of the silkiest highs i have ever heard with zero listening fatigue even after hours of listening. It never made me cringe or want to turn it down. I will say, this amp is perhaps the biggest competition to the pass labs 250.5 or 250.8 or even the 350.5. If you have speakers that need more detail and OOMPH on the low end, do not look any further than this amp. It runs extremely cool to the touch even after hours of listening and it is perhaps one of the most visually appealing amps i have ever owned. If pass labs amplifiers are too much heat for your current room, THIS IS your amp. It is really a reference power amplifier with the bass that i probably can't recall ever hearing. I would say in terms of bass punch, it is as punchy as a pass labs 350.5, but with a better midrange. The only thing the pass labs 350.5 has over it is the extra horsepower, but that is it. In my opinion, this is damn close to a pass labs power amp in terms of sound but without the crazy amount of heat. Highly recommended! |
alright guys, i have updated above the last 2 amps and my impressions. I am currently auditioning my most expensive purchase and let me tell you, it isn't cheap, but my ears are just not believing what they are hearing. Stay tuned, i will come back and let you all know what amp this is.... The only thing i will say is that it weighs 250 lbs per mono! |
.....and we certainly look forward to your post.
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Wow. 250lbs per mono? Thats insane! lol |
Not many are that big and heavy. I seem to remember Symphonic Line Kraft being about that big. |
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Very nice review!!! What is the name of the expensive Beast ......cant wait to see who that might be!!!
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@whitecamaross,
I agree with your assessment of Ref600M, class D has come a long way. While I have not tried Ref600, I had some experience with Red Dragon Audio S500 and Merrill's Veritas mono's. The Veritas sounded the best with my 800D2's over S500. While S500 in BTL mode had more power, the Veritas outclassed the S500 in speed and deeper background. The smooth mid-range and the bass simply had more slam and accuracy. They are not cheap but with true balanced differential design, larger power supply and over the top design philosophy begs an audition for anyone in the market for a high performance SS amps.
BTW, Veritas smoked the McIntosh MC601's in low frequencies. |
very interesting observation. I will have to try those some day. yes. i do believe class d will eventually be the future and at a much cheaper price point. That said, i know some of you are probably wondering what these monster amps i am playing with right now are... Well, they are a 2 chassis monoblock which makes the total weight of 250 lbs per mono. Monstrous sound which has everyone who has come to listen to them this past weekend leave my house with their jaws on the floor. It is by far the most complete sound i have ever heard in my room. |
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OK guys, so i have decided to disclose the amps that i have been using for the past 2 days... i was not looking for these amps, but i came up on a great deal and decided to give them a shot and let me say that yesterday i sat down at 3pm and listened to music until 3am this morning.. i couldn't get off the couch. It was just impossible to leave my room because of how amazing these amps sound. With that said, i am now the proud owner of pass labs XS150 mono blocks!! :) I am just on another planet now in terms of sound. It feels as if i got brand new ears and i am learning to enjoy every single cd, mp3, dsd file that i own. It is really an impressive amplifier and i don't see anything that can come close to its sound quality. Here are a few things i can already say: 1. Mouth-watering high frequencies. These are smooth, silky and with a level of detail and organic feeling that is almost impossible to believe.
2. Midrange: very full bodied, not overblown, and it seems to be as big as the space between both front speakers.
3. Bass: OMG! It pressurizes the room. It almost feels as if the woofers extend far enough to touch my listening chair.
The separation is so big that you feel like you can walk in between the instruments. It is a really incredible and magical experience and it should be because these are $65,000 dollar mono blocks. That said, the improvement was MASSIVE in all regards. The only downfall would be that if you push these puppies hard then the temperature rises and they can get hot. It is important to have a room that is not tiny or else your lower legs will be sweating. You need to have enough ventilation in the room. That said, i am going to be selling the simaudio amp and bel canto ref600s in order to recuperate some of the money that i have invested into these Pass Labs XS150s. Let me know if anyone is interested :) |
I think you should post all of your used amps! You have quite the following and I am sure they will all sell rather quickly!!
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Congratulations whitecamaross! I wouldn't mind owning a pair of those myself, if I could pick them up for under $10k. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll live that long. Do you think you've found true love or are there more amps to go in this story? Enjoy! |
thank you guys. i love these amps to say the least and they will be with me for as long as i can keep them. i want to just experiment with different speakers and preamps, etc. As a matter of fact, i used my sonus faber olympica 3s last night with these amps and it made those speakers sing like NEVER before. It was impressive to see what real quality watts can do to a speaker. |
That said, i have listed the simaudio 860a stereo amplifier (against my will). This amp is a giant killer in disguise. I felt it had more "quality watts" than my krell 402e, mark levinson 532h, krell duo 300, classe ctm600 monos, classe ca2200, bryston 4bsst3, 4bsst2, pass labs xa30.8, belcanto 600s. I have it at the top of my list in terms of overall sound. It lacks nothing and really uncovers all the hidden music that you don't hear through other amps. Very composed with iron fist bass control. I tried it with my sonus olympica 3s and the synergy is OUTSTANDING to say the least. |
If I could have a mono for each channel of my home theater setup and price did not matter, the XS amps from Pass Labs would be my dream setup. I'd have to get a different room/house too :-) However, since I'm going with a multi-channel amp, I'm still thinking about the Plinius Odeon might some day/year make it to my system.
Dave
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Whitecamaross, what do you mean by more "quality watts?"
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@jrunr - my guess is that it's good sonics
@whitecamaross - I'm going to speak for myself, but perhaps others might agree - I absolutely enjoy your journey with these amps, even though I might not ever own many of them. I was actually hoping you would try the XA200.8 before the XS series, to see how it compares to the other amps you have tried. I'm sure it's a very big step up from the XA30.8 that you had, and may have beat the X250.8. Of course, then I would have really been curious what you would think about the XS series, and here we are. Congrats on the amps!
Dave
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Nice exchange of info here guys. Simaudio has come a long way for sure. No doubt that Pass Labs is the best in SS currently. Mate those amps w/ a Conrad Johnson tubed pre-amp and you will be musically rewarded!
Happy Listening!
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I'm sure it's a very big step up from the XA30.8 that you had, and may have beat the X250.8. I am also curious how the relatively affordable X250.8 stacks up to the not so affordable XS150. |
It's 6.5 times the price of the 250.8... so think of it as comparing a 20k Toyota Corolla against a 120k Porsche Panamera... far different and more powerful. It costs about 50 cents per hour to have these monoblocks turned on idling. That's equivalent to having 25 light bulbs turned on... by comparing this amp to the xs, you skipped the 350.8, 600.8, xa100.8, 160.8, 200.8... the bass is sledgehammered out of your woofers. The highs linger in the air much longer, the midrange is balanced without any howling of any kind. Comparing the 250.8 against the xs is not a good comparison. Totally unfair. |
That is not what I wanted to hear.....hahaha |
The simaudio 860a is another pass Labs 250.8 but without the heat and the 10 year warranty doesn't hurt either. The simaudio is a real treat and probably the smoothest amp under 15k that I've owned. I would give the simaudio 860a the edge in terms of bass over the 250.8. |
Mmmm.....simaudio has the Moon Evolution MC-8 multi-channel amp - perhaps something to consider on the multi-channel side of things? Requires 240V though :-)
Dave
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Whitecamaross, 50c hour x 24= $12 day x 365 days= $4380 year assuming a 35% tax bracket = $6738.46 income needed before taxes just to keep these sitting @ idle! 😳 Not to metion the added electric bill for aircon etc... Aaaah thanks but with those kinds of XS’s I’ll Pass.😎 On another note; how does your Moon 860 compare to the older w7 you had? |
I bought a Magnus Audio MA-300 after I talked to a Pass Labs dealer from Colorado. Don't believe me? Just call John at JM Sounds, he will verify my story. I have owned Burmester 911 MK3, Hegel, Chapter Audio, Symphonic Line RG1 MK3 and Graff Audio GM-100. I upgraded the capacitors in my MA-300 to those found in the MA-500, and it is the best amp I have owned.
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Have you tried a recent .8 series Pass Labs in your system? Did you buy the MA-300 from the dealer you mentioned?
Dave
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No on the .8 series. I bought my MA-300 from JM Sounds.
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The 860a simaudio is far superior to the w7. They may look alike but sound different. i keep saying it, the sim audio 860a is a giant killer. I'd take a simaudio 860a before i touch a mcintosh 452. To be totally honest, i would say that musically speaking the simaudio and pass labs are by far the most musical amps i have owned. Plinius would certainly be up there. The issue is that most of us get caught up with power ratings when in reality that does not tell the whole story. Hell, i am only pushing 150 watts per mono with these pass labs xs150 amps and they are the most engaging, pleasant watts i have had. These amps actually teach you that you don't have to blast your music to hear all the detail and punch. They do this at any volume level and to be very honest, these pass labs sound better at moderate to low volume than at loud levels. I see it as a pro because it keeps you from blowing your eardrums off. i love everything about them except the massive heat. Right now, i picked up a krell duo 300 and have been playing with it today and i like what i hear. For a minute there, i was like holy crap this amp sounds good when connected to my mark levinson no52 preamp. i kept listening and i was very engaged in its sound so while i was listening to it, i had the pass labs turned on getting warmed up. I proceeded to connect them to my speakers and yes, the change in sound was quite obvious. The highs come crawling at you. The bass vibrates your chair and they don't have to be cranked up. That said, the reason why some people say they can't hear a difference in sound is because most people don't have another amp to do a direct a/b comparison. That is really the easiest way to hear a big change in sound if there is any. If i didnt own the pass labs, i would have been happy with the krell/levinson combination, but as soon as i A/B them, it is game over. |
How would you compare the Krell Duo to the Levinson 532H? Are they comparable? You had said before that they are just incredible amps so I am wondering if there is a tangible difference between those two...
(It is absolutely awesome that we ave a resource like you on here who has so much experience with each of these components! Please keep the info coming!) |
Thank you. I believe this hobby would be much easier if we all shared information with each other. That said, the 532h has great detail. I remember that amp wowing me when I first owned it. Tons of background detail that I never knew was even there. However, the krell duo has more bass and it's built a lot more robust. This is a tricky question for me and I think both amps are great but what will determine what is best for you is your application and speakers. Both have great detail and nice midrange but the bass is better with the krell. The midrange is a little better on the Levinson. The highs are detailed on both. |
Next up in the near future:
pass labs xa160.5 pass labs xa100.8
I would love to try the 200.5s but i can't justify the price jump from the 160.5s to the 200.5s. I am also looking into perhaps giving the paradigm personas a try although i am such an electrostatic head. I find every speaker i have owned sound narrow and not as HUGE as electrostatics panels. I am unfortunately poisoned by their big sound spread. I tried to replace my Renaissance speakers 3 different times and kept going back to them so it is fair to say that i am part of the electrostatic panel clan..
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Whitecamaross,
thanks for the input on the 860a, my concern is whether their Stereophile reported output of 180@8 & 290@4 would be sufficient to drive a pair of Magnepan 3.7is? I have a new 532h waiting for me at home which I haven’t heard yet due to being stuck overseas, but am hoping it would be sufficient for those speakers...otherwise I was thinking of trying out the moon w8. Lastly, what year is your ss (the Camaro)? |