My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Whitecamaross - I continue to enjoy this thread. I find it interesting how our tastes are different. Everyone hears music differently. An example, I use to have Wilson speakers now I have the Sonus Faber Tradition Homage Amati speakers. You use to have Sonus Faber Il Cremonese and now you have Wilson Sasha 2's. I absolutely loved the Il Cremonese compared to the Wilson's. If I recall, you liked the Il Cremonese but they did not blow your socks off. Most of us do not have your connections to get equipment, a spouse that will allow you to do what you do, or the budget to finding your best system. So my question to you that would help all of us would be....If your budget was $15k, $25k, $35k or even $40k what amp / pre amp would you recommend at each price point. I know it is hard as I am not telling you what speakers they go with. I am looking for your general opinion. THX |
Guido: the Rowland’s sound incredible and I was using the Rowland Capri preamp! I cranked it up very loud and to my surprise they never felt compressed, or shouty. The sound just grew more and more and you almost don’t realize that it’s louder. ____________________________ Re: M925s--Capri S2 and Corus: @whitecamaross From reading this thread it is clear that you like to crank it up loud. Because of this fact, IMO you would notice a vast difference between the Corus and Capri S2 in your system. I know a dealer told you that you get 90% of the Corus in the Capri S2. Respectfully, at the volumes you listen at, the 90% estimate is probably a bad guess. What you describe above is on steroids with the Corus. The M925s with the Corus will play very very loud and always be smooth and sound like there is still plenty of headroom left IME. |
Hi WC, I am not surprised that you are enjoying M925 + Capri S2.... I heard Rowland M825 (stereo version of 925) + Capri S2 driving Joseph Audio Pearl 3 speakers a couple of years at RMAF in the Cardas room. The system was all connected and powered with Cardas Clear Beyond. It was absolutely enchanting and immersive... Enormous stage from which instruments and vocalists emerged with incredible presence and zero fatigue. At each visit I had to spend a couple hours in the suite because I could never have enough of the magic.
Worth mentioning that Rowland, Joseph Audio, and Cardas have been partnering a lot at audio shows, because they share phylosophy of sound, and to my ears there really is so much synergy among the three brands... As of late, they were together at Expona and the Munich show.
BTW, for speaker wires I suggest you give a try the new Cardas Clear Beyond XL flagship... For ICs and speaker wires the flagship is Clear Beyond.... The new XL line is only on PCs.
In terms of break-in requirements, I have discovered that Cardas seems to be quite benign.... Some 4 days of crunching signals should give you a reasonable idea of their capabilities.... and a total of 2 weeks will bring out most of the magic of the loom. Note that if you are currently trying Clear, I understand that there is a big difference between Clear and Clear Beyond. At my end, I have very recently completed break-in of a full Cardas loom. My system consists of Rowland M925, Rowland Aeris DAC +PSU ultracapacitor power supply, Vienna Die Muzik speakers, Esoteric X-01 used as transport)... Power cords are XL, and Cardas Reflection ICs and speaker wires.... Reflection being some two or three levels below Beyond.... What my system now gives me overall is grand. I am stunned that it is markedly superior to anything it has done until now. I am sorely tempted to eventually jump up from Reflection signal wires all the way to Clear Beyond... Meantime I am busy writing a detailed report on my experience with the current Cardas loom... I will post it to Audiogon as soon as it is ready.
Guido |
@ whitecamaross I think you should try the Tekton Double Impact speakers . They are very affordable and they allow you to hear cable and component changes better than any speaker that i have ever heard. I’ll bet that i can get some agreement on that. Besides they are a speaker that most of us can afford. It would be nice to see some affordable stuff reviewed. What happened with the Pass Labs XA-25 that was on order ? |
Mike: the Sopra 3 are a good detailed speaker. They remind me a lot of the revel salon 2s in many ways. They don’t have the big soundstage depth that the Wilson Sasha’s have. They have balanced sound with pretty much just about everything you could ask given their price point. I think they are the best bang for the buck from focal if you ask me. Guido: the Rowland’s sound incredible and I was using the Rowland Capri preamp! I cranked it up very loud and to my surprise they never felt compressed, or shouty. The sound just grew more and more and you almost don’t realize that it’s louder. Bukirob: the 15a renaissance is an outstanding speaker when matched with audio research and pass labs. You don’t even have to listen to this combo. I can vouch for it. Anything with tubes will sound spectacular on Electrostatics. Tonight: I plan on listening to the Rowland’s connected to the p20 only to see what happens to the sound. I also want to go back to cardas speaker cables and see what I hear aftern using wireworld silver 7 for the last 2 weeks. Lastly, I will be getting my gryphon components next Wednesday so next week will be special !! |
@whitecamaross After reading the entire thread, It seems to me if you are a person just getting into this hobby without 50K plus to drop into it, would you say a good place to start would be with Martin Logan 15A speakers and a Pass Labs (thinking the 250) amp with a decent DAC? Between the speakers and the Pass amp your pushing ~ 20k right? |
The decibel meter is reading peaks of 107 decibels right now. I am 8 feet away from the speakers. zero compression, zero distortion, zero shoutiness, zero anything. Impressive how dynamic the wilson audio speaker is. Massive slam, punch that knocks you in your chest cavity, and the rowlands are almost winking at me asking for more volume... |
So far, it is going to be difficult to let go of my Wilson Sasha 2s. i went to listen to a few different speakers today which included Magnepan, Kef, focals and i STILL prefer my sasha 2s over those. I was contemplating to bring a second pair of speakers to battle it out with my Wilsons and i just DO NOT SEE any speaker close in price to mine that i have the desire to purchase. I thought focal sopra 3s, focal scala, kef blade 2s, magnepan 20.7 and they did not improve on what i currently have. Everything was either worse or too close. i realize i would have to spend about -10k MORE dollars more in order to begin to hear any sort of improvement over my Wilson's. |
I just sat down after not listening to music for about 4 days and the luxman 900u with Rowland 925s is just insane. Buttery smooth, clean, detailed, glorious mids, nice soundstage, no fatigue. If I didn’t have the Rowland, one would think this is a Luxman set up because the Rowland amps transfer the sound signature of the Luxman preamp but in a bigger way than the single 900u amp. |
That’s my fear. I need to make sure I don’t go backwards. The Wilsons aren’t going anywhere unless a better speaker walks through my living room. Ive thought of focal maestros, magico s5, etc. Nothing is concrete until I feel confident about the switch. To be honest the only speaker I’d like to bring back is the 15a or the clx. Those I know for a fact have a place in my heart. |
WC, years ago I was taken by the wall to wall soundstage of large Magnepans. But planar magnetics/ribbons have less resolution than the best electrostatics. Also, large transducers have time smear due to different arrival times from the top to your ears versus ear level, etc. When I compared the Maggie 20 to the 3, the 20 had more bass and power of course, but the highs were rolled off compared to the 3. Of course, the HF ribbons are excellent, but the tonal balance of the 20 was shifted toward lower frequencies. |
I think the vast majority of readers of this thread understand your decision regarding the preamplifiers. Preference will vary depending on the particular audio system make up.REF 10 better here and the Luxman better there. We get it. There's art to putting a system together and most experienced audiophiles/music lovers acknowledge that. Charles |
Hi guys, what you all need to remember is that I praised the ref10 with my salon 2s and quite frankly if I still had those speakers, I’d still have the ref10. That said, I don’t feel Wilson audio sounds the best when using tube preamps. I feel it might sound good if it was a full tube set up but not with tube preamp and solid state amp. This makes sense because Wilson is displayed quite often with dan Agostino components. I am moving forward and have not decided 100% if I want to sell my luxman preamp. Why ? Because I will be trying more speakers at some point and having different components on hand will be fun to try. Speaking of speakers, anyone tried Magnepan 20.7? I am contemplating a pair but I don’t know just yet... I heard a pair like 2 years ago at a dealer and I thought they sounded dull. That said, the components used weren’t at the level of what I own so may be thats why ? I am really really getting an itch to try those even though I was told to go for the 30.7 but those are just too big for my room. Anyone care to give me their feedback on them? Reviews are stellar but you all know how I feel about them... I rather ask you all here what your opinion is. Are they like electrostatics? Small sweet spot? Difficult to place? What do they do best ? What are their weaknesses other than not enough oomph? Looking forward to all your comments. Lastly, I can’t say what gryphon piece or pieces are coming to me until they are here. I know gryphon monitors my thread and reads it. They keep tight control of their equipment which is actually a great thing. I want to only disclose what I got once it’s at my door. Dealers DO NOT give discounts on new gryphon product so don’t even try... I’ve tried and tried lol and you all know I TRY and I failed. If you want gryphon, prepare to pay full price unless you buy from Europe. That is like the Louie Vuitton brand. When did you ever see any on sale in their store? Never... just doesn’t happen |
Hi Chazzzy07, The Rowland 925 has set a very high reference point. I'm assuming the Gryphon will be mono blocks (Which model?) so my curiosity is high to read what sonic differences are discovered between the two esteemed power amplifiers. It could be a matter of which amplifier is more synergistic with the Luxman preamplifier and current cables. I don't see a "loser" in this scenario but rather an issue of taste and system compatibility. We shall see. Charles |
@charles1dad It’s interesting though that the reason @whitecamaross is liking the Luxman/Rowland combo more is because it sounds more ’tubelike’ which is why in general the tube pre-amp + solid state amp usually is a winner especially with difficult to drive speakers. The Ref 10 and the Rowland’s more neutral presentations play into that no doubt. |
Chazzzy007, I use a tube power amplifier ( SET mono blocks) and a tube preamplifier and without any question it’s the best sound quality I have ever had in my home. However virtually everything is situational when it comes to High End audio and constructing a home system. Your idea of tube preamp and solid-state amplifier is a recipe for success that has worked for many audiofiles. Yet for whitecamaross an all solid-state signal chain (Luxman and Jeff Rowland) is giving him the best sound he has had thus far in his home. Once again an example that there is no one or single best way to put together a system. It just depends on many variables and the particular circumstance. It will be interesting and informative to read how the Gryphon performs in his system. Many roads do lead to Rome. Charles |
Let me as well share my appreciation for this journey that you are sharing with us, so thank you. What I appreciate even more is your ability to stand by your values even though from time to time there are many members that suggest changes in the way you do what you do, and you keep walking your path. So so keep walking like you did from your first post! lets see if the Gryphon can speak to your heart... |
I’m very partial to tube components but tube power amplifier is a considerably different circumstance from tube preamplifiers. So much depends on amplifier and speaker load interaction. With the Wilson speakers I can understand the desire to stick with solid state amplifiers when all factors are considered. There are tube power amplifiers the would be suitable but there are fewer options overall going this route. Simpler to remain with transistors in my opinion. Charles |
I’ve noticed a significant change in the way you are describing your system recently. When you started the thread you explained that you did not want to consider tubes because your system needed to integrate with a home theater. However, since having the Ref10 in your system you started describing favorable sonics as “tube like”. Ok, so I think it’s time for you to start considering some tube amps. You would be perfect to give us an unbiased comparison of class A, class AB, class D and tubes. Your journey has been fun to watch... |
we shall see what this is all about... It will take ONE HELL of a combination to best my rowland set up. Right now, it is at the top of everything i have owned. I love everything and yes i could nit pick and say things that i wish it did do, but there is no real reason for that. Nothing is really perfect. The rowland capri s2 is surprisingly good with the 925s. We will what Gryphon has. :) |
update: i tried all 3 preamps with the Rowland’s and chord Dave and here is what my results are in terms of the best preamp with my jeff rowland amps: 1. Luxman 900u: amazing synergy. Incredible smoothness, liquidity, detail, outrageous mids. 2. Ref 10: huge wall to wall soundstage. Good detail, good mids, but gets a bit bright sounding if cranked up too hard. The best overall soundstage but loses to the luxman in terms of sweetness. 3. Rowland Capri s2: good synergy, detail, bass is awesome, amazing volume response. It gives you a good idea of the potential of the 925s but fails to fully deliver it. It also sounds as if there’s a curtain in front of music at times. For the money, this is one hell of a preamp. Overall, you can see that the luxman steals this show. Why ? Well it’s got much more synergy with my speakers and amps. If I still had my salon 2s, I wouldn’t be shocked if I’d still choose the ref10 but it’s a matter of system synergy. If I go back to Martin Logan Renaissance then maybe the ref10 goes up to the top. Who knows. As far as sources, the luxman d08u is just as detailed, clear and amazing sounding as the chord Dave plus it adds a world class sacd player. Its sound quality is more analog which adds warmth to the music that sometimes is needed. If you want a clear, analog like source with a reference sacd player then the luxman d08u is it. I select the chord Dave for me for 2 reasons: 1. It can be used as a preamp in I ever wanted to use it. 2. Because it can be used as a preamp, it has far more volume than any other source I’ve owned. 3. My Wilson speakers are a tad warm sounding so the added “brightness” the chord Dave has actually works for me. That said, if I had forward sounding speakers like focals, paradigm personas, klipsch horns etc then the luxman is what you need. |
