The description of the Boulder isn’t " neutral " it has a sonic signature of cold/cool, analytical, sterile/clinical. If you were in a room and someone was singing , playing the piano, guitar, saxophone etc. If this was done without use of electronics or amplification then you have pure natural or neutral sound (nothing but you and performer in the shared space).
The result would anything but cold or sterile (quite the opposite, vibrant, rich and very emotionally engaging interaction with the musicians) as the Boulder is described above by whitecamaross . Nope, the Boulder has a signature and it isn’t "neutral".
Charles |
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Nice findings -whitecamaross
make sure that you have a few marathon listening sessions, 8, 10, 12 hours of listening, to ensure that one product does induce fatigue over the others (at this performance/price level). This practice is an excellent tool for evaluating any product.Happy Listening!
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3 hours into the listening session at low to less than moderate volume levels and the luxman keeps its distance from the diablo 300. The loudness button on the luxman is incredible. If you have neighbors, a wife that complains about you blasting music too loud at night (mine complains) or you just don’t want to bother others, then this button saves your life.
I will say the luxman may lose to the gryphon in massive attack when cranked up and also sometimes i may hear a little better separation on the gryphon. Soundstage size is really the same. If you have hungry speakers then the gryphon would be perfect. This does not mean the luxman won’t work, but if you get trigger happy and decide to blast it really loud then the luxman may not flex enough muscle for you at that volume level, but the gryphon won’t have an issue.
Lastly, those of you who are "purists" and against the loudness feature on the luxman, all you need to know is that i am trying to find enjoyment at any volume level and this button does the trick. Most other amps fall apart at low volume levels unless it's pure class a power. If being a "purist" means i need to hear my music sound like garbage because i can't use a certain feature then i don't want that component. All those brands that are proud to be "neutral" are the type of brands of stay away from. Here are a few brands i can tell you what their sound signature is like:
Luxman: smooth, silky, detailed, big soundstage, zero fatigue
Rowland: lively feeling to the music as if you were at the venue listening in person.
Gryphon: Big, bold, powerful, amazing bass control (hercules sound signature)
Classe: Dark sounding, laid back and relaxed.
Hegel: Amazing bottom end control, not bright, not laid back. Powerful sounding
Mark Levinson: Amazing mids, good highs, so so bass control
You may be wondering, then who the hell is dead neutral with no sound signature? well... Boulder would be that brand. Too cold, sterile, neutral, no sound signature of any kind which makes it a hell of a challenge to make it sound the way you want it. |
i can understand that. I do believe that "old school" design is more reliable. Think about it, what if the screen on the gryphon went out? you can't turn it on or off or listen to it, but if the meters on the luxman went out you can still fire it up and listen. I can't lie, for the money it is very hard to beat luxman. My step father still has a luxman integrated he bought back in 1994 and it just finally went bad. That is 24 years of flawless performance. What else can you possibly ask for? Anytime i have owned luxman i always felt like i don't ever have to worry about it breaking. Just a sense of trust. |
I would never buy an equipment without a physical volume knob. Nothing beats a physical vol knob.
Contrary to what all reviewers think, i personally dislike chunky, fancy, heavy remote. Becos remotes get thrown around, dropped, sit on and prone to failure. Best to keep it light, durable and simple. The gryphon remote is chunky and stand on legs. |
Hahahah. Yep, I hope gryphon keeps reading my thread. They need to make their products nicer looking. Why do the top Japanese brands make such gorgeous equipment and some domestic brands like rogue, constellation, ps audio etc look like some stuff you find at someone’s garage sale ? |
The Gryphon looks like it should have wheels and clean your carpet like a Roomba |
Ok so it’s a dog fight here today... I left my Luxman on since I got it last Friday and now it’s an entire different animal. I pushed both hard just now and the Luxman just stays smooth, no shouting, no nothing. Now the gryphon is sounding darker and less detailed than the Luxman. Oh crap ! |
Riaa: you stole the words out of my mouth. You nailed it. Gryphon isn’t making a fashion statement. The Luxman integrated exposes how ugly it is. Of course if all you have in your room is the gryphon then you don’t have another piece to compare it to
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Great points about the looks. I have known folks who have bought amps for their looks and others who have not bought amps because of looks. Of course, amps that look beautiful to some might not be attractive to others. That must be a tough thing for an amp company.
I myself don't care as much about looks - I am all about performance. If I was looking for something like the Diablo had killer sound in my price-point, I wouldn't care about the looks. In fact, Predator-like looks would do me just fine :-)
Dave
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Hey Chazzy, The Diablo looks like a BLACK Xerox Copier/Fax Machine. If that thing was Off-White or Tan in color you would think it belongs on a secretary’s desk. Im sure it sounds wonderful thou. If they ever redesign its looks to something acceptable I will be sure to pick one up. The fact that MANY people think the looks is a problem (go on other Forums) suggests the company should rethink its design. When people discuss MAC, Luxman, D’agostino or any other high end brands (based on their appearance) you rarely hear that as a reason why somebody WONT buy their product. I dont care if 50-60% of the Audiophile community LOVES the Gryphon looks....You cant afford to have 40-50% not want it simply because its not something they want to be prominently displayed in their room/rack. They are losing plenty of potential sales, including mine, just based on that alone which is NOT good in this small niche audiophile market. |
Regarding the Gryphon Diablo 300...which sources were used to come to your conclusion on "careful selection"? Thanks. diablo: big bass, detailed, amazing speaker control. It can get a tad bright when cranked up. Source needs to be carefully selected with this piece. |
I'd never call the Diablo ugly. It's minimalist, uncluttered and modern. I quite appreciate it's looks and sound. |
I would agree with Charles - if based solely on what WC wrote about the three, my choice would be the Luxman.
Dave
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I would say yes the luxman is better. |
Whitecamaross & others how would the 509 x compared to the 590 ax II ? Is Luxman better than Pass int-60? |
Perhaps a case of reading interpretation but The Luxman sonic description by WC is the antithesis of so called low fi. My interpretation is that the Luxman 509x is fabulous sounding. If I had to rely "solely" on the written description of WC the Luxman 509x would be my choice.
Charles |
585: good mids and highs. Ok bottom end.
Inferior to 2 below.
luxman 509x: smooth, liquid, silky highs and awesome mids. Good bass. Never fatiguing regardless of volume level.
diablo: big bass, detailed, amazing speaker control. It can get a tad bright when cranked up. Source needs to be carefully selected with this piece.
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whitecamaross
talk about the sonic differences between the Mark Levinson No. 585 integrated, Luxman L509x integrated and Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated. Happy Listening! |
I can assure anyone that Luxman is not low end. That said, I can’t force anyone to believe me. Luxman has always been amazing and I have nothing bad to say about it. I am getting the Luxman 900u components next week for the 4th time... what’s that tell ya ? It’s still one of my favorites. Will gryphon separates best it ? Maybe it but it isn’t worth the massive amount of cash. As good as gryphon is, it isn’t leaps and bounds better than luxman. Hell, I own both of their integrateds right now and I can say whatever I wish. If we talk about construction and looks, the luxman kills the gryphon. In my opinion, Rowland, esoteric and luxman are the top in terms of looks. They all make amazing looking gear. Gryphon makes amazing components but they are ugly. When you see my Luxman 509x next to the gryphon diablo 300, the diablo looks like a thing from the movie predator. Not pretty at all. |
@mkwglyg Huh? I think you need to re-read it. |
Yr description of the luxman sounds like its lowfi against the gryphon |
Update: luxman L509x is incredible. Musicality is outstanding and smoothness is out of this planet. I actually can’t decide what’s better. The gryphon is awesome as well but they present things differently. The luxman has the edge in terms of musicality and spaciousness. The gryphon has the slam and dynamics and punch. The gryphon presentation is as if you were at the club with the music sounding huge, deep and clean regardless of the volume. The luxman presents it as if you were at a live event with great emotion and silkiness.
Bottom line, neither is better than the other. They both do things different and it’s really about what kind of music you listen to. If you listen to instrumental music then the luxman is the way to go. If you listen to pop, hip hop, electronic dance music, rock, then gryphon diablo 300.
If you have speakers that need more silkiness and less brightness along with great mids then go with luxman 509x. If they need a sledge hammer attack then go with gryphon 300. In my current situation and with Wilson speakers, I prefer the diablo but if I had sonus fabers, B&w, klipsch horns, etc then I’d with luxman.
That said, good luck trying to find a 509x Luxman integrated.... they can’t build them fast enough and they won’t have any until end of August. I had to pay top dollar to bring mine here. That’s how bad I wanted it and I am glad I did. I’d have zero issues paying the asking price of $9500 dollars. Oh and one last thing, it runs very cool so those of you with heat concerns should have zero worries. The diablo runs very hot though. |
Hi WC... My bad... You are correct. K1 appears to have slectable upsampling 2X, 4X, 8X, and DSD.... For filters there seems to be only an on/off toggle... No filters selection per se.
Worth testing various upsampling rates with filters turned on and off. For break-in purposes, I recommend to use the filter toggle to the on position, so to exercise the filter circuit.
G.
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Guido: the k1 does not have filters like previous esoteric dacs. They removed those filters this time around. |
I don't like the new B&W Diamond series. Again great technically but lack warmth of older designs. Your Sashas would kill it. Never demoed Magico! |
Whitecamaross I see your point it is hard to unload Devialet. From what I heard on several speakers. They have good resolution and lively but a bit sunny if u know what I mean! |
Hi WC, why would you ever want to sell K1... At least for the next 3 or 4 years? the K1 CD/SACD player is the best single box solution on the market today.... If you ever sell it, the only way to go up the ladder without sliding down or sideways is to opt for the Esoteric multibox Grandioso. The G1 clock has existed since the days of the X-01.... It applies to K1, as well as to the multi-box Grandioso.... And likely to generations of Esoteric offerings in the future.
And if you are interested in optimizing K1.... After breaking in every filter and selecting your preferred one, is to use the G1 clock or one of its brothers.
G.
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No. Devialet is Russian roulette. That stuff is hard to sell according to My connections. They have offered me insane deals because they can’t move it. Unless I get it for a steal I have no intentions of trying that brand. I don’t ever try brands that I can’t sell once I’m done with them. Same with Magico speakers. Unless I steal them, I can’t ever try them. One good acquaintance of mine spent more than a year to sell his magicos and had to take a nasty hit to sell them. I need to stay with mainstream stuff. Yes some say magicos are better than Wilsons and there fine but Wilson has a big following and for every magico sold, 10 Wilsons sell. My selection of components also come from the advice I get from my connections. I wanted to try rogue audio as well and i was told to stay away. Of course I was told to try a 800d3 B&w because that’s easy to sell.
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Whitecamaross will you try some Devialet monos? I heard 440 expert c with Wilson Sashas. |
Hey Greginh,
Sonically what areas of Gryphon are better than the Luxman 590? |
Riaa, I didn’t get the g1 clock. I did not want to spend that kind of money because honestly when I have to sell it, there’s no guarantee the buyer will want that clock and what am I going to do with it ? |
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Congrats Greg. Look forward to hearing what sonic improvements it makes in your system!! |
Strange you mention a clock. My G-02X arrives on Wednesday.
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I'm assuming that neither of you is running your Esoteric's with a clock?? The Used K1 had a G1 clock with it when it was traded in...hope you got the pair. Probably missing out on a lot going without it. |
Thanks! for sharing- greginnh Happy Listening! |
See if you can get your hands on an Audioquest Hurricane power to use with Esoteric. You will be even more amazed!
The breakin for the Esoteric is agonizingly long - as much as 500 per setting. It’s worth the wait!
I’m so looking forward to reading your review.
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Stay tuned next week... the Luxman 900u monos and preamp arrive next Thursday and I will use the esoteric k1.... I have a feeling I may be beyond shocked....
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denon - yes. I compared the L-509X with the L-590AX II and the 900 separates. Speakers were KEF Blade 2 with Luxman D-06U SACD.
Dont to get me wrong, the 509 is a great integrated and represents a long overdue upgrade on the previous integrated platforms (other than the 590). Major upgrades were made to the pre-amp section. The unit is selling very well world wide with a 1 to 2 month waiting list based on a conversation with the US Luxman rep (who coincidentally also prefers the 590 over the 509).
The 509 has slightly more bass and that’s it. The 590 is a bit warmer, has better sound stage and course has that Class A magic.
Hopefully you will have an opportunity to conduct a side by side comparison of your own.
The 900 combo is of course a step above these two.
YMMV.
Greg |
Greginns,
Did you actually compare side by side luxman 509x and 590axii? Instead of just staiting that 590 is better than 509x (and not only on this thread and forum) may be you care to share what exactly is better? What speakers you compared them on and other parts of your system?
thank you. |
apdoc2004 - I would say dead heat between these two. Of course the Luxman is half the price (once you add a phono card to the E-600). I see no justification in spending the extra money.
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Hi Greginnh,Any thoughts on how the Luxman L-590 AX Mk II compares to the Accuphase E-600 (both Class A with similar power rating)?
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Comparing the Luxman L-509X to the Diablo 300 is not a fair fight. It will not even come close. I've been a huge Luxman fan for almost 40 years and have been loyal to the brand through their good and "not so good" times. I wanted to like the L-509X but it actually does not sound as good as the L-590 AX MK II which is 30WPC of Class A with another 165 or so in A/B (not sure why Luxman never publishes that).
The Diablo 300 is simply better than the Luxman on all accounts. I continue to be amazed with its performance during the break-in period.
The Esoteric K1 is an amazing piece! I have owned the K-01X for more than a year now and it's really good. The K1 is another big step up the food chain!
Enjoy the continued journey!
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Yep this esoteric dac is my best component right now. No question. |
WC you saw the light! Welcome to the world of the best digital to analog conversion. Told you some posts ago that your Lumin and DS were not sota...
Your newly acquired K1 uses top AKM chips in parallel. Who perfected that design for Esoteric some years ago? Alex Paychev. The owner of APL hi fi , maker of the dac I own ...the DSD-S.
These dacs give, among some others, the most vinyl like analog sound on market today. They reproduce more sonic nuances and an overall more organic presentation. Enjoy!
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They are still the best amps I’ve owned. I won’t change my mind until I try something that is in the same league. I am now playing with gear that is less money and I am quite aware of the sound not being at the same level where it was before. As far as me hyping up, those amps were the best amps the day I cranked them
and was not thinking I’d sell them. Also, just because a certain amp doesn’t seem to work for me does not mean it won’t for you. Perfect example was my ref 10. It sounded amazing with revel salon 2s, Martin Logan but not so much with the Wilsons. I still believe that is the best preamp I have ever heard period and the best source I’ve owned is the esoteric k1. The gap between this dac and the rest I’ve owned is rather large. It’s not small by any means.
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"I was surprised you let the 925s go, as you indicated, they were the best you ever had. Enjoy ! MrD."
That is the standard "hyping up of the item " before he puts them up for sale . LOL . Joking in a kind way ! |
Hi WhiteCamaroSS, unlike other DACs, K1 is not a launch&forget device.... I believe that it has a variety of upsampling settings and filters..... And audible results will be quite different with various combinations.... It is worth you do some experiments.
Let us know your results.
G. |
