My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
When i answer someone post i dont like be ORDERED by someone who had NO RIGHT TO DO SO here ....
Especially when it is only 2 POSTS out of the thread matter...
IS IT CLEAR?
ask for a moderator job...
And learn to respect people here.... Some are musicians and some who like this thread like also CLASSICAL MUSIC....
There are lots of wonderful music threads on Audiogon. This is not one of them. Maybe it would be best if a few of us started PM’ing each other or contribute to one of the following threads. Just a thought.
The folks who think source direct with Mephisto or now Apex have never heard Gryphon gear. It doesn't and won't work. I don't care if its MSB,DCS, or EMM's DV2/DA2 (in which I have). You think if it sounded better without the (Pandora) I would have just purchased it because I wanted to spend my money? No!! Its far too edgy, and fatiguing without the pre. I'm considering the Commander with the Mephisto. We shall see?
Has it right; great suggestion and it will greatly help to keep this thread on track. Please take all extraneous talk (music, old gear, old past experience dealing with said gear that is no related to this thread) to one of the threads he suggested.
I agree with this. You can distill it down to two considerations, the weight of which varies from listener to listener: the measurements and the sound. It becomes a personal preference; no right or wrong. What we are hearing in our music reflects not only our hearing but the personal preferences of many other people including engineers, instrument manufacturers, musicians and dozens in between. I apologize for stating the obvious.
I partially agree with you, surprise! From an objective point of view, yes, omitting the preamp makes the sound relatively more edgy and fatiguing (I'll add only if the SPL is too loud). Here is where preferences and experiences with live unamplified music come in. Live unamped music heard at a close distance, near where the main microphones are, IS more edgy, bright and shows more details than the same music heard at a greater distance. If you like the former, you prefer omitting the preamp. If you like the latter, you prefer the added preamp. Also, if you listen to subtle music like delicate harpsichord, you prefer omitting the preamp, but if your main music is louder/dynamic, you prefer the added preamp. A possible conundrum comes for certain classical pieces which have both loud and soft parts. In the loud parts, you may prefer the added preamp. In the soft parts, you would prefer omitting the preamp. For example, in the Saint Saens Carnival of the Animals, there is a part where the high piano notes interweave with similar high notes from the glass harmonica. In order to appreciate the subtle tonal differences between the piano and glass harmonica, it is best to omit the preamp.
The foregoing applies to all levels of equipment. The principle is the same. My experience with modestly priced equipment reveals this. Jay's experience with different Gryphon amps and preamps confirms this.
Mahgister has so many insights about acoustics, room and power line treatments, as well as extensive breadth of knowledge about classical music which surpasses mine in many areas. My comments may not be of interest to some people here, which is OK because they can ignore me, but if I had kept my insights to only the few people I already know in private messages, I would not have met him. So if some people say to get this thread back on track, just realize that a diversity of opinions and subjects broadens general understanding. We are not discussing things like women's fashions and politics, which are totally off topic.
I tried to buy those 888 but they are 120k and unfortunately there has never been a single pair sold in the U.S. all of them are headed to Asia. Simaudio called them "888" not only because of the power but also because #8 is said to be a number in Asia that brings good luck. It is clear that simaudio didn’t make these for North American buyers. Boulder 3050 is also an amp that usually heads out to Asia. Not many 3050s in the U.S. (boulder said this to me)
I believe the simaudio 888 are probably awesome amps and who knows, maybe they best Mephisto monos or boulder 2150?
The issue is that the name makes it hard for big spenders to buy them. The name attached to those 888 doesn't make these buyers want to pull out their credit card.
You can't make a Range Rover autobiography owner sell his truck in order to buy a luxury Lexus even though the Lexus probably outlasts the range Rover. The name isn't Range Rover and yes, people pay more for the exclusivity of the name.
I have noticed that with this new speaker, the Mephisto Solos tend to sound more pure, more liquid in full class A, HIGH BIAS setting than in medium or low. This is so much different than with the XLF. With the XLF, the Solos got bright in HIGH BIAS and sounded better in medium bias. This is the kind of learning experience that can only be obtained by actually owning and trying things.
I was getting ready to say that the Mephisto Solos are bright in High Bias until this new speaker arrived. Now i have realized that it goes back to the same thing we have been talking about: SYNERGY.
Interesting to hear how the Bias settings effect the sound. Will be interested to hear how it all shakes out and if different components, besides the speakers/amps, change, what bias setting is best or does it remain the same.
I tried to buy those 888 but they are 120k and unfortunately there has never been a single pair sold in the U.S. all of them are headed to Asia.
Interesting. Where did you obtain those "facts"? They are completely wrong. I am happy to say that we have sold many pairs in North America and Europe, though the vast majority have indeed gone to Asia.
The issue is that the name makes it hard for big spenders to buy them. The name attached to those 888 doesn't make these buyers want to pull out their credit card.
I cannot agree with that but you are entitled to your opinion. In addition, the majority of so-called luxury brands out there do not have the history and customer care that we are known for. That is always factored in when evaluating any true expensive, high performance luxury product. It is part of what high-end is all about (at least to us) and it is so sad how this industry is laced with high-end brand names that simply do not offer that level of service over a long term.
Back to the 888, they are given that name because their rated maximum power output is 888Wrms each into 8 ohms. Yes, 8 is a number that brings good fortune in Asia, and that was factored in when we selected the name for this model, but to say it is a product destined only for the Asian market is incorrect, especially considering the fact we are a Canadian company and build everything ourselves right here in Montreal, and have been doing so for over 40 years.
Oh wow. Who would have known Simaudio reads my thread?
Thank you for following me.
Maybe one day Simaudio can put a pair of these big boys so they can be evaluated by me? I own the 860v2 right now and it is quite good. Great bass control and very smooth.
It’s sounding awesome with my VAC Master preamp by the way.
I definitely would love to try those 888 monos in order to see how they go against amplifiers of the same price point (Gryphon and vac) which are in my room now. It would be great for the whole world to see and actually hear on my channel.
Maybe we should start a petition here on this thread? Hey, stranger things have happened... including the potential of me bringing a stereo Gryphon Apex which seems to be what is trending right now.
Jay - Do you fact check information before you post something authoritatively?
"I tried to buy those 888 but they are 120k and unfortunately there has never been a single pair sold in the U.S. all of them are headed to Asia. Simaudio called them "888" not only because of the power but also because #8 is said to be a number in Asia that brings good luck. It is clear that simaudio didn’t make these for North American buyers. Boulder 3050 is also an amp that usually heads out to Asia. Not many 3050s in the U.S. (boulder said this to me)
I believe the simaudio 888 are probably awesome amps and who knows, maybe they best Mephisto monos or boulder 2150?
The issue is that the name makes it hard for big spenders to buy them. The name attached to those 888 doesn't make these buyers want to pull out their credit card.
You can't make a Range Rover autobiography owner sell his truck in order to buy a luxury Lexus even though the Lexus probably outlasts the range Rover. The name isn't Range Rover and yes, people pay more for the exclusivity of the name.
Yep. That fact came from an actual dealer which will go nameless.
Of course, the manufacturer can’t come in here and say " oh yeah we have not sold a single pair in the United States".
Do you actually expect to hear such thing from them? Let’s be honest here. No manufacturer will accept (not just simaudio) where their product isn't selling. That is meant to be kept private or else the perception isn't great.
Regarding the DAC Direct vs DAC->Preamp approach - I'm thinking that the DAC Direct must incorporate some form of a preamp, in order to allow for volume changes, etc. I'm sure it's very simplistic, which can be good, but is it really better than an outboard preamp?
Following that logic, I guess you could also claim that an integrated is better than a preamp/amp?
I also seem to understand, from the comments, that the "hard to listen to and/or bright" sound of the DAC Direct equates to better clarity?
Am I understanding this point of view correctly? Because it seems to oppose what I've experienced.
Dacs are often times 9/10 more highly resolving resulting in ear fatigue unless you listen at the same volume levels found in elevators. Impossible to get ear fatigue this way.
Also, most dacs don’t have balls to drive the hell out of a serious amp. DAC direct is awesome if your amps aren’t exactly resolution kings.
That said, good results can be had with a DAC especially when one is on a budget but let’s not get it twisted.
Lastly, keep in mind that most people who are saying DAC direct is better than a great preamp are those who are using mid and low tier preamps. They aren’t playing with the ultra high end preamps.
I agree with what you said to a certain extent. Can’t argue your point but I will say that the control that a well designed preamp has is something that no DAC has. It’s like hearing the exhaust system from a Corvette and then hear a Honda civic with a muffler...
For what i's worth, I voted for Focal. It's been almost two years but it would be nice to hear the Focal Stella Utopia Evo again but with the equipment you have now, especially the VAC gear. The Mephisto monos also could be nice with all the adjustments the Stella's have.
Obviously, I am not on WC's audio level but I would consider my system to be the second tier to his. After the urging of many people, I tried running my Lampi Pacific DAC directly to my Canary Grand Reference 300B Mono amps. BTW there are 16 Western Electric 300B tubes in it. I was surprised and shocked at how good the system sounded after removing the Pre-amp. It was quieter, cleaner and the music just sounded a little better. I am now going to sell my Pre-amp.
And now I hear a slight faint hissing sound through the tweeters when nothing is playing. Seems to be coming from both preamps which are connected into these outlets..
I vote for one of the Rockports. They never fail to impress and would restore some price reality to the equation. — thereby pleasing most of your viewership. Given the size of your room the Avior IIs would likely suffice though the Cygnuses might work, too.
To further clarify, the dac with its volume control has an active electronic stage. That is in effect, a preamp, although Jay says that this is not as good as the added preamp. When people add their preamp, they are in effect using TWO preamps in tandem. As mrdecibel, willgolf, mikem and I find from listening, 2 preamps create loss of clarity but with added dynamics and smoothness, compared to the single preamp stage in the dac. This is true at all price levels. The laws of physics don’t change with money spent.
There might be a few dacs available without volume controls or that added electronic stage. The actual dac chip would be used with an external dedicated preamp. That would be the purest method of going "dac direct" since there would be only one electronic gain stage in that chain, rather than the two stages used in Jay’s discussions of his systems.
Takes 1 and 2 of the new speaker are pleasant. But it would be most helpful if someone can link videos of the XLF playing the same songs so we can better understand the differences between the XLF and the new speaker. Even if the electronics are different in the XLF videos, speaker differences are much greater than electronics differences, so this would be most informative.
Jay can say all he wants, but hearing by us is more informative. We can accept what he says about his own findings in his room, but these links would be more helpful. We will find out shortly what the new speaker is, but unless someone hears the differences himself in a readily available way, he won't know for himself what the differences are.
"But it would be most helpful if someone can link videos of the XLF playing the same songs so we can better understand the differences between the XLF and the new speaker"
How come you dont do the leg work for this particular need? i already do the legwork here man... shooting, lifting crates, unloading, editing, etc, etc.
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