People have personal and subjective opinions about the sonic effects of different kinds of AC power products on their audio systems. I think the only intellectually honest thing that can be said is that there is no way to tell in advance what will be the sonic effects of power regeneration versus isolation transformer versus balanced power versus passive noise suppression versus battery power on a particular audio system as perceived by a particular audiophile's ears. No rule of general applicability can be formulated. Which power device, if any, is "best" will be very idiosyncratic and will depend on each audiophile's particular mains power voltage stability and variance situation, ambient EMI environment, audio system components and personal sonic preferences. In setting up a new audio system I assumed that I wanted either a PS Audio regenerator or an isolation transformer/balanced power device for my turntable power supply, phono stage and line stage preamplifier. I compared a PS Audio regenerator to an Equi-Tech device on a friend's familiar system. See https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/equi-tech-2rq-versus-ps-audio-p10.30215/The sonic effects of each of these devices on my friend's system were very audibly different. Which sonic effects were "correct"? That comparison experience left me so perplexed that I have decided to put together my new system, at least initially, with no AC power devices at all. |
In case some of you haven't noticed, Nordost hasn't come out with a power conditioner for a reason. They have identified changes to the sonic qualities of their cables when using these devices.
What did the p20 do to my system?.
It killed the wow effect and murdered the excitement. It homogenized things and if j recall correctly, it killed the bass too. I thought the Shunyata Denali V2 was superior. |
Dear Jay,
Thank you very much for your very kind words on October 2, 2021.
They are much appreciated!
Best wishes,
Ron |
I just realized that I failed to identify that the model Power Plant I had was at the time the largest in the series, P10; good for 1200 VA continuous and 1500 VA intermittent so this unit in no way should have been underpowered for my system, especially with amplifiers plugged into wall, not P10. |
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stay tuned - i will be releasing the final video of my bottom tier amplifiers today. |
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PS Audio Power Regenerator works if you have a bad powerline like I do. I live in a condo in downtown Boston. If I don't use a power regenerator the amplifier doesn't even turned on due to unstable voltage and current. Infrastructure was like almost 200 years old here... The power regenerator, at least, generates a perfect sine wave and output stable voltage so I can enjoy music.
However, if I have a dedicated powerline, I will never plug my amp to any power regenerator/conditioner, only straight to the wall. I don't hear any big difference plugging in my dCS/turntable/phonostage/CD player to either the wall or power conditioner though. Prob they don't consume that much power an amp would need. |
Great video again Jay. It's a shame that companies like Levinson and Mcintosh don't invest in true hifi anymore. It is better for their business and keep them alive though.
I feel that the trend of ultra hifi is to bring out tremendous resolution, but at the same time, preventing from sounding bright. Most of them would sound a little bit sweet but you don't feel any coloration. I haven't heard swiss brands like CH Precision, Soulution and Dartzeel. But from what I heard Dan Dagostino, Gryphon and Boulder can do this. |
WC,
You had mentioned that you will have an interview with someone from Krell. Will you be trying their XD amp in your system? I don't think you've tried that one, and it might be good for another of the lower price point amp vs higher price point amp videos.
Dave
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I don't know if I'll ever try it |
Given Krell’s recent reviews and it’s upcoming Reference amplifiers, that is disappointing news. |
ricevs,
What is the problem with an all-in-one unit like the Goal Zero Yeti? The current Yeti 1500X has plenty of power and is reasonably priced still. Why would a separate 3000 watt inverter and battery be better? Sorry, I remember you posted links to such products many months ago, but maybe you can mention some again. Most important, have you personally tried them vs Yeti at home? Jay's negative experience with the PSA P20 shows that you must listen rather than fall in love with promises based solely on theory. |
All in one units have fans inside that come on most of the time......you do not want a noisy fan in your room. I modded my Yeti 400 so the fan does not come on. The guy that reviewed the Yeti 400 now has a second Yeti 1200 for his Pass 250.8 amp.....however, he put it in the closet so he does not have to hear the fan. My friend with the modded Apogee speakers uses the Yeti 3000 watter.....but in another room and runs a cable through the wall to his Puritan Audio filter. The only reason he bought the Yeti is that he wants to use it as back up power for the house when the power company shuts off the power when the winds get high. All inverters will sound slightly different. I have not sonically compared inverters.....but everyone I know who uses one (whether an all in one or separates) is thrilled with the sonic and visual (video) improvements.
Separates are also more flexible (you can keep adding batteries) and way, way cheaper than all in ones. A good 3000 watt low distortion sine wave inverter is not more than $500.....add two 100 amp batteries for $300 and another hundred or so for a big charger and you have less than $1K and you have 2000 watts of storage. You can listen with the charger connected so you can leave your system all the time.....however, it sounds slightly better to disconnect the charger when listening......a simple switch is all you need......but if you forget to turn the charger back on then your batteries will drain to zero.....you don't want that......if you were a tweaker you could make or buy a voltage sensing switch so when the voltage dropped below say 11 volts the charger would automatically reconnect.
You are completely off the grid with an inverter.....same great sound day and night. All inverters put out some noise. This is why a great filter like the Puritan helps more.....and then the grounding filter and grounding rod take it over the top. The Puritan will isolate each component from each other so any noise in one component won't affect the other. |
Hi WC,
Almost caught up on the videos. Your commentary is most informative and what I look fwd to.
Quick aside, one of my test tracks for resolution is below. Curious if you are interested, how many times can you hear the guitarists fingers glide back to the next chord between seconds 12 and 33 on your exceptional system? Ideally stream through qobuz or tidal at 24/96.
I find this track so revealing as I listen to new components or swap cables etc.
I think it speaks to one’s system and also perhaps one’s hearing as the details are really subtle.
song: Honey Sun
artist: Elbow
album: The Take Off and Landing of Everything
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ricevs,
Thanks. Can you link or mention the separates--3000 watt sine wave inverter, the batteries and charger?
I would think the larger Yeti can handle low power which is the case in classical music most of the time without having the fan come on. For loud transients, of course the fan would come on and then shut off quickly. In loud sustained musical passages, if the fan is on, you don’t hear it. But for soft passages, the fan obliterates low level detail, of course.
A more important factor is that when I talked to Goal Zero, they weren’t familiar with audio uses, since they market these products to campers and kitchen appliance users. They claimed that for audio uses, problems with grounding occur. They didn’t know how this could be prevented. Have your friends had problems with hum? |
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i regret having posted in between what seems like an ad or at best a private conversation. |
Well since this thread has now gone into power source. The inverter and the ac receptacle on power supply both effect sound quality, suspect some variability here. I prefer sound quality of my modded BPT Signature 3.5 to lithium ion power pack. With last dac I owned, sound with power pack took on darkish tinge, back to 3.5, more excitement, involvement. I've opened up my power pack in order to determine how things could be improved, really cheap, cheap, cheap parts and metallurgy. I may try diy mods some day. And I can't imagine using any PP with my amps, no way they going to deliver current I need, my amps go straight into wall, dedicated 10awg for amps only.
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Right now, i prefer ZERO power conditioner. I'm actually connecting my preamp on a Nordost qb8 power strip because i want to get a baseline of the presentation without adding any "seasoning" in the form of power conditioners. |
@zprr
Thank you for the recommendation of Elbow's 'Honey Sun'. I liked it. Reminded me of Fink. It's so nice to have good, well recorded music that is not your standard overplayed audiophile test tracks.
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Jay,
Didn't you prefer the source and preamp components on the Shunyata Denali, rather than into the wall or power strip? The Nordost qb8 is a special case with some quantum technology I don't understand. How does this Nordost compare with the Denali or a plain power strip? |
Nordost has great detail but if you use a nordost odin 1 PC to power the power strip then you’ll get tons of detail and the bass leans out. I just detected this today. You gain massive detail but the bass leans out. The Denali gives you great bass but the resolution doesn’t quite catch the nordost qb8 with Odin powercord.
It’s all about trade offs.
The Everest has tremendous bass. This undisclosed preamp and amp tell the whole truth quite EASILY.
I keep going back to no power conditioner. I'm literally using an Amazon 40 dollar power strip and connecting the preamp in there, the DAC into the wall with shunyata omega QR-s powercords and the amps into the wall with transparent Opus powercords. I will say i lose some of the extra resolution by doing this but my midrange and bass get FAR better. The musicality returns too. CRAZY HOBBY! |
Very interesting WC. I switched from a 20amp O1 to a 20amp O2 pc between the wall and qbase and have not looked back on bass - articulation, layering, punch, pace. But maybe I am still missing some musicality and engagement in the mids and highs? not sure. Maybe related, an area where I do not question are vocals, wonderful to my ears in my system w current system/power cord arrangement. Did your test recommended from your recent live chat re: memories. worked. so that’s good |
The Nordost system brings clarity to the entire freq range. As with more accurate electronics, increased clarity is associated with leaner bass, but the bass is tighter with greater clarity. More musical details are revealed without distortion because Nordost is carefully designed. It takes some time to get used to, and ultimately when more of the music is understood, you realize this is most natural and lifelike.
I like the simplicity of the Nordost qb8, but can we get the benefits without having the entire system (power cords, interconnects) of Nordost? Since Jay is using other brands with the qb8, maybe the answer is yes. Perhaps a Nordost power cord is top priority with the qb8 and the most important add-on. |
I think the powercord used on the qb8 is the most important thing.
I have just ordered the Nordost grounding system to see what happens. |
Like I mentioned before. Try a Dragon PC to power the Qbase 8. That PC is bottom heavy with wonderful mids and highs. I believe that will give you the tone you are looking for. |
If you try Moneoone (M101) Supernova you will find clarity and detail while the bass is also tighter and more detailed but in no way lean. You get it all, and there is no "takes time to get used to" since it sounds quite good right out of the box, although it does of course improve a lot over the first hundred hours or so. Then you have forever to get used to how good it sounds.
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IME, you have to be very careful with power conditioners and power strips. Power conditioners in particular. If you have a decent dedicated 20 or 30 amp line, many times ( most) a strip or conditioner is going to limit the ability of the amp. I have tried numerous power conditioners, many with supposedly the ability to support large amps...well IME that just is not so!
My amp manufacturer ( Jeff Rowland) says no power conditioners, and with his amps, he is spot on.
IMO, dedicated lines are the way to go, BUT you need to not only upgrade the line, but also the panel and the wiring to the street transformer, along with getting the transformer checked for connections. This is what i did and the results were pretty startling. The cost is going to be higher than any power conditioner, but I think the results speak for themselves. |
if people have followed me closely, they would know that i dont use power conditioners for amplifiers. That is a big NO NO. |
Which QKore did you order? The 1, 3 or dual 3 (6) version? I’m really curious to see how incremental the improvements are with it after QBase, Pre/amp, DAC, then amp(s). Hope you can take us on that journey! |
Also, participated in a really interesting test last evening: A server was placed on a Critical Mass Base with their Center stage footers. System was sounding very good and detailed but all sound was emanating from between speakers. Soundstage was deep and sounded detailed.
Removed all Critical Mass and replaced with just SortKones (TC). Mind you this was only under the server…. The speakers just disappeared, the sound became both warmer, more lifelike and detailed. After 30 minutes of listening we both determined that the Critical Mass has somehow sucking some of the life out of the sound.
I have been a fan of critical mass though I don’t personally own it. I know you have written of similar experiences with it in “The Lab”. But it was just stunning to hear the difference. Clearly, it has capability of doing some good things, but equally clearly… it is important to be really careful with it.
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Important detail: The Critical Mass was fully broken in and had been installed over a week earlier so it was already settled before the test.
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Hey Paul
I've been saying it for some time now that i don't feel footers add music to the music. They inject this extra information that makes the presentation almost synthetic.
People are finally starting to see and hear for themselves. This is great because it solidifies what i have already stated in the past.
I ordered the Qkore 6. I was told by nordost that you must ground components by utilizing an input on the component and to not use the typical grounding point that some electronics have. This is why they sell you grounding cables terminated in whatever you need (XLR, USB, RCA, etc).
Today, i inserted yet another transparent opus powercord but i am using it on the preamp now and once again transparent adds more musicality and far more bass.
Damn it, i wish I would have used transparent cables with the mágico M6 now.
I think i might be done with silver cables of any brand |
You cannot expect to know anything about a subject by trying one product or whatever. Because you do not like the ones you tried does not mean they all sound the same. If you only try one thing.....you are ignorant of the possibilities.....he just said that the Sortkones were way better than the ones you tried. You need to try at least a dozen different ones......just like cables....just like preamps.....they all sound different. Did you try one amp and think you know what all amps sound like? If you really had a goal of the best sound then you would experiment with whatever things can give it to you. Better feet = better sound. If you do not want the best sound possible then you will just skip this process. No problem.....we all do what we want......but again, if you want the best sound possible, then you need the best footers for each component. This is not being some kind of tweaker (you have said again and again that you are not a tweaker). This is being a music lover who knows that everything makes a difference. You can afford to do these kind of experiments......with footers, with various line conditioning, fuses, etc. This is why some cheaper systems can sound way better than more expensive systems....because someone took the time to fine tune his rig. Do you want the best sound possible or do you just want to swap gear? You are beautiful no matter what you do. Have fun. |
@ricevs
+1 on your last comments
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+2 on ricevs comments,
Footers of various types are isolation tools just like the Artesania amp stands you seem to like and find very effective.
"I've been saying it for some time now that i don't feel footers add music to the music. They inject this extra information that makes the presentation almost synthetic."
Saying that sounds like some of the posters on this thread talking about products they have never heard in person are inferior to other products they haven't heard either. I don't think a blanket statement like that is fair after only trying a couple different isolation products.
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My take on power conditioners will go live today at 130pm ET. |
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Well…. No one notice ? It’s been 5 years, happy anniversary Jay. I think you should give michaela some kind of award or something, without him/her this would have never got started! |
WHOAAAAA 😲
You're right... 5 years doing this here day in day out. I can't believe it... |
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I added my 4th Transparent Opus powercord today: 2 are on the amps, two on the preamp and i have been sitting on my chair for the last 4 hours. I have officially removed all my Audioquest Dragon powercords from my system. Why? the mix and matching of Dragon High Current and Transparent XLR & Opus speaker cables simply dont work well together.
Things can get edgy and a little fatiguing.
I really like these Transparent opus PCs, but i think that it is also the synergy that is taking over. It does not matter what song is playing; oldies, 90s, 80s, etc - the system is quite impressive and clear like water. I even found myself listening to some JAZZ! (WDF!!).
I am completely impressed with the dynamics in some of the JAZZ songs i was listening to. I think it will be HARD for me get rid of the full loom of Transparent Opus because i have heard many different brands and although they were amazing in their own right, this transparent system keeps me glued. The only thing that sucks is that MSRP...ugh..
Oh and before i forget, i am STILL STREAMING FROM MY OLD LAPTOP LOL!! (hopefully i will have the music server soon).
I feel as if i am reaching new heights sonically speaking. Undoing what i have built over the last few months WILL BE HARD to beat even for me.
Of course, nothing is perfect, but when i listen at the entire presentation, i hear something quite special. NO NEED to blast the system either in order to get full satisfaction here folks. All the musicality, resolution, clarity, imaging, detail and vocals that hang in the air dead center between the speakers. This has all been accomplished by a 100% solid state preamp/amp combination. I don’t know how much more i can elevate this system once i get the music server and the opus powercord for the server plus the grounding system from Nordost, but you all know i will keep pushing forward even though I DO NOT KNOW what would push ahead of what have i created around the Wilson XLF. |
Jay, glad to hear about where you are at right now. You wrote "NO NEED to blast the system either in order to get full satisfaction here folks. All the musicality, resolution, clarity, imaging, detail and vocals that hang in the air dead center between the speakers". I'm really glad you have made it to this place. I'm not saying my system is on your level, but that's what I hear. When I first got my system, I played it at around 50 to maybe 60 on the preamp display. Now I play it at 35 and the sound is just like you say, I don't need all that volume to get the system singing.
Really enjoying the journey. Keep up the trial and error and all the fun, you've worked hard to get where you are. And thanks for continuing to take us along. |
Congrats on 5 years!
re footers. I can only say I have experimented with a variety of points/spikes and absorption systems over many years. I have found the Nordost SortKones to be particularly effective. I have around 15 of them; AS, BC and 1 set of TC. I would recommend skipping AS (I think they are now upgraded to AC-ceramic bearings) and I wish I could afford more TC. I use them under every component of my system, including power supplies and even the QBase. I have found that they contribute to varying degrees. They do not add anything, they just seem to focus and give more clarity and allow more detail through. My only analogy is cleaning a dusty window. Of course, if the view is crappy… well they don’t help! I have also heard stillpoints and they have been great, but way out of my price point. Just a slight encouragement from me. |
WC,
Regarding the Transparent cables, I'm curious if there's any trickle down into the lower priced lines and I'm curious how well those perform? Probably not something you will be doing :-)
Dave
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Unfortunately i dont see myself trying them because Transparent cable dealers are not many and they are closely monitored too. I had to buy the now discontinued Opus Gen5 speaker cables because the new Gen6 is crazy money. The margins on Transparent cables are not the same as many other cable brands.
I don’t see myself selling them unless somehow the stars align for me to move up to the Gen6 Opus speaker cables.
The used market is not a good option for the top end transparent cables either because they will only calibrate cables for the original owner. This is why i had to buy all my cables from a dealer since i change equipment so often. If i had bought these Opus speaker cables from the second hand market, i would have had to pay transparent like $5,000 dollars to "recertify" them so i can get all the calibrations i need. I do not regret my purchase one bit. |
psnyder149,
You said about the Nordost SortKones, "They do not add anything, they just seem to focus and give more clarity and allow more detail through. My only analogy is cleaning a dusty window."
Thanks to you, so I will try them. Whether footers, electronics or cables, your statement communicates the ideal. Avoid warm things that add richness, bass, etc. The dusty window is like these things falsely added. The clarity and detail reveals more of the music. That's the Nordost philosophy. Even my cheap Nordost Vishnu power cord shows these traits.
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Jay
The used market is not a good option for the top end transparent cables either because they will only calibrate cables for the original owner. This is why i had to buy all my cables from a dealer since i change equipment so often
Do you have any idea what is involved in Calibrating "Transparent Audio " Speaker Cables ? Unless they have variable resistors , capacitors or the ability to adjust in some way an RC Circuit, I cannot believe they can "Calibrate"??? cables.. ???. Now you can't really calibrate an amp , but you can certainly match it to the speaker , when i say match, I mean use an amp that can output the Current needed for low Impedance swings . For example a speaker that dips to 2 or 3 ohms of impedance at a certain Frequency will require an amp that can output or handle the current that that is required to drive them (usually the lower Bass Region, but not always ) when a constant voltage is supplied by the amp. So amp matching is critical, but what can be calibrated in a a cable ???. I am curious to know . |
