As longtime electrostat owner my experience is the 100 watt exogal ion digital amplifier drives my King Sound speakers to 90 db without distortion . Room is 20x17 vaulted ceiling to 10' I have tried Krell cx series amps and much preffered the 100 watt Ion . No desire hear to chase large watt amplifiers any longer .
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
I feel that I will no longer post on WC's thread, because I do not want to add anything that appears " negative ". I have followed this thread from day 1, but started to participate relatively recently. As an experienced audio professional who spent many years putting together systems for many wealthy people ( some just for the prestige, admittedly ), I do believe I know what WC wants. It is not the Neos, but, this journey needs to be lived and experienced by him. I stated it in my last post. So, unless I am asked to join in, I'm out. I will, however, continue reading. I will allow anyone to private message me through A;gon email. Many thanks, Enjoy ! MrD. |
No doubt the DAG integrated is getting very close to the top but coming straight off ML website....Neolith can dip to .43 ohms so I think it is valid that they could need more power. Boulder immediately comes to mind but I think that has already passed through the stable. Another would be Krell 600e monoblocks, or perhaps Rowland Daemon integrated at 1500 WPC. Another speaker mentioned above that would be worth looking into is the JBL Everest 6700. They are sensational and can be had new or used at a huge discount. |
@WCSS No not with the YG’s but I used it with the Proac’s I had. With the Proac’s I attenuated by 8db @ 36 & 42hz which gave me a flatter response in the bottom end. In my experience I have found it’s best to use EQ as a last resort and sparingly. Set-up the speakers to get the best overall frequency response, soundstage, imaging etc... then use EQ as little as possible. Using the EQ in Roon requires you to measure your room first to see where the peaks are so you know where to set the filters, how much to attenuate and how wide to set the Q. I’m still getting use to the YG’s and might use Roon’s EQ with them in the future but I won’t have to use as much as I did with my Proac’s. |
WC, Congrats to you for discovering the absolute necessity of tone controls. Any reservations you had about the Neo are now a thing of the past. RIGHT ON!!!!!!! A fully flexible strategy is to expand on this by getting the Rane ME60 equalizer. I see them available for $200 used, and I am awaiting mrdecibel's offer to sell his. Sorry, bigddesign3, ordinary tone controls are a good step, but won't achieve the flexibility of a good EQ like the Rane. The deprecating attitude of the sanctimonious audiophile towards EQ is unfortunate. This viewpoint is fallacious because every component, from speakers to any amp at any price has colorations and tonal balance aberrations, because of the designer's different tastes. They attempt to produce flat measurements, but there are still colorations as we all know. So you have to use EQ to account for variabilities in the room, recordings, and ultimately your taste preference. In order of importance, first is the speaker, then the recording and the means to play it like the turntable/arm/cartridge, etc. Next is the EQ. Far beneath is the preamp, amp. On the bottom, the least important are the tweeks like cables, although we all get excited about even that. Recently I was trying to decide whether to keep the Mytek Brooklyn Amp. The highs weren't as extended as my Bryston 2.5B SST2, but the other aspects were better. But a tweek of my EQ let me get the great highs of the Bryston while preserving the Mytek's other great qualities. So I am very happy now with the Mytek, rescued by the EQ. I can sit patiently while awaiting the availability of the Merrill Elements. For the real purist audiophile who believes that any electronics in the chain creates veiling and other distortions, this is an opportunity to eliminate the preamp by using the Rane instead. As mrdecibel notes, as a line stage with the EQ set to flat, it beats most preamps. Then use the EQ for an unbeatable result (although he likes his Luminous passive preamp best and doesn't need his EQ). His horns are so efficient that he doesn't need the gain of a preamp. At the opposite end of the efficiency spectrum, with my 75 dB stats, I can still get enough gain from my DAC so I don't need any more from a preamp, which will only introduce veiling. I am now just using my CD with the DAC and don't worry about pulling cables if I want to use another source. WC, I am thrilled you are now in heaven. |
The tone controls allow you to dial them how you want them to be. Granted, I’m sure I can get them to sound better by switching a few things out but that is one expensive exercise and using tone controls is not. These same controls would have been awesome on the magico as well because I could have turned the treble slightly down and on the Sasha 2s I would have added a little more treble. I actually had someone come over when I had the Sasha 2s who asked me if I can turn the treble up a little. I agree with that. They could have used more treble. This is another reason WHY I’ve been telling everyone who owns tbe Luxman 900u to use the matching preamp. It has tone controls as well. The more I play with the momentum, the more I find it appealing and versatile in so many ways. |
WCSS, You are now diving into the real Neolith. You now have the experience, with using the tone controls of a speaker that kicks royal ass. So now you know that something is there to be had. And that the Neolith can sound just as you had hoped. This is an exciting thing that you have brought to the table. You have now established that the Neolith can bring forth the "bacon" with proper parts to back it up. Now of course, the use of a tone control is blasphemy to most all audiophiles. But this does let you know that the Neolith has great possibilities as a SOTA speaker. So how do you get this magic sound without tone controls? Well, you have a baseline as to where things are missing in the "parts" chain now. Thru preamp, amp, speaker cables, and XLRs..... there will be some progress that can be achieved. But let's say that you can't get exactly the same result. I would say that the D'ag separate Momentum Preamp would be a choice then. That would give you the tone controls, and you could use any amplifier setup you choose. If that is what it takes to get the Neolith sounding it's best, who on God's Green Earth can tell you that the Momentum Preamp is not "winning". Once you can get some serious current to the Neoliths...... all will be well. They would like more, and in a big way. Amps that double in power all the way down would be the best choice. It's unfortunate that the D'ag Integrated doesn't have XLR out, and could be used as a preamp. But the D'ag Integrated is letting you know now, that the Neolith is one hell of a speaker. If we always have to be chained down with certain audiophile ideas (no tone or eq), there will never be an open ocean of sound to be had. This is a really good reveal WCSS. Keep on keepin' on. |
Or I could just use the tone controls on the Dag and fix the issue instantly lol. I actually just did that and it sounds more like what I want out of the Neolith. No need to mess around with cables or powercords or nothing. its so shocking to hear the change in sound to be honest. It’s mind boggling how muffled they sound when using no tone controls but as soon as I push a button on the remote to engage them, BOOM. It’s like a whole new speaker. Sounds spectacular when boosting the treble to about +4 and the bass to 2+. It’s crazy intoxicating to use it. You don’t want to play it flat anymore. Tone controls make the highs sound almost very “beryllium” like but actually even better without any fatigue. |
Another comment or two from a guy that has done some of what wc is doing. switching out gear without establishing constants. The correct way in my humble opinion is to find a base point. In this case I would suggest to only use the Agostino integrated with the speakers and NO other change for at least a month. Any system sounds best untouched after it’s set up and cooking. Just leave it alone. Get a true handle on the sound as set up then ONLY work on speaker placement. Once you’re in rarified air as wc is the adjustment of the speaker will have the greatest impact. many in this thread have said so. Changing an amp like the DAG just isn’t going to fundamentally change things. If the DAG has 200w into 8ohms I expect that into 2ohms it has a ton of mojo. Never forget that you must double the amp’s output for an additional 3db of perceived volume increase. Repeating myself I would just leave everything alone and enjoy the music the system is making for no less than a month. wc has great gear in hand and should be in no rush to add another variable into his system. Constantly changing components is frustrating and confusing. finally(too long winded) forget the concept that bc it’s an integrated amp its 200w is somehow different than a free standing 200w amp. Totally wrong and illogical. It just ain’t so. If in a month the sound is unsatisfactory it’s the speakers or room interaction but it’s not the DAG amp. I believe this 100%. As always FWIW. |
WC, Your early impressions of the Neo are correct. You have accurately described the character of the Neo in comparison to the Magico. All the Wilsons I have heard over many years have been mediocre at best. Don’t waste your money on them. Just go to a dealer and listen for 5 min to satisfy your curiosity. At least I liked the one Magico I heard, and respect their R&D. I heard a medium sized YG and can say it kills any Wilson for purity. Mrdecibel is correct in saying that you stlll don’t know what you really value. He confirms my statement that stats are far inferior for large dynamics. He and I are very sincere in our desires to help you find your way. You could settle with the Neo and have a good amount of everything. Or you could decide your first priority is dynamics and go with the best horns with the least coloration, like Avantgarde. Or you could be like me and decide that purity and information retrieval is all important and settle for the CLX plus REL. Amps or tweaks like cables won’t change your mind about which camp you fall in. The amp you prefer will make all these types of speakers sound better. But if you go for horns, a really pure 10 watt amp will beat the powerhouse for purity, and will give you better dynamics than beating the heck out of the Neo with the monster amp. Remember mrdecibel said his Klipsch La Scala will fill an auditorium. |
Thanks @pokey77 i want to keep going with it. Right now I’m playing with the Neoliths as I Type this. I want to keep pushing through and to keep things simple, I’m going to just play with different xlr cables that I have here just to see what happens. The Neolith, once again, has shown Me today that it won’t forgive crappy recordings. It won’t forgive anyone with such songs. What I’m trying to do is to dial them in better and just play with cables that I have here while I wait for more horsepower in the next few weeks. |
It kind of blows my mind that folks will come in here and tell WC all "he is doing wrong" but from what can be ascertained of these comments/posters, they've not heard either the speaker or the combo of gear WC is using. On the other hand, I find it refreshing that @dep14 has provided some useful data obtained from his own listening sessions. This will always be the most useful. It's called system synergy and it is about having equipment that works well together. Though I'd assume that most of us do not have the working capital to support the efforts that WC is making, I applaud him for his passion in searching for that literal match made in heaven. Hope you find it when you are ready WC. |
I’ve had the chance to demo the Neoliths a couple of times. 1. Axpona in Chicago 2015, demo’d with the 1.2kw mcintosh amps. Comfortably Numb - it was like being at a Floyd Show. Dynamics, seamless, just oustanding. The room wasn’t perfect, and while I like Electrostats, with rock at times I feel the smaller panels compress. It was one of the best speakers I’ve heard. Just outstanding. 2. PAV in Chicago, used the BelCanto Black system to drive them. Room not perfect, but they were further into the room. Rush, Tom Saywer among others. Again just outstanding. Not quite the oomph that the Big Mc Amps had. But was floored. My neighbor run’s the 11’s. I like them, but I would want a slightly bigger panel. But of the high end speakers I’ve had a chance to really listen to, it’s one of the few that I said, yeah, in the right room with the right power... I can see why someone would spend that much. The DynAudio Consequence was another. The big wilsons with the focal tweeters were too bright, I’d like to hear them with the soft domes. The JBL 67000’s... in the right room, pretty awesome. Not quite the punch of the big Dyn’s and Neo’s on the bottom end. But I’ve heard many other brands, frankly including Magico and YG that I went... nice, but even if I had the money, no thanks. I think the only possible concern I would have for WC is the size of his room, but man even in a hotel room (granted it was a suite, but not huge), Comfortably Numb will stick in my head from that demo. It floored me. I've had some solid speakers since that time, but I've not gotten close to how that sounded. It was awesome. |
The Neoliths have been played for May be 10 -12 hours since they arrived. I’ve been busy and just came back from vacation 30 min ago. I was updating this while I was gone for a full week so tonight I get to play again. Neoliths will now be played more often and the slow process will begin. I have a list of amps I need to try with them in the next few months. It could also be that I just played with high end woofer/tweeters for long enough over the past year that they grew on me and now that I’m making my way to panels I realize they won’t win me back anymore. That’s also a possibility that we all haven’t thought about. Maybe this is just how panels sounded for me before I got into the Wilson’s, magicos,vivid audios and now I am intoxicated by their sound? Too many variables guys to make a decision so early in this game. If living with Wilson, magico, vivid, etc all this time changed my flavor of sound, then it could explain why my initial impression of the Neolith is what it is. Maybe I’m no longer an electrostatic guy ? In any case, this would not mean the Neoliths failed me. It could have been the same exact thing with the 15a, clx etc. We would never know. Maybe this is a learning experience that I may have been converted and now I won’t go back to panels ever again. Right now there’s no tweeter/woofer that grabs my attention. If I were to go back to speakers, I may go back to Wilson audio and try Alexia 2s and possibly magic m3 right after. However, my mind is far from being there. I still have so much to do here. |
@minorl, WCSS buys from the used marketplace so sometimes there is no "dealer" to rely on for assistance. The Block monos he's getting to try on the neoliths are a loaner pair from a dealer friend. I'm interested in the Block/Neolith combo to see how good the amps are and will there be any synergy. I'm hoping WCSS can wring every last drop of performance from the Neoliths so we can find out if they are keepers, or another step along the path. |
A few more thoughts...…..Music is all about dynamics, even chamber music. It is ok if it is not your 1st priority, as viber6 admits with his own stats. I do not need to hear the Neoliths, as the esl membrane is what it is, and can only give a certain amount of " meat on the bones " that horns and other types of speakers give you. Detail, smoothness, delicacy, spatiality,and other similar attributes are received from listening to stats. Any stats. But huge dynamics, no way. I feel WC will find this out sooner than later, with whatever amps he uses. I also feel, that ime, speakers such as the Neos, well any good set of speakers, deserves a room where the entire front wall ( behind the speakers ) should be equal from left to center to right ( more critical with panels ), and the room should be somewhat larger than what wc has now. Believe it, or not, but for what I am looking for in a system, I would not trade my upgraded, tweaked and modified Lascalas for a pair of Neoliths, even as an equal trade. I would sell the Neos and go back to horns ( maybe a pair of JBL 67000s, the new PBN horns, or the Volti Vittoras ). I would not have the room for a pair of the AG Trio XDs ( which would be my ultimate choice ). Sorry wc, if I spoke out of line, but I feel you are still an amateur at this, as after all of this time and exposure to some great equipment, you still are somewhat clueless as to what YOU want. I am actually getting a bit bored with this thread. WC, you need your dedicated listening room, and you need horns. Thats it for now. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I just want to say that we may be looking at this the wrong way. First, for the money WC has paid for equipment, especially speakers, there shouldn't be any reason why the dealer or manufacturer wouldn't come by his house to help in set up and offer suggestions. Second, it may not be the equipment. It may be the room. A good idea would be to download the Audiotools app (free), play white noise from a test CD like stereophiles test CD and see where the faults are with the system and room. This is why I added bass traps in the corners behind my speakers. I had a serious bass hump that needed fixing. Fortunately, my Krell KBX balanced crossover does have adjustments to help. just saying. For the money spent and the quality of the equipment, the dealer or manufacturer should step up and assist. Maybe an integrated amp just doesn't cut it with these speakers. I find that hard to believe with the DAG or gryphon. As far as high frequency roll offs are concerned. I'm not buying that one with these speakers. but, that is very easy to test. With the audiotools app and test CD you could see clearly the frequency response with pure white noise. enjoy |
WC, Since I am in medicine, I have seen many ignorant doctors such as you describe. You're right about that. But even the best doctors don't understand much of what is going on in the brain and body. Our understanding of biology is at a much more primitive level than that of a college physics major in that field. I am certainly not a physicist, but the physics of electrostatic membranes versus dynamic drivers is elementary, so it is obvious that for dynamics on the loud end of the scale, electrostatics don't compete at all with dynamic speakers. The lesser understood fact is that large curved panels have inferior HF response at the best listening chair compared to things like the smaller CLX or the Magico at any volume level, soft or loud. You can improve things with tweaking speaker positions, but the differences remain essentially the same. Just accept the Neo for what it is, as well as other speakers for what they are, all with advantages and disadvantages. Amps make a difference, but don't change the relative advantages/disadvantages of the speaker itself or the complete system. |
It has nothing to do with dynamics. And as far as physics, I can believe a lot of it but not always 100% true. For instance, how many times have doctors told a patient “he won’t be able to ever walk again” then fast forward 3 years and the person is doing jumping jacks and running marathons. Where’s the logic there? No explanation other than sheer will power. |
WC, The Dag amps are one of the few that keep increasing their power capabilities into very low impedances. For example, the Bryston 7B is 600 into 8 ohms, but only 900 into 4, and probably much less into 1, whereas your Dag integrated will probably put out 1600 or so into 1. The trouble is that most amp manufacturers don't test output into 2 ohms or less, probably because there are relatively few electrostatic owners compared to the number of dynamic speaker owners. I have spoken to the companies and the techs can only give estimates. I agree with 4425 that if your Dag doesn't sufficiently please you, the problem is the Neo. Even at moderate volumes, the reason that the HF of the Neo are less than the Magico is that the large curved panel will roll off the highs compared to the smaller panels of the CLX or the SOTA dynamic tweeter of the Magico. For the tap of a triangle which requires 1 watt or less, any amp will demonstrate the lesser HF of the Neo compared to other designs. Actually the real issue is that you are trying to convert the refined Neo into a gang-busting dynamic speaker. The Neo has a lot of everything to offer, but if dynamic sound is your top priority, go for horns, etc. No powerhouse amp will make the Neo panel compete dynamically with a horn or even a conventional dynamic speaker, because of the physics of electrostatic membranes compared to dynamic midrange/HF drivers. Please accept physics before financially getting too deep into amps for the Neo. |
Remember, I tried this same thing with the vivid audio g1 and magico. Both sounded like different animals with more power and the Neoliths are far but far more difficult to drive. Not many speakers drop to 0.5ohms. The high frequencies in the Neolith will suffer since it’s the most demanding part of the speaker. |
Not part of the thread but have to chime in. IMO if the Agostino integrated doesn’t sound great and drive the speakers well then the speakers have issues. I don’t think anyone disputes that Agostino amps play in the top 10% of all SS amps. The audiophile insecurity that somehow mating a preamp and amp in one chassis is a compromise is simply mental. I know as I’ve thought the same thing at times but realize it’s just in my head. You can try other SS amps for fun but they won’t change the situation in a meaningful way except to perhaps diminish the overall sound quality. You’ve got a great piece! I wish I had one. |
Alpha NR pc beginning to settle down. WC, if you think you have eard the full virtues of the Lux M 900u s, those powecords are redefining the Lux extent of talents. You need to try them on your upcoming Monos. In the meantime , give the Momentum the chance to blossom completely with an Alpha or Sigma plugged up it’s butt. |
WC, skootb makes an important suggestion that the lower power Pass XA200.8 may be more suitable than the higher power X1000.5. It is a more advanced design, and still has good power. The quality of the 200 combined with decent power makes it a better choice for music appreciation than the 1000, of course pending a listening test. This is not a croc/hippo contest. At this level, it would be better to follow classy tennis matches between great artists, rather than contests between 2 brutes. You can get much cheaper pro audio YUGE monster amps with poor audio quality. I don't think you want that. I don't exaggerate too much. Remember that stats are about natural refinement first and foremost. |
Temps in 20's here already...5 to 8 inches of snow and sleet. I wish I had the state-of-the-art NEOLITHS and MONSTER AMPS to keep me warm. whitecamaross...I am sure your setup sounds great and is only going to get better. enjoy!!! |
WC, Very true, all of it. Talent is great, but skill and hard work yield the ultimate payoff. Forgive me if I have sounded critical, but you know that I really want to help you fulfill your dreams. Yes, the Neos will benefit from the "best" amp you can get. Just go for quality and purity of sound so the Neo can be best revealed. Monster amps are no good if they don't have the clarity and tonal balance you want. If the monster amp has all these great qualities, wonderful. But it is unlikely. Everything in audio is a compromise. I have played 13 Stradivari violins varying in price from $1 million to $10 million. My favorite was a famous expensive one on the cover of a 1987 recording to commemorate the 250th anniversary of Strad's death. Many of the others were relatively mediocre sounding compared to other makers' much cheaper violins. But tastes are subjective, and many top international performers change their instruments for personal reasons, so there are no absolutes. Every instrument has good and bad points with compromises all the way. |
Neolith to techno dude: although I’m built in Canada, I’ve got this thing about being large and in charge that only certain crazy audiophiles dare to try which is why I always come back to my mother land :) Remember, I don’t have but maybe a week with them. Home runs don’t really exist at this level. You still need “seat time” and if I win or fail, I will still manage to speak about the Neolith at length. I’ll be able to say why It did not work or why it is unbelievable and the reasons why some stupid people can’t get it to sound right. Remember, I’ve never disliked panels. They can be tricky to place correctly, but once you do then it’s hard to beat them. Owning the Neolith adds an incredible amount of value to my resume. Coming from Polk audio lsi7 and now sitting with Neoliths for some reason makes the song “ started from the bottom now we here” play in my head Theres a reason why Dale Earnhardt junior couldn’t fill his dad’s shoes. You know the difference between talent and skill? Talent you have naturally, but skill only comes from hours and hours of beating on your craft. I’m trying to build the latter :) |
WC to God: « Please make that I find amplifiers that will make the Neoliths sing dynamically and their highs as clear as the Magicos. » God to WC: « There are limits to my power with that kind of speakers my son. » ... Satan to WC ´s dealers: « I created the biggest unsatisfactory speakers just for you guys , [ evil laugher] . » |
The Neoliths deserve world class amps. You can’t skimp on it. I have 2 integrateds That do the job fine but I know deep down I’ve not heard tbe neoltihs yet. I love knowing I get to play with them and try all sorts of amps and also you all need to remember one thing: if I had bought Alexia 2, I would have bought dag 400s and called it a day because that’s a known combo with amazing synergy. The fact that I bought Neoliths will allow me to keep trying many more amps in order to keep this thread alive. They become “instruments” rather than speakers. They need careful attention and will show kinks in any amplifiers armor. |
WC, I wish the best of care for you. Do you really want the most powerful amp if another reasonably powerful amp has more clarity or even the tonal flavor you want? Your advisors are steering you into false arbitrary directions based on the profits they will make from you. These advisors are not qualified to shine my shoes musically. Same goes for ML staff and most high end companies that go to shows and exhibit with other manufacturers not for valid technical reasons but for practical co-promotional business reasons. I am suspicious and contemptuous of most of them, who are out to deceive and steal money in the process. If you want power with control of the Neo woofers and panels, almost nothing will beat the Dag M400. Pure class A is for sweetness and linearity, not dynamics. Tubes will not control the woofer like the Dag. In addition, the relative mellowness of tubes (although ARC has less of the typical tubey sound) is inappropriate for the Neo panel, which is more rolled off than that of the CLX. It certainly is more rolled off compared to the Magico S5, according to your descriptions. No, I haven't heard the Neo, but every large curved panel I have heard was rolled off compared to the smaller version, corroborated by the laws of physics. When you realize that I am correct after spending over $100K more, I won't gloat and say I told you so, I will just feel sad. But I am glad you listened to me and moved the Neo 5 feet from the wall. Otherwise, you would have been lost and regretted your purchase. Keep them on wheels so you can do more adjusting as you live with them. Forget the comparatively minor effects of spikes, etc. The Neos are too unwieldy to bother with them for now. |
FLASH ALERT. Search Merrill Element in the forum, click on the 1st entry, Merrill Audio on tour 8/20/18. On 8/24/18 there is a post by Merrill himself, announcing that the Element 114 will be released about the end of the year. It will be a stereo amp, priced $9-12K. It will be of lower power--I am guessing 200 watts into 8 ohms. Since the more expensive 118 and 116 each double the power as the impedance is halved, it is possible that the 114 will be 400 into 4, 800 into 2. Even if not quite true, this is plenty of power for a sane person who wants musical enjoyment instead of blasting. He says that the 114 speed, detail, transparency are in a class of the 118 and 116, but you have to listen hard to realize that the 118 and 116 have a little more space. Yes, monos are better than stereos, but at what price? The 118 is $36K, and 116 is $22K for monos. MAYBE you can justify stretching it for the 116 rather than 114, but since this is a new technology ripe for new competition, I can’t see spending the additional $10K for the 116 or the additional $22K for the 118. It will take hard listening and financial soul searching to justify the additional big expense. At this point, nobody should be spending serious money until these Merrill’s are available and broken in. Even the $22K 116 is extraordinary value if the sound lives up to the technical talk. I am sitting pretty with my superb $2K Mytek Brooklyn while I wait. Work with a dealer who has done thorough listening to all the models, and then visit and listen yourself, with a reasonable home trial. At retail, they are cheap enough for the sound value if confirmed. I will be reporting in due time on these potential giant killers. Call off the wedding of the big name amps with their dinosaur lipstick horse and shiny buggy creaky wheels. |
WC, It is natural for you to seek to get all you can from the Neo because of the huge investment. I try to do the same in my medical practice to help wherever I can, against many handicaps. Just realize some basic laws of physics that should give you a realistic perspective. You have seen dynamic woofers with excursions of many inches, and even the visual blur from significant excursions of midrange drivers. These huge excursions enable tremendous dynamic range. But electrostatic membranes are tightly sandwiched between the stators, with allowable excursions of fractions of millimeters. This tight control prevents huge dynamics, but does enable accuracy with resolution. Horn drivers are a superior form of dynamic driver, because the smaller excursions than regular dynamic drivers are naturally amplified by the horn. This enables more accuracy at a given volume level, plus more dynamics with an equivalent excursion compared to a conventional dynamic driver. Even though ML claims you may drive the Neo with 1000 watts, you still will not get the dynamics that mrdecibel has with his Klipsch La Scala's 104 dB efficiency using a mere 10-50 watts or so. This is the laws of physics talking. Just accept the Neo for the reasonable excellent compromise design that it is. I have been to live concerts of big pieces with such power and spatial breadth that not even a horn system can match for either dynamics or accuracy. That's what live concerts are for, so don't try to make your home system do everything, because it can't. Just enjoy it for the nuanced and peaceful enjoyment it can offer. I learned this a long time ago. That is my heartfelt advice. |
WC, Many good points in favor of the Neo compared to Wilson and Magico. The fact that vocals and instruments linger longer with the Neo means that low level sounds are better revealed with the Neo as the sound decays from higher volume to silence. This is electrostatic accuracy which is superior to that of dynamic speakers. But appreciation of any type of music is not about putting up a fight like between a croc and hippo. I don't try to play as loudly as a trumpet player can, because the violin is not designed to do that. A great stat like the CLX will produce the most lifelike sound at a fairly realistic SPL, but with better accuracy than almost anything else, for nearly all music. I wish you could come up from Florida on Dec 16 to meet me, tjassoc and your buddy RIAA, to see what I mean. |
Having owned a lot of Logan’s, I don’t seem to detect anything sluggish about the speakers nor do I hear any lack of slam/dynamics. That said, no it’s no Wilson which I still feel is the most dynamic speaker I’ve owned to the point that it almost startles you. Both, Wilson and magico do things differently. The Neolith makes the vocals and instruments linger longer. I’ve always said it, you can’t have a small speaker put up any sort of fight to something as massive as the Neolith. You can’t have any crocodile dare to fight a hippo (true fact actually) because it’s too massive to even put a dent on it with a bite. I can understand the clx having something to say about the Neolith but see it’s also a big panel. As far as bass, no the clx would need bass to compete. Lastly, let’s not forget that the Neolith has adjustable crossovers that allow you to dial in the front firing woofer based on the distance between you and the speaker and you can also dial how much bass you want out of it (-8db, -4db, 0db). I currently have it at -8db which is enough bass for me. Let’s try and see what happens once more horsepower arrives. |
mrdecibel, No inappropriate behavior intended in the BR. I like practicing in the BR because of the mirror and natural enhancement of the sound. The reverb doesn’t kill the sound because my ear is close to the violin. Untrained singers like to sing in the shower because the volume is increased in the small space. Send me pictures of your EQ, russlaud (at) gmail. WC, take note of what mrdecibel just said about the inability of the CLS to provide sufficient dynamics with any amp. He may not have tried super high power/high current amps you are trying, but his overall point is valid. In like manner, the woofers of the Neo may not keep up with the faster sound of the panel. The CLS was a full range stat whose panel had a large horizontal width and was taller than the panel of the Neo. Therefore it had a larger total area than the Neo panel. Of course, the dynamics of the Neo are mainly in the bass and lower midrange, but the dynamics of the panel are decent but not comparable to that of a full dynamic speaker. The Neo is for people who want dynamics as a higher priority than the electrostatic purity, which is best found in other designs such as the CLX. If you read my post about the live music in the church last week, the true characteristic of live music is purity across the entire freq range. For over 95% of music, volumes are not high, but clarity is paramount in importance. |
I owned the original ML CLS when they were introduced, paired with a pair of Janis W3 ( the 12 inchers ), as I had a pair of model 1's ( 15s ), but were too " slow " to keep up with the CLS. Enjoyed their attributes, of which there were many, but was not my cup of tea, as I liked music louder than the CLS were capable of playing ( with any amp ). I also built a better pair of stands for the panels, to prevent them from " rocking ". The Janis had no problem. viber6, offering to play violin in the men's bathroom for someone, is, well, I do not know about that. P.S. I am ready to part with my eq. LOL ...Enjoy MrD. |