I’m in talks to bring a gryphon amplifier from Europe. Domestic dealers don’t discount gryphon so I have to look in another continent to buy it for a deal even if it’s 220v.
I actually plan to try many more amps in 2019 with these speakers.
Some of you have messaged me asking me to try your personal amps with my neoltihs so that may come to fruition but do you want me to post my impressions here or just tell you via private messages?
Man I really regret selling those 200.5 Monos.... that amp could have been magical at this time.
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@techno_dude I’d say that the electrostics give you a “spooky” feeling when set up properly due to their dipole design. Things seem to spread more so that does give you the illusion of more air because it is using the room to create a larger picture.
When I started this journey, I selected panels first and then over the years I converted to awesome woofer/tweeter speakers. If I am a person that does home theater and music evenly, I’d choose a Wilson or a focal anyday over an electrostatic. The dynamics are a must have in home theater and unless you’re getting neoltihs all around your room for home theater, I don’t see any home theater with electrostatics Beating a Wilson or a focal set up. If your priority is music, specially instruments, it’s hard as hell to best a panel. The only pain is setting them up and being patient.
What I love about panels is that you can sit for hours and hours listening and you don’t really get any fatigue.
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I may be wrong, maybe lesser amps can be compensated with sota preamps in the chain. I am not a big buck preamplifier believer , I am more of guy of amplifier doing the job of giving the sweetness , tone and soundstage to the speakers. Maybe the Ref 10 can do that earlier in the chain.
WC , would you say the Neoliths or 15A ( electrostatics) are much better at putting air between the instruments than the best dynamic speakers you eard ? Or just a little bit better . |
“The [Rane] fell alike upon the just and upon the unjust, and for nothing was there a why and a wherefore.”
An apropos gem.... from W. Somerset Maugham 'Of Human Bondage'
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Or....Don't Rane on Camaro's Parade!
Viber...I like your posts. Keep them coming. The above is purely in jest. |
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Or....."How to Beat a Horse Completely To Death" |
It's a compliment to my influence that I inspire so many jokes. This forum may one day be renamed, "the expensive amp joke."
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mikepaul,
I will take your advice and tell my guest at the sweet shop to do it my way using your clever descriptions. See, I can be funny, too.
Seriously, join me at the concert. No men's room concert out of respect, no ice cream, but there are goodies at intermission.
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Dustin Hoffman .....Rane Man
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mrdecibel,
It is true this thread started about just amps. But since all systems are a chain of components, it is much more informative to discuss amps in the context of a system. Of course, nobody listens to an amp alone, they listen to the whole system of which the amp is an important part. Then some people feel the preamp is the most important part, others say the cartridge, speaker, etc. One reason this thread is the most popular is that all these things are discussed, which provide entry points for many different perspectives. And I even got in a comment about politicians, which was relevant to how to have dispassionate discussions with facts instead of emotions.
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grey9hound,
I agree with nearly all you just said. It is certainly factual. You are right that as an immersed player, I hear my closer musicians emphasized in comparison to the ones on the other side of the stage. But even the ones on the other side have more impact to me than if I was sitting in the audience several rows back. Everything is more detailed and exciting, although admittedly some things more so than others. I have had the experience of walking in from the back of the hall, late to the rehearsal, walking closer, then finally sitting on the stage close up. The balance is fine from far back, remains fine closer, but closer yields more detail and excitement. It is not just because things are louder close up. The tonal balance gets more brilliant at a closer distance.
The question of brilliance versus brightness is interesting. Brilliance is the ideal, and brightness certainly has a negative connotation. Brilliance is the utmost revelation of detail at all freq in a coherent manner. This is the true character of live, unamplified music. I will admit that I am creating more brightness with the EQ, which is the preferential emphasis of HF in sometimes an unnatural way. But the tonal balance of live music is brighter at a closer distance, although in live music it is natural. This is because the shorter wavelengths of HF are absorbed by layers of air more than lower freq. My electrostatic speakers are far less colored and more natural than most dynamic speakers, so I get away with the brightness which comes across as also more naturally brilliant. Still, even my speakers are not the real thing, although very close to it with accurate electronics and correct natural volume levels. There are compromises on the path to more brilliance, as some tonal aberrations creep in. Try this on your car radio system. Experiment with increasing the treble in the various settings. Without tone controls, the car radio is really muddy, but with some treble boost the increased clarity is worth the tradeoff in tonal balance. What good is "correct" tonal balance if the whole thing is equally muddy at all freq? I have gotten free tickets to concerts, but the far back seat had sound that was so muddy that I preferred listening to the sound in the car at the same volume level.
On a more basic level, I realize that most people prefer laid back sound. Why is this? I am certainly unhappy about being assaulted with too loud sound, whether live or from an audio system. But I want to hear all the detail in my music. Why wouldn't anyone else feel the same? We can enjoy music casually from the car radio or on youtube with the bad stock sound of the computer. But if you go through the time, trouble and expense of setting up and improving your audio system, why bother if you are not getting the most detail out of it? And you have to tell your family you need a dedicated room for audio, so they are put off. Don't interpret "detail" as a bad word--when you have a revealing system the detail just jumps out effortlessly and then you really enjoy the music more. It is more relaxing since you don't have to listen keenly to get it. How's that seeming paradox for someone who claims they want to just relax with the laid back sound of their system?
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viber, apology accepted. Just let the man be.....This entire thread was based on amplifier comparisons, at all price levels. To throw an eq in there, at this stage in the game, is secondary when wc is still " listening to amps ". That was my biggest point in all of this. It was not his priority or necessity. The Ref 5 se is the last AR preamp I can honestly say I have some experience with. My remembrance, which is much more recent than with the Classe 6 ( I borrowed the AR, I owned the Classe ), is that the AR is quite a few notches above the Rane, which, I assumed, not be as good as the REF 10. Anyway, we are all friends here, and I am sorry if I offended you or made you feel you are just like the rest of us here. Enjoy ! MrD. |
mrdecibel,
I just have the hearing acuity of someone my age, not bad, not great. But I have judgment and experience, and so do you. At times, you have also voiced strong recommendations, which is fine because you are sincere and passionate and qualified to do so. Instead of claiming that your horns are grossly inferior to stats, I make it objective and say that for the priorities you have, the horns are the logical choice. That is not a God complex. The same goes for people who like tubes. We and everyone else know the disadvantages of tubes, but it is proper to say that if someone likes a "je ne sais qua" or romantic type of sound, it is logical that they would prefer tubes. (By the way, if politicians stopped calling each other names, and instead said that the other position is understandable if certain assumptions are made, we'd all have some respect for them instead of what is going on now. I am not engaging in name calling, but trying to be dignified and somewhat scholarly in providing useful info.)
You are right about many of the deficiencies of a stock Rane. Nevertheless, it is a great product as is, for the purpose intended. That idoesn't suit your needs, which is fine for you. But if I came to listen to your system, I might find that I preferred it with the Rane, adjusted in ways I cannot predict. Just don't say that is not needed in your system--just say more precisely that your sensibilities prefer not using it.
But for the purposes of WC's thread, he has agreed with me that the tone controls help the system performance with the Dag. I have little doubt that some form of EQ would help get even more performance (sparkle, etc.) from the Plinius, even with the Ref 10 in the system. If he didn't require very high volumes, the Ref 10 electronics could be bypassed. This would be especially true of the Emotiva amp with its high 29 dB of gain. That could give an advantage to the Emotiva compared to other amps with the more usual 25-26 dB of gain. Your experience with the Luminous certainly proves how eliminating electronics yields great benefits. Even I, with my lowly and somewhat flawed Rane am able to eliminate the need for a line stage.
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What multichannel amp (at least 5 channels) would you recommend in the 1000$ to 2200$ range?
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@Viber6 Emotiva is "Bright " sounding if pushed, at all.I own the LPA-1 and have had it for years . I use it for Center,surround L&Rand the Outdoor pool speakers It is not as bright as any of the XPAs.I had the Emotiva XPA-1 Gen2 monos . I used them here on the Tekton Double Impact. They had Execllent Bass and overall pretty darn good .... for the money. If i cranked up the volume to get 85 -100 db peaks it became harsh sounding.
But, I realize that YOU like a "bright" sound .Therefore you will like the Emotiva . Most of use dodo not.
There is a difference in "Brilliance" and "Bright".....at least to me
To me Bright is or can be harsh , but Brilliance is lit up or elevated in that range , but not harsh . At least that is the way i always understood it to be .
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@Viber6.You describe the "upfront" , "in your face " front row listening experience as , "matter of fact". You seem to think THAT presentation is preferred by the rest of us .
I have to agree with MR decibel here..You for some reason think that everyone else prefers to hear the presentation as upfront or in your face , like you do. Sadly ,you are mistaken
I can assure you that it is not what most of us prefer. I would say that because you
sometimes
participate in the presentation , is why you prefer the upfront , in your face sound.There is a reason why they MIX the recording. If you are upfront or first row at most any presentation, the sound will not be good . It will be uneven. You know this .You will hear a lot more of whatever or whoever is playing closest to you,and many times you will not hear the rest of the band or instruments .Actually, most albums are mixed pretty evenly or balanced. I think the reason you prefer the EQ is so that you can tune it to sound like you are upfront or participating and getting blasted by the instruments near you.just my opinion of course.
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RIAA..you're killing me!
I can't go because we would all end up at the ice cream place--Thomas Sweets in Princeton..and he will INSIST that there is only ONE flavor to order,only in a CUP not a CONE. Any other flavor is washed out and bland by comparison to his favorite...because it a FACT...and do not add SPRINKLES...just a waste of money.....lol
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WC,
Now that you have seen the light about the merits of a few cheap items, I could recommend other cheap amps to compete with the Plinius. For your needs, the best would be the top amp from Emotiva. I heard last year's top XPA2 gen 3. It was powerful, fast, sparkling, with even a little sweetness. You can try it for 30 days risk free direct from Emotiva. The new Reference is more powerful, and about $1500. Look for a holiday special. The next choice would be my Mytek Brooklyn Amp, which is 300 watts into 8.4,2 ohms. It is possibly the most neutral of the group of Plinius, Emotiva, Mytek, but not sterile or with biting HF. Only $2K at Music Direct with free 60 day trial. The sound was not significantly changed at over 100 hours break in. I now have about 400 hours on it.
But I wouldn't try these other amps just yet. Let your Plinius settle in, and enjoy it for what it does for your music, not because you want to impress audio people. You are actually in a nice position similar to me, because I am awaiting the promised SOTA Merrill Element 114 at a reasonable $9-12K. I wouldn't even spend money on an additional Plinius until the Elements are evaluated. I guarantee that I will be making my report here. Who knows, if the Elements are not what I think, I will consider the Plinius. Thanks for your assessment of that. For now, don't even consider spending money on expensive ARC tube amps or others. They may have the romantic glow you like, but I predict they won't have the sparkle of the Plinius. Don't spend a lot of money on dinosaur technology--it's time to consider new tech like the Elements.
You may have ignored my previous advice on all these amps, but you now have a different perspective and I hope you consider them. |
Cmon MikePaul...Lets go meet GOD in Princeton. We’ll just look for somebody resembling David Ogden Stiers playing a fiddle. (Hopefully not in the Mens Room where the private auditions are being conducted!!) |
viber, reading your response, it is all in defense of the fact that I stated the Rane ( remember I have one, is dirtier ). Yes, ime, it is the equivalent of the line stage of a Classe 6, based on my memory, but with a little less warmth of the 6. You just feel " what viber wants, everybody should want ". Difference between you and me. You want people to duplicate you and your ideas, because let’s face, you have a god complex. Shall we take a poll ? You are forgetting the individuality of this hobby. You are still wrong, completely. Can we be done with this. BTW, I never used the words " cheap electronics ". I specifically pointed to the Rane eq. We both know how bad the input gain controls are on the Rane. Do you think WC would not hear that, and that is a reason the Rane is dirty, as we have discussed ?. If you want to continue your argument, come on over to the fuse thread. Enjoy ! MrD. |
mikepaul,
Instead of your sarcasm about the Rane, why don't you open your mind and try it the way I have described. I could come to your place and show you myself. Better yet, since you are in Central NJ, meet me on Dec 16 at 3 PM rehearsal and 4 PM concert at Princeton Universalist Church at 50 Cherry Hill Road off 206. I'll give you a demo that tops any audio show. The piece is Handel's Messiah.
WC disproved your claim that the Ref 10 could have made the difference. It was the Plinius. If the Plinius sound doesn't change, then the Dag is dead. It is NOT about the power, as bigddesign3 would like to believe. The Dag just has a warmer, less sparkling personality at any volume level, period.
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RIAA...maybe...my mind is a little foggy from back in the day!..lol
But I do remember HUNKA BUNKA! |
mrdecibel,
My friend, you are making a few mistakes. Since you have not personally heard the Ref 10 in your own system, you cannot make a judgment that the Rane as a line stage is dirtier than the Ref 10. The word, "dirtier," is misleading and ambiguous. Any tube line stage will be smoother than the Rane to the extent that it rolls off the HF. To the uneducated listener, the tube stage will also be smoother than the Luminous since it rounds off the "edges" compared to the more transparent and clearer Luminous. This type of listener may think that the Luminous is "dirtier," but is missing out on the fact that "warts and all" clarity is the ideal, and the true characteristic of live music. Live music is both nasty and beautiful at different times.
Second, you make an artificial distinction between tone and detail. Live music, by definition, has both tone and detail at the highest level of quality. You acknowledge that electrostatics have the lowest distortion, and the most accuracy in tone/detail at modest volume levels. But large scale dynamics are very important to you, making stats unacceptable for your purposes. That's OK--you are entitled to your preferences and value system. Someone can enjoy the Neo for its open window AND accurate tone quality, at times raucous and at other times smooth and sweet.
Third, I find it odd that you say someone is nuts to drive the expensive Neo with cheap electronics (at least the Plinius, but also the Rane). Apart from your Luminous, you are on record saying that the Rane (especially your modified one) as a line stage is better than most semi-expensive line stages. For some time you have extolled the greatness of your system, all components of which are inexpensive. I believe you on those assertions. It is a credit to your long experience in the audio business where you have seen the expensive mediocrities foisted upon the naive audiophile, and you truly enjoy the superiority of your modestly priced components. You also are justifiably proud of your ability to assemble this system, being independently resourceful and not having to put yourself in the gullible position of being swallowed by the jaws of the audio sharks in the business. I am glad that WC has reached the milestone of seeking reasonably priced superb components.
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So does a great Led Zep song "FOOL IN THE RANE" |
MikePaul, Do you mean the Club Bene off of Route 35? It changed names over the years. Use to see bands like Poco, America, The Outlaws there...I might have left before it turned into a Jazz club. |
My favorite WHO song has new meaning now and forevermore....Love RANE o'er me |
There was a great jazz supper club in Sayreville NJ..back in the late 90's .
I wish I could remember the name. aaagghh. Oh well. Dirt cheap. Decent food.Great seats. Great contemporary jazz musicians: Richard Elliot,The Rippingtons,Peter White ,Acoustic Alchemy..to name few. |
uh,hello? mr d?..i believe u are cuttin' da line. lol
rane.
hadda say it. |
He would love to meet BJ. |
I'm originally from Old Bridge (Sprung from Cages on Highway 9). I'll leave them at either the curb of Springsteen's childhood home...or would you prefer Bon Jovi's in Sayreville? |
RIAA, my best friend lives in Jersey. What would you want $ wise, to allow my friend come pick them up for me off the curb ? Believe me, they will get great use. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Although I have not heard the AR REF 10 ( I have listened to the Plinius 103, when it was introduced to the market ( unfortunately not in my system, but still sounded nice ) the Rane will likely sound " dirtier " than the REF 10, in flat mode. Why for heavens sake would you want this piece of equipment in the chain preceding 80 K Neos. The Rane is dirtier than my Luminous. Tone for detail ? You do not buy Neos for tone. You buy them for detail. A completely " open window " experience. The tone will come from the recordings. Viper, remember, you are a different type of listener than most, and that is what you are not understanding. You are listening to older recordings, recordings you say " need eq ". WC does not. Let him " hear " and experience what the Plinius is like, not to change it into something it is not. He is already familiar with the REF 10, but somehow hears things, differently, with each amp change ( in other words, it is a clear window ). I value you and appreciate you, but I totally disagree with you, and this is how it will be. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Oh oh... I see fireworks coming soon...
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riaa...which curb? I am in central NJ ...I could be there before you can say "Rane" |
Is it a universal consensus that using a home theater bypass with superior components does not contribute to sound degradation?
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I just put my Dag 400's out at the curb for the scrap man. |
I tried the ref10 with the momentum integrated by using the home theater pass through input on the mometum and it was a little better than its own preamp but it was nowhere near the Plinius/ref10. Not even close. |
Why is the Plinius amp getting all the credit?
Uhh,maybe the world class REF10 preamp has a 'lil something to do with it???
I betcha?
The proper source component and preamp will always make an amp sound better. Not vice-a-versa.
and let's not forget the equali....ahhh scratch that. |
WC,
Good observations on the merits of the cheap Plinius. Except that the cheap Plinius is giving you 190 MPH. Trust me, adding the cheap Rane will give you 250 MPH. I don't know much about cars, but in that area, more money buys higher performance engines, although maybe an expert would correct me on that. But in audio, as you have just discovered, more money does not necessarily buy better performance. In fact, the audio industry caters to fickle, musically uninformed audiophiles who want to impress others with the money they spend. In many areas of life, the elite rich enjoy the fact that not many people can afford what they have. The item doesn't HAVE to be better--it just has to be expensive. I am not a basher of the rich, because they have earned their money and deserve respect for their success. They are entitled to spend their money as they choose. Sometimes it buys better quality, and other times it doesn't. |
twoleftears,
Love your ID. Yes, bridged amps usually are not recommended for very low impedance loads. The same is true for a single stereo amp with a topology of parallel circuits to boost output. WC may get away with this because the low impedance of the Neo is only in HF, so if the music doesn't contain much HF, it is OK. For midrange and bass, pure electrostatics can have very high impedances like 20 or more ohms, so bridging may work for certain music. However, the woofers in the Neo are used fairly high into the midrange, so the impedance of the woofers and the stat panel may not be that high. Unlike dynamic speakers with unpredictable impedance curves, stats are like capacitors which have an inverse relationship of impedance to frequency. |
So far I’ve listened to gryphon Diablo 300, momentum integrated and ref10/Plinius sa103. The latter is superior than the first 2. Bolder mids, bigger soundstage and more sledge hammer bottom end. More sparkle as well. As I said to one of my connections, I’m shocked at how good this sounds as a combo and yet the amp is nowhere near as expensive as some of the amps I’ve owned before. This amp really turned me upside down And what makes it more interesting is that it wasn’t a ton of money. Of course I’ll try more amps so I can see how much more these neoltihs have in the tank; it’s almost a must do for me with a speaker like this. Having the Neolith and not trying different amps is like having a race car and not driving it at 190mph. It’s just a waste not to do it. |
mrdecibel,
Both you and I are not badgering anyone to accept our advice, but our experience and desire to help by imparting our knowledge is why we spend time posting. The plain fact is that I believe one's chosen tonal balance is even slightly more important than transparency. The system doesn't even have to be of high quality--for example my stock car radio system benefits enormously from the tone controls. That car system is so rolled off that even boosting the treble to the max is still musically better than without it. Most music is improved, and the announcer's voice is clearer although admittedly tonally off. I prefer the tonal aberrations to muddy sound which wrecks everything. To choose an extreme case, put your Rane in your system, but REDUCE freq above 2000 Hz by 12 dB. This will make your previously excellent system sound so muddy and worse than any car radio without tone control adjustments. It is obvious the EQ has a profound effect, good and bad. It just needs to be used carefully, using YOUR ears as a guide. No need to call in audio consultants to do measurements. Since WC himself admitted that the Neo was ho-hum initially, and that boosting the treble by +4 was a big benefit, I continue to discuss this. Other people here have found EQ useful.
By the way, I still enjoy music from poor audio formats and systems, like youtube, and sitting way off axis relaxing in the bedroom listening to a decent boom box system. And there is nothing as musically satisfying as hearing great old violinists in 1930 recordings, like Fritz Kreisler, George Enesco. Today's young violinists have good technique, but more superficial musicality than the great old masters, so even though today's recordings have better sound, that's not enough. So I listen both for the excitement of modern sound and for soulful artistry in mediocre old sound.
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@MrDYou're right. Forgot about that one. The integrated amps don't seem to be able to have enough power for such a large speaker. I personally love tube preamps with solid state Class A amplifiers running balanced XLRs.
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bigdesign3, I though WC listened through the Gryphon as well, making it 3 ? Enjoy ! MrD. |
Viber, with a violin under your chin much of your life, you obviously are " used to " certain characteristics of sound many listeners do not have experience with. That can be true with the fact of just being " on the stage " or " in the pit ", again not experienced by many. I really do not see why you PUSH the eq so much. Granted, it works for you, but in reality, it is a band aid to better sound. I appreciate the fact that to your ears only 1 violin recording needs no eq, which I find very sad, but...….Admittedly, not every recording I own is wonderful. However, they are balanced. I do not wish to change it. On the same cd ( as an example my recent listen to the Rolling Stones " Sticky Fingers ", a few songs are a bit harsh, lean, bright, etc. But on others, smoother, rounder, warmer, etc. But what I listen for, is the ability of all the RS members playing together, tightly, if you know what I mean. And this is due to the studio folks, taking the individual tracks and putting them all together. I have no need or desire to change a thing, as I easily accept the recording for what it is. The Luminous unit has made this SO MUCH CLEARER for me to hear more into the recording. Tape hiss is more abundant, when there, being to close to the mike is there. Not to mention the attack and decay of each and every movement of the musicians, and their instruments. The bass line of " Can’t You Hear Me Knock'in ", was before, a little out of place with the mix ( my subs were not quite jelling with the Lascala’s ), not quite. The elimination of any gain stage has made it tight, uniform, coherent, fast, immediate, you get my point. I though my system was excellent before. Now, unbelievable. And, as I said, my speaker / room / listening seat, although not perfect, reveals to me to hear every and all of the most minute little details in my vast library, in an unadulterated, uncolored, and honest way. WC is not ready for eq or tone controls, as he is still trying to find the best combination for his Neos, even if they have a HF roll off. Leave him alone about the EQ, at least for now, that is my professional recommendation. Enjoy ! MrD. |
If you run the Plinius in mono, doesn't that affect their ability to drive very low impedance loads? |
Testing a bunch of amps are going to be a good way to see what's up with the Neoliths. Your on your 2nd now. Just imagine how much fun it will be to try some others. The Neolith can deliver. You know now that testing some new ones will get you more clarity on who is the winner. My God though, you have the ESL that we mostly can dream about.
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@WCSS
I think finding a professional to come in and measure, set-up and possibly add some room treatments would get you closer to great sound for your current and future systems.
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