My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
You are correct with your last statement. When it comes to the M6, it won’t take half-a$$ed amplification. Whatever amplifiers you thought were "awesome" before might not be so good anymore with this speaker. I have 3 sets of monoblocks coming in over the next 6 weeks. I have to start feeding the M6 huge power to see how it behaves and so 1200 watts into 4 ohms might be a great starting point. For now, just know that pass labs is REALLY a total shock for me when it comes to the synergy i find with it and the M series speaker. I actually communicated this to Mike at Suncoast audio and after hearing the 60.8s in here he is now a believer. I think it is the slight warmth of the pass amps, BUT you still have to accommodate the amplifier to the best of your ability by way of better powercords, stands, ground, etc. in order to really make it "click" with the M6. The magico tweeter is ultra-ULTRA revealing which is what some can pick up as "shrill or bright". In order to fine tune this revealing aspect of the speaker you have to investigate and see what amplification and cabling does the trick. No question about it, Wilson plays nicer with a much wider array of electronics than the M6 does. I would love to bring the Wilson XLF in here even though most people would knock it for being 9 years old and "supposedly" not better than my old Alexx. I dont believe for one second that the former Alexx is better than the XLF. Although the Alexx V is on my radar and i am actually going to go listen to it tomorrow with Boulder 2110, 2160, i am not quite sure i want to revisit what i already had (older model). |
M6 is the speaker I heard at a show and thought "this is better than everything else I've heard today, maybe at all". I learned what it costs later and will never be able to afford it. WC should be happy he can. I would love to hear a comparison with the MBL 101 Extreme but they are both costly and heavy to move around. Probably hard to sell used also. |
You are just applying the logic that I have already communicated above...it’s not really a prediction. It’s like predicting that the lakers will either lose or win their next game lol...not really a prediction Ps. The XLF is actually more interesting to me than the alexx v. I never buy the same car twice even if it is redesigned. Not my personality. |
@whitecamaross I will respectfully disagree with you on the XLF vs Alexx. I've heard the Alexandria XLF a few times, but after hearing the Alexx, I'd think going to the XLF is a backwards move or a side step at best. I've never had them in my room, only heard at the same dealer (not my local dealer). And have not directly compared Alexx vs. Alexandria XLF in the same room at the same time. I heard the Alexx V a couple weeks ago with music that I'm familiar with. They had 50 hours on them and the pre/amp were BAT Rex3 and source was Quboz over dCS Rossini DAC+clock. I think the new V model may be a little better, but the owner thought they were mostly just different rather than better than the Alexx v1. Again, YMMV; this is just one man's observations + the owners comments. And I have not heard the Alexx with the BAT combo. |
I’m going to find out if the alexx v tomorrow really impresses me or just makes me feel what i already felt a few months ago with the Alexx. I’m not looking to bring the same sound back in my room and pay another obscene amount of money for just redundancy. I’m a firm believer that buying mk2 of anything when you already had mk1 is often times a bad move. You’re buying 60-70% of the same thing you already had. Here’s one example in which i could justify going from one model to the other: Going from a C7 corvette to a C8. It’s a completely different car. I’ve been vocal about how good of a deal the Alexia 1 is over just about any other wilson speaker when factoring in the depreciation. Now, there won’t be alexia 3 and i expect the new replacement of the Alexia to be a worthy purchase because it is a complete new design just like the XVX was over the xlf. |
I thought that Soulution integrated was an excellent match for M6, just not enough current and power, and perhaps not quite enough resolution. The Magico definitely need a lot of power but that's not all. The journey might be fun but the destination is almost certainly clear - Soulution and Boulder separates for M6. As for the best streamer/dac for them, that's another matter. |
I agree with henry201. I don't feel Jay's journey with the M6's has been a struggle or he has had to wrestle with them. Jay clearly stated when he first brought the M6 in that he was going to start at the bottom with budget amps and work his way up....he's done just that. The fact that the Pass 60.8's sounded so good with the M6's (according to Jay), seems like it's been fairly easy to accommodate the M6's. To my ears the Antileon / M6 is the best sound he has had in his room so far....Of course everyone has their own preference. |
If you go back to videos I posted on p 302, the Alexx had more sparkle in upper midrange/HF than the M6. Even though the Alexx had the advantage of Boulder, I believe the Alexx had much more of these features than would be explained by the superior Boulder electronics. I believe that Jay had tweaked the Alexx with all those resistors to get more brilliance from it. The M6 doesn't have those adjustments. The trouble with reviews is that it is not specified how the Alexx is adjusted with the resistors. For some adjustments, the Alexx may have less brilliance, and for other adjustments the Alexx would have more brilliance. Jay can probably answer about the differences, which he has not mentioned in the past. A clue to this is when he said that the M6 and M3 in the past didn't impress at first, but were appreciated later for their more subtle sound. Comparing the M6 to the Franco Serblin stand speakers, I found the FS had more brilliance and focus although there was a bad discontinuity between its midrange/HF brilliance and bad bass bloating. So in contrast to the prevailing perceptions here, I feel that the M6 needs neutral and brilliant electronics to enhance its neutrality and bring out more life, instead of toning it down with mellow tubes/Pass, etc. Probably the best value would be the Boulder 1160 which is powerful enough. |
Meet the Gryphon Essence https://youtu.be/JHFzceFCj5M Who said 50 watts isn’t enough? I’m erasing all doubts here that not all watts are created equal. If this amp can drive my m6 the way you are hearing it now, DO NOT think for one second it can’t drive yours. I’m almost positive most of you don’t have a speaker that presents the overall load that this speaker is presenting to the essence. I kept this hidden to prove a point. I wanted to let you all hear rather than me telling you that this thing is killer with only 50 watts. |
Decent recording of guitar up to 47 seconds. Then the voice comes in--either veiled or she is mumbling her words throughout the song. The soft background vocals are even more murky. Please, no mellow euphonic electronics on this song. This recording needs brilliant electronics like Boulder, Soulution. For this song at your playback levels, you are using only a few watts on peaks and a fraction of 1 watt for most of it, so 50 watts is not the issue. Let's hear the best natural recording you played a few years ago on a smaller Wilson, as I remember--"Perhaps Love" or something like that. |
viber: i am no DJ nor am i taking requests here. You get a free meal here and make the best assessment with what i give you. It doesn’t cost you a penny. I am doing all the heavy lifting here. But i will challenge you, take a video of your Bryston and your entire system and post it on youtube and then i will play any amount of songs you want me to. i am basically telling you i am willing to become your DJ if you post videos of your rig, but dont tell me you tried and you couldnt get a video that represents what you are hearing in person. I want you to find out on your own how challenging it is to get accurate videos. |
I believe I slightly prefer the Gryphon sound over the Boulder sound. The Gryphon’s sound more tonally dense and focused where the Boulder sound more spacious and not quite as focused. My perception might change being in your room live but that’s what I hear over YouTube. Wow....that last Essence Sara K video was amazing. Hard to believe that is the entry level Gryphon amp. How does the sound change when you insert the Pandora into that mix? |
With Pandora you will find more warmth and an analog feeling. You still lose the ultra resolution that you get by going dac direct but you now have more "usable" volume and can crank it louder without the sound punishing you. With dac direct, you are walking a thin line with regards to volume level. You can’t quite blast the music because youll be overwhelmed by the resolution and projection of the high frequency. The pandora solves this at louder volume levels. Trade offs are present when doing dac direct. It’s all about your listening habits and this is what will determine which way to go: preamp or no preamp. Make no mistake that going with a preamp will always result in greater grip and control over the speakers. The m6 are telling me: you want pure resolution? Go dac direct but don’t crank it up too loud. You want to hear more soundstage and deeper lower registers as well as more volume? Use the preamp. |
To shift gears a little, I am posting a preview of a virtual upcoming live concert at my music club, The BohemiansNYC. Listen to this 1 min video and enter into the real world of the sound of live, unamplified and unprocessed music. It is also a YouTube video, so even the mediocre YT medium is able to show the obvious worlds of difference. I hope some will be interested to hear the whole two virtual concerts on their website, clicking on YT on Mon May 3 and June 7 at 7:30 PM. The music is esoteric classical, but often great striking live sound is enough to inspire appreciation and learning new things. https://youtu.be/qVngRnQvoo0 Next, few people here will admit that Steve's video of the GTA speaker I posted on p 302, shows that none of these dynamic speakers even driven with megabucks of components, can compete with the GTA's liveness and clarity. Steve is not a professional recording engineer, and I watched him casually make several GTA videos using the same microphone as Jay into his phone. My own unique electrostatic main speaker and tweeter go beyond even the GTA for liveness and clarity, although I can admit my system's deficiency in loud dynamics and bass. The GTA video is good enough evidence to show that it comes much closer than any dynamic speaker to the live video I just posted. That said, I do thank Jay for his efforts at presenting his work and presenting Mike's valuable experience in describing sonic differences in electronics, which is all useful objective information to have, regardless of tastes. If Jay can find great natural recordings of music he likes, it will more informatively demonstrate the differences he is learning about. |
So on the video you posted, at the 29 & 30 second mark, he makes my ears hurt when he screams. Are you saying that magico is actually closer to the real thing then ? Because i hear this exact shouty feeling when a singer hits their notes hard through the magico while other speakers just ended up mellowing out these particular passages. I’d love to know what is truth or a lie about sound reproduction. I don’t believe for one second that ALL music sounds smooth and yes some speakers smooth out everything and yet we think of this as a damn good sound reproduction. |
Jay, Thanks for listening and making valid observations. At 29-30 seconds, the singer's peak is at 300 Hz, with harmonic overtones much higher. This recording was made in a small room that I am not familiar with. But in the regular hall where they usually present concerts, I have heard male and female singers, piano and other instruments. In one concert I was sitting in the 1st row about 6 feet away from a female singer. Even I was shocked at the power of her voice, unamplified. These classical music singers have incredible training like you do as a top rated bodybuilder. On peaks, it was probably 100-110 dB at fundamentals of 600-1000 Hz, and much higher freq overtones. The ear is most sensitive in the midrange, esp 3000 Hz. If you thought the male singer was screaming, then YOU would have screamed and covered your ears if your heard that female singer! Her tonality was actually even dryer than I anticipated, which confirmed my understanding of what sonic truth is. More revealing audio components are neutral and dry. In a room with carpets and soft wood walls, the tone is warmer and sweeter due to HF absorption, but recordings with close microphones are not made in such rooms, so to tell the truth about the live sound, the audio system should be neutral and on the dry side. This illustrates that live music is often loud and unpleasant. But it is the truth, and if you want to hear all the complexity of the music, it is desirable to have a truthful, revealing system. My solution to this problem is to keep listening levels modest. For most of my favorite small scale music, live levels are average 60-70 dB with rare peaks to 90 dB, so my electrostatic speakers maximally reveal the truth at live, natural levels. My system does well at 80-90 dB, which accommodates a lot of large scale symphonic music. Even the music you have presented, like Iron Hand, Keith don't go, and the latest Sara K video of the guitar and female voice, have modest SPL's in the low 80's, although for Keith don't go I enjoy listening at home at 70 dB whereas you like 82 dB. But I hate smoothed over hifi which robs me of the full enjoyment of the intricacies of my music. I have tried many euphonic amps, and I can't get the exhilarating sparkle I know is present in the music by cranking the system to loud levels. Euphonic mud won't develop life by pushing the SPL, just as a blurry photo will actually be worse if you magnify it. Today's high rez TV screens let you maximally enjoy your videos, even from a small screen, much better than a large screen of outdated low rez. |
Funny video with left/right reversed. It appears like you are in the UK, driving from the right seat with the opposite traffic on your right side. You had the Chord DAVE before. What were its sonic characteristics--tonality/resolution--compared to DCS Vivaldi or Rossini? I half agree on the subject of better speakers and associated components. With the GTA, even the earlier version of a few years ago, this was the only time I liked any system with Pass electronics. The neutrality of the whole was due to the speaker, so even if the Pass was softening it, the overall effect was neutral with high resolution. But Steve and I agreed that the slightest change in components was more easily heard with the GTA than with his previous speakers. So if someone found his new $40K speaker to be more revealing than the old $20K speaker, he can still enjoy his present components and doesn't have to junk them. When he upgrades the components, they will make greater difference and enjoyment with the new speaker. |
Jay, I don't comment much, just listen and read your blog. Thanks for all your hard work. Your a lucky guy! Anyway, I had to mention to you, after reading your comment on the synergy between the M6 and Pass Labs. In October 2016, Magico introduced the M3 at the Tokyo International Audio Show and paired it with the Pass Labs XA200.8 monoblock amplifiers. They obviously thought it was good synergy at that time. |
ok so the video that will release in about 10 minutes will have the Essence stereo versus pass labs 350.8. Just as an Fyi, you might have to use your volume to match the loudness of both because i think i might have used a little more gain on one of the presentations. If you find one a tad louder, please adjust your volume accordingly. Last but not least, please use headphones or your system... |
Gryphon wins hands down in my opinion. To me pass had a glare to it. Gryphon more real to me. Better tonal correctness as best I can tell without being there. Better finesse with detail, draws me in more. Better low level detail as well. Both do sound good but my preference is the Gryphon in this setup |
