My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Well there's the rub; Clear, revealing, dynamic vs sweet. My Mola Mola suite is clear and resolving; with the right music (I only stream) it is amazing. With the wrong music it can be a bit much. You know this when you either want to turn it up, or turn it down. I am fortunate to have two systems, and I am waiting on what i think will be revealing, dynamic, tingly and never fatiguing. It gets no love here, touted as being boutique with low resale value. Well hopefully I will not want to sell it! I should get my Audionet Pre1 G2 and the Mono Amps next week...can't wait. It will be sweet! BTW, my Mola Mola mates well with my Revel Salon2 Ultima 2's. My Audionet will pair with my venerable 802N's...Ken |
I am in the dynamic and revealing camp favoring details and resolution. many of the musical instruments do NOT sound inherently and naturally sweet at all. and i think making it sound sweet for non fatiguing reasons goes against the grain of the music that the artist created . similarly for the warmth and lushness which are not natural at all. thats why it's very important for an amplifier to be neutral. |
goodsource, Totally agree. As a violinist, I have played over 1000 instruments made from 1600 to the present, at prices from hundreds to millions of bucks. They range from sweet/romantic to tight/cold. I appreciate the varied tone colors of natural, unamplified brass and woodwind instruments also. But I believe, like you, that hifi is meant to be a passive conduit of the varied colors of the recorded music, revealing them to the max. The hifi should not be colored itself, which then superimposes the artificial electronic color on top of the real natural color, creating a mess. Congratulations on ordering the Sim 860 V2, which I believe is the most truthful amp heard here. I look forward to your findings. |
WC, I will add to others’ appreciation that the latest video is the finest I have heard of that song, Keith Don’t Go. But I heard clarity, not sweetness. The stand turned the rolled off Dag 250 into a high clarity Sim. The guitar and voice were both startlingly clear, but there was no harshness. It was just REAL, the unvarnished truth, smoothness without sweetness. From now on, all amp shootouts should be done WITH the stand. Further listening will show whether the stand is truly responsible for the great clarity, to rule out the possibility that what you heard was just a lucky moment when the power line quality was superb. This has happened to me many times, when I realized that my power quality was superb only for an hour or so. Also, you don’t need to wait for the Merrill Christine preamp. Just use the stand, the Dag preamp, and A/B the Gryphon and Merrill 118. (Oops, you need a 2nd stand. Worth the money!) The fireworks will be even greater than with the Dag 250 amp. As an aside, I met someone today whose car was damaged by a nearby car that burned up from blasting the car stereo too much. I saw the pictures of both cars, horrible. Boom boom bass blowup. |
WC, artesania seem to have have good full size and adjustable racks where you can get a full rack instead of getting a separate amp stand.that would save you money and also give a consistent level playing field for all your components in the signal chain. their pricing is not as crazy or high as critical mass systems or silent running audio or HRS rack plus isolation base combo |
| Post removed |
Since he already has a rating for his personal rating of the amp, I’m not sure what makes the most sense. I don’t see rewarding an amp for being more sweet than neutral. I can see taking away from one that’s clinical or analytical. I always thought the idea was to be as neutral as possible and pas through what the recording has to give. Sweetness is a coloration, as are warm and cold. I need to go back and listen to all the categories again. To me I’d have detail, stage, and there’s different parts of stage. Width, height, front to back, and then in between. Also where does it place you, the listener in that stage. Where is the stage in relation to the speakers. Should that be all one category? Should it be Seperated into parts so we can see where it is for each of those? I think the goal for most builders is neutral, not sweet. If you have a category for how nuetral it is , how do you rate that? Perfect 10 for prefect nuetral? Deducted for sweeter or drier? I’d rather hear sweet than dry, so then deduct twice the points the more into dry you go? If there’s a rating for his personal rating on the amp, then maybe the rest of the ratings should be based more on standards most think of in the industry in relation to the sweet question? I’m sure there’s many things I havnt thought of that could be brought up, those are just some that come to mind as I was thinking. |
How do you know what neutral or warm is . What is your reference that you base all of this off of ? I am afraid we all have an idea, but we all hear differently, and what are we using as a reference for what any of these categories really are. I am afraid there really isn’t one ... Is there ? This is helpful ... but we can’t pick out which frequencies we are hearing more or less of with our ears ....can we ? https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/images/6/63/Main_chart.jpg |
Momentum is dialed in to sound clear but it is leaning towards the sweet side of things. Yes it has resolution, air, detail, etc. It is by no means in the soulution, gryphon, block audio camp. Some manufacturers attempt to add punch to sweet amps but it almost never results in the same type of punch. For example, Dartzeel is extremely sweet and beautiful sounding but what’s the biggest knock ? Bass....that said, im sure if you own their $160k monos then bass isn’t an issue. This is no different than the Dan agostino relentless Monos which have the sweetness, power, dynamics and anything else you wish for , but this is why they are $250k. Point im trying to make is that often times amplifiers that execute sweetness, dynamics, slam, attack etc in perfect fashion are huge money; These usually are their top end models: Constellation Hercules Relentless Dartzeel 468 |
WC, Again, I will state that the price of a component often has little correlation with sound quality. Expensive Dag will likely still have a sweet emphasis, rather than neutral. That is the Dag sound preference, aka house sound. You found this out with expensive Pass--it still had the sweet Pass house sound. For neutrality/clarity, we both agree that the Sim is better than the Dag 250 for a much lower price. The Relentless Dag has heavier construction and more and better parts, but still probably has the same Dag sweet sound. And the name, Relentless is merely clever marketing that can be used to suck in wealthy 'files that don't know truthful natural sound. You cannot have ultimate resolution/detail/clarity and sweetness at the same time. This is true of audio systems and the sounds of anything in the real world. Real sounds vary in the balance of sweetness/softness and sharp hardness. Buzzsaws and golf club hits are hard but not at all sweet. Bouncing a tennis ball on a blanket is soft but not hard. Drumheads have varied materials and can be tuned from soft to tight. Whatever the design, they are not sweet and tight simultaneously. Violinists who prefer softer sounds use gut strings, and other violinists who prefer tighter, brilliant sounds use synthetic or steel strings. Take your pick of one or the other. Some amps like Classe are detailed and also sweet, but there is a compromise--moderate detail with moderate sweetness, but not ultimate detail nor super-sweetness. |
I find this amusing to say the least. Viber states above: "The stand turned the rolled off Dag 250 into a high clarity Sim. The guitar and voice were both startlingly clear, but there was no harshness. It was just REAL, the unvarnished truth, smoothness without sweetness. From now on, all amp shootouts should be done WITH the stand." Now if you go back to when WCSS acquired the Dag 400's he put them on the floor WITHOUT a Stand. I told him he needed a stand to get the best performance. At that time VIBER Chimed in to say the Stand wouldn't make any noticeable difference to the sound and it would have the same tonal character. Now he is doing a complete 360 and saying EVERYTHING needs a Stand. LOL Totally clueless. |
Only if you have inefficient speakers. A Dart 108 sounds better than all of these behemoths in this thread on a 90db+/8ohm one. Bass isn't an issue and it's far more transparent with real decay. I say this as someone who currently has YG speakers and has tried a half dozen amps so far. None of them beat my old Dart (or probably even my ARC Ref 75SE which is a simple tube design). You have to make a decision on which speaker/amp path you prefer. The path for good sounding high powered SS is very slim. |
WC, do you think, that Gryphon Essence Stereo with its 2 x 50W @ 8 Ω, 2 x 100W @ 4 Ω, 2 x 190W @ 2 Ω specs would be enough to drive DAW? This is the latest addition to the Gryphon range of Class A amps and is highly recommended to me by the people I kind of trust. My room is not big, and I do not listen at high spl levels. |
Greyhound, what you say is true. It’s subjective, and coming up with objective criteria can be difficult. The idea is to have the discussion, maybe even with just yourself, and try to come up with an answer that makes sense. I sure can’t say I have all the right answers, though I might have plenty of answers, lol. Riaa, what’s wrong with Bieber chnagi g his mind on the subject. If you had asked me two months ago, I would have said cables didn’t matter. I’ve seen wcs priorities change and his journey has progressed. If you remain open, I’m sure many of us will change our ideas, or tastes, over the years. Let’s not pigeon hole someone and back them aganst the wall because they used to like x. Or didn’t like x. If he switches back again on the subject in a few weeks, then I’d question his sincerity |
This whole thread has gotten me into so much trouble, hehe. I had my arm twisted ( not really, but thank you for helping me make the plunge) to buy the Soulution 700 series stereo amp, and now after reading about synergy etc here and a recommendation after asking a knowledge person, I’ve added the 720 preamp also. I see one of their Dacs for sale too, but not sure it can compete with the Vivaldi. |
viber6, When listening to live instruments - let’s take a violin for example, since that is what you play - is it possible that distance/perspective can play a role (not be the absolute reason) in sweet vs clarity. For example, if I’m close up to a violin when it is being played, I would think that clarity would be in spades. When I back off and get further back, then it’s possible that as distance and echoes, etc come into play, the same performance might sound sweeter and less about clarity. If that’s true, then maybe that can happen in an audio system, where some components/cables deliver a presentation that is in your face or front row, etc, and other components/cables deliver middle row presentations or even further back. WC - I’m curious as to how amps that are in the clarity camp will sound on that same amp stand. Will it be too much, or, can it be even more clear, without adding edge, brightness,etc.? Dave |
Hi Dave I’m not sure yet and unfortunately I can’t put the gryphon on it because it can fall over. I will need to evaluate future amps to see how they behave. One thing I want to publicly admit to is that I need swallow my words and thoughts when it comes to stands: THEY MAKE A DIFFERENCE and even more at this level. Does this mean your denon receiver will sound better on it ? Probably but I think this only makes sense when the rest of your equipment justifies it. Don’t go buying a stand of this caliber instead of buying quality cables first. In my opinion, the stand and isolation devices need to be done towards the end. I am learning and I am here admitting that my entire perspective has changed. I noticed that some people here are somewhat hard-headed and refuse to accept change or see possibilities. The point here is also to learn and change your thought process when it comes to audio just like I am changing mine. Don’t think for a second that I haven’t bitten my tongue a few times because I have but I am fully capable of admitting to it and move forward while keeping an open mind. Sweet/smooth amps - AWESOME Dynamic/ neutral amps - AWESOME Let’s stop saying that if an amp is sweet that it sucks because it sugar coats things or if an amp is neutral that it sucks too because it sounds too sterile and cold. Those are simply personal opinions -nothing else. |
I am using Starsound Technologies Sistrum Apprentice stands under my speakers . I have been for a couple 3 years now. http://starsoundtechnologies.com/ComponentPlatformsDetail.php?SP-SA-102-3-9 I think they are fairly inexpensive compared to some , and they work very well IMO Also using Starsound Sonoran Desert Plateau speaker cables |
Now that your mind is opening and expanding.......now would be a great time to try some audiofool fuses. I suggest Audio Magic best beeswax hand made thang ($240 list), the Orange fuse from Synergistic ($160 list), and the hand made Audio horizons fuse ($135 list). Here is a link to a review of the Benchmark amp and if you read towards the bottom he tries both the Audio Horizon fuses and the Orange. You can probably get some of these on trial. Jerry at Audio Magic is real easy to deal with. Call him and the Audio Horizon guy....speak directly to the makers. http://www.10audio.com/benchmark_ahb2.htm You will be saying the same thing that you said about stands.......however, you can change all the fuses in all your equipment for less than $1000. Just one in your amp or preamp would still blow your mind. |
Speaking of isolation ie. (stands, racks and footers), I use two brands of isolation. I use Critical Mass (shelf and Center Stage footers) and also Stillpoints (Ultra 6’s). In my time experimenting with both I have learned they each bring a different tone to the system. The Critical Mass devices are warmer and more holographic vs the Stillpoints Ultra 6’s being more sterile sounding...cooler. Both produce amazing results. Both bring out details and information you never knew was there, they just do it differently.... tonally speaking. I will in the future add more CM isolation and subtract the Stillpoints. I think with my Simaudio 870a amp, YG Carmel2 speakers and all Odin1 cables the Critical Mass pieces help balance out the tonality of my system. It all comes down to system matching and tuning. The last video with the DAG gear was (on my crappy computer speakers) the best sound I have heard since the OP started his YouTube channel. It sounded so much better this last time than the first time he played the DAG gear. I’m guessing it was the combination of the ’sweet’ DAG preamp and amp tuned or offset by Nordost Odin1 cables and the Artesania amp stand.....I’m wondering if you might get similar results with an AR ref10 / Simaudio 860a v2 / Cardas Clear Beyond or Kubala Sosna Emotion cables? I understand the cost differences between the two systems...I’m thinking more of tuning a system to a more neutral presentation. |
That's great info on the Center Stage vs Stillpoints - I've always wondered about this comparison. I have Starsound audio points and Stillpoints Ultras & Minis, and I rather than climbing the Stillpoints ladder, I was thinking of going with the Center Stage footers. I also agree about the last video and with WC's points above. Dave |
thezaks, Excellent points for discussion. YES, distance matters. Violins and other instruments with HF content will sound mellower and sweeter at a greater distance because short wavelengths of HF are preferentially absorbed at the greater distance. A concertgoer who always sits in the 10th row will think that the violin sounds mellow and sweet, but if he moves to the 1st row it sounds brighter with more HF content, allowing for the fact that it is louder. How to resolve this issue? Most recordings are made with close microphone placement, roughly equivalent to the 1st row. So to make valid live vs recorded comparisons, you must sit in the 1st row. The accurate, truthful system will sound like the 1st row, but the sweet rolled off system will sound like the 10th row. People may prefer the 10th row, but that means they do not prefer accuracy. I am not qualified to answer the question about how different amps will sound on a given stand. Amps have different materials, weight, construction, so how they interact with a known stand is only answerable by listening tests. My guess is that since the Artesania stand increases the clarity/focus of the Dag 250 amp, it will do the same for other amps. Without the stand, if the Sim has more clarity than the Dag, I bet the Sim with the stand will have still more clarity. It won't have any artificial or hyped-up clarity. If you study classical music printed music (scores), there is so much complex information that needs to be revealed, so there is never too much clarity. Think of it like this--suppose the Sim without the stand sounds like the 1st row, then the Sim with the stand will sound like you are on stage even closer to the musicians. The Dag without the stand is like the 5th row, and with the stand like the 2nd row. |
The foundation of a system is the most important factor before you can judge any component, speaker, or room. If these factors are not executed to the extreme level, you’ll spend a lifetime of misjudging gear. Took me about 30 years to fully understand this concept. This is the only way to unleash the true soul of the music, anything else is just different flavors. Everything matters equally cables(power cables, grounding cables, speaker wires, interconnects, digital cables, usb cables), amp stands, fuses, AC conditioning, dedicated ground bars, grounding conditioner, room acoustics. All these need to be address if your goal is true music realism. I have misjudge many components in the past labeling them as sterile, sweet, analytical. Maximizing the foundation will truly reveal the true voicing of each component. Most important from maximizing your foundation, is that the music timing and raw lifelike dynamics are closer to live music. No component or speaker can achieve this by itself. The words below are from another devotee of getting the foundation as close to perfect. “I am not interested in being right. I am interested in being spiritually touched. I want to see Jacky Cheung standing there in his quiet dignity. I want to hear the last wisp of Milstein’s bow. I want to experience Carnegie Hall arrayed before me with Belafonte singing and joking with audiences sixty years ago. That is why I always go for crazy length to reach uncharted territory. I don’t have the time to explain the justifications of pursuing this route. This topic is for someone else. We live in a sea of noise, now more than ever and tomorrow more than today. This is the march of “technological progress”. The proliferation of noise intensifies silently on all fronts to a degree no one can easily comprehend intuitively and logically. The founding principle of AE is to annihilate (1) ground noise, (2) AC noise, (3) mechanical vibration noise, (4) electromagnetic noise, and (5) room noise. Without tackling them by specialised solutions, there is simply no way to restore music faithfully to justify the value of any hi end system. And now after a decade, I need to deal with a new enemy that I wasn’t aware of - stray noise. Stray noise refer to any noise that is not on any direct signal path. They may be radiated from one component to another, generated by the signal/power pathways, and came from radio waves, parasitic noise on power lines, and transformers of light fixtures etc. Generally speaking, stray noises are of very high frequency and inaudible. But one knows immediately of its existence when they are absorbed unveiling new information. The design goal of the Annapurna board is to absorb and shunt radiated noises surrounding the electronics by means of a jewellery-grade external brass plate connected to an internal SEGP (Super Enhanced Ground Plane). It acts as an antenna to absorb immense amount of stray noises. The remainder of stray noises can then be shunted to Tripoint Troy NG series (There is a ground post at the back of the Annapurna board). But please take note that Annapurna by Pranawire is NOT designed to remove ground noises. Simultaneously the Annapurna board is absorbing mechanical vibrational energy by the top brass plate with proprietary damping materials underneath. The Annapurna board weighs 123 pounds. The IMPACT The Annapurna is tactically chosen to be used under the Robert Koda K15EX preamp. The preamplifier is at the intersection of everything. I hypothesise this is where stray noise is the most severe. The listening notes below always refer to the total cumulative impact of everything. Last item that goes into a system always catches the most attention. I am well aware of the context. The entire system breathes like never before. The sound appears from nowhere and grows to a particular shape and volume with its own constantly evolving colors, highlights and shadows. It grows to its largest natural intensity, and then gradually recedes to disappear. The orchestra behaves as a bursting fountain with ever changing colors and shapes that fill three dimensional space. When the space between musicians is clarified to this extent, the sense of ensemble is deeply reinforced. I could feel the power of the interactions amongst the musicians co-mingling with audiences. From the softest pillow-like pianissimo to intensely musical swells, each note caresses the ears. Violins nest at the top of the orchestra with woodwinds and horns layered perfectly below. Vocal interjections are startling. Vocal counterpoint floats in three dimensions. The timpani lends its weight in its precise location on the stage. It is part of a whole and distinct at the same time. The sense of intimacy, pace, rhythm, texture, unfettered dynamics and emotion is unlike anything previously experienced in spite of full assault on all types of noises at Divin Lab. This is a new category of product that qualifies as a “cutting edge game changer” akin to Dalby Pirueta Record Weight, Tripoint Elite NG and SRA Virginia.1 amp stand. My credibility does not allow me to speak this lightly.” |
For those of you who need a long review of the 860a v2 read this: https://www.the-ear.net/review-hardware/moon-860a-v2-power-amplifier If you are about getting to the point without having to read 3,000 words, watch my videos or read this thread :) |
Is anybody concerned about the low impedance limitations of the Simaudio Moon 888M (within the context of possible limitations due to a 20 amp outlet)? https://www.stereophile.com/content/moon-simaudio-888-monoblock-power-amplifier-measurements |
@hedwigs. I don’t think anyone is remotely concerned about those amps for 2 reasons: 1. They are over 100k so I doubt anyone who follows my thread owns them 2. Often times manufacturers send prototypes to be reviewed so once something like what you pointed out is on a review, I highly doubt the manufacturer won’t do anything about it to correct it since it can impact their sales. I have to assume they fix the issue before they mass produce but I am sure that isn’t always the the case. Simaudio has been solid gear for me so I wouldn't be too concerned. Now, other brands like soulution, hegel , etc...I've heard that isn't the case. |
WC, Thanks for posting the Sim review. "This Moon produces a revelation in transparency without seeming to add any song and dance of its own." That's my point. The reviewer gives examples of how there are many colors revealed, depending on the music. It is not desirable to add arbitrary electronic colorations like sweetness--just appreciate the unvarnished truth of the music itself, in its NATURAL colors. Still, If you love the music on certain recordings but hate the recorded sound, then you could EQ according to the recording. All of your processed recordings are EQ'd by the engineers anyway, so you could undo their choices and make your own. I don't use any preamp, except for the small gain and volume control on my Rane ME 60 EQ. As mrdecibel confirms, because he sold me his tweaked Rane, the Rane electronics are competitive in transparency with most preamps. But the opportunity to adjust the sound to correct flaws in recordings, speakers and rooms is an overwhelming advantage that vastly outweighs the slight colorations of an EQ's electronics. If you like the recording, you could keep the EQ in the flat setting, have a great preamp as the Rane, and then fully enjoy the superiority of a Sim type amp. Even your idol, Dag man has an EQ feature in his HD preamp, and the Momentum Integrated amp that you found useful 1-2 years ago. Since you love the HD preamp, experiment with its EQ feature. The major deficiency of the review is that there are no specific comparisons with other amps in his system. Stereophile reviews don't have this deficiency. But all published reviews are tainted by bias according to which manufacturer is paying for ads. You have the advantage of not having bias from whoever could fund you, so please do your verbal comparisons and present video A/B's as well. Don't get rid of amps or anything until you have had the opportunity to present your findings. Thanks. |
Speedbump6, Annapurna is a new isolation platform made by PranaWire which acts as a ground sink. The platform itself could be connected to ground. Here is a link. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/review-of-the-pranawire-annapurna-collector-platform-at-audio... If you only address AC conditioner/power cables only, you’ll never be able to get rid of high frequency noise in the midrange. |
I’m not understanding what they’re doing with the grounding part. I have and will be expanding on, synergistic research cables and will be using their active grounding block. But grounding an isolation stand to itself, I’m. It understanding why, what the problem is that it’s supposed to be solving. Assuming there’s no conductivity between the component and the shelf, where is this electrical single coming from that needs to be grounded, and if you’re already using a ground block with another product, that would resolve the issue of there was conductivity. Also a grounding block surrounded by noise isolation g materials? How is the noise affecting what a grounding block does? Not trying to be negative, just trying to understand what the problem is it’s resolving, and why what is doing resolves it. |
Passive components have intrinsic non linearities due to their architecture and choice of materials. This is further exacerbated by their relationship with boards and other devices. As frequency rises electromagnetic coupling increases and causes further non linearities to occur. All devices behave as antennas at high frequencies and are subject to exacerbated parasitic effects. 1 GHz a 1/100 wavelength is 3mm, small enough to induce value drift in small components. So the environment of high frequency noise that all hifi components swim in cause them to operate in a non-linear fashion at the component and board levels. The Annapurna Collector/Platform functions as a more powerful antenna, drawing noise away from delicate devices allowing them to operate within their intended value range while simultaneously functioning as a very effective sink for mechanical vibrations. Don,t like active grounding solutions like Telos, Synergistic Active grounding block. To my ears they sound artificial. |
