Vivaldi dac only ?
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
How much time will you spend to optimise filter selection on each DAC? I’d suspect changing a filter will be more dramatic than changing between DACs. And of course without optimized power cords, footers and interconnects you are hearing a fraction of what either DAC can offer. Such is the folly of “shoot outs” - it takes many months of living with a component to gets its true measure. |
Bolder 2010 vs dcs Vivaldi (preamp war ) Boulder 2010 sent the Vivaldi packing right away. I should give the boulder paid time off because there has been zero competition here for it when it comes to preamplification. It murdered the xp30 and it made the Vivaldi realize that it is meant to be used as source and not to try and do a man’s job when it comes to preamplification. I wish I had local audiophiles that could bring something serious to fight this boulder. Stay tuned. Tomorrow's shootout will bring many interesting things ...= |
I think that WCSS’s decision to use the stock power cords is valid. If a product requires a bunch of tweaks to sound its best, it’s either hobbled as a design or you end up evaluating the tweaks along with the product. Settle on a superior device and then slowly start changing some things like cords and isolation devices. A shootout is no place to introduce extraneous variables. |
WC, In what specific ways is the Boulder preamp superior to the Vivaldi? You can still do the bypass test using the Vivaldi + Boulder + Pass XS versus Vivaldi + Pass X. There should be no difference if the Boulder is perfectly transparent. Or does the Boulder introduce a slight coloration that you like? |
viber, Just a guess, but it seems clear from WC’s assessment that it is superior because, wait for it ........ because it SOUNDS BETTER! Yes, the sound quality is dramatically better -- "zero competition" according to WC, full stop. No theory, no wishful thinking, no hopeful recharacterizations, just a straight up A/B test listening to them side by side -- which one sounds better? Doesn’t sound like it was close. When competitions are competitive, WC will typically describe the aspects in more detail, but here it sounds like it was the Globetrotters vs the Generals, men against boys. Please don’t post in a few pages that the Vivaldi was competitive with the Boulder per WC as you tried to do with the Merrill but then were publicly smacked down by WC for the mischaracterization. He is making his determinations extra clear, ("zero competition") it seems, for your benefit so that you are not confused again. It’s about sound quality, period. Not about particular nuances of sound quality that only you seem to feel are important above all else. Audiophiles just want the equipment that SOUNDS THE BEST, and that’s what WC tells us. Because he’s heard them and done the comparison, not because of theory or relying on reviews or other people’s impressions. WC, could you compare the Boulder pre to the Ref 10, which for a long time (80 pages or so of this thread I think, maybe over half of it) was your preferred and favorite pre? I know you never had them at the same time, but whatever you can offer would be interesting as far as how they compare, thx |
Well we do have 168 pages of WC’s views on his interpretations of sound and what characteristics top sounding equipment exhibit. By now we should all know what he values, and if it was "zero competition" as he related, probably safe to assume Boulder whomped in all/most. Like I said, when it’s competitive he will generally list pros and cons. Seems it wasn’t here. |
The saddest part of this thread...for the last 1.5 years...is the same person asking a zillion questions and has absolutely ZERO desire to purchase any of the products described. I fail to understand the point of the constant and irritating interrogation. These poor guys at Merrill, GTA think they have this guy on the line and he's actually going to shell out for their gear? I feel bad for them and all their wasted time and efforts. If your product costs more than a few G's it aint gonna happen. |
I think it is really that he would like to "change" WC and everyone else so that they view the universe of audio as he does. By continually repeating (at least 50 times I’m sure) the characteristics that he considers most important and why he is right and everyone else is wrong, he is either trying to convert or I guess defending himself. Anyway, I hold no animus and don’t wish to start an argument, just wish to keep the thread on track which means WC comparing gear and then relating the results, without others providing annoying mischaracterizations or rationalizations about why WC must be wrong. Nobody has to agree with WC or even value the same things he does. But it’s his thread and if you like other things than he does, then filter his conclusions appropriately -- just please don’t keep banging the rest of us over the head with your myopic views. We get it, V likes clarity. That’s fine. Telling us once was enough. |
viber6, Putting aside the riff-raff of the last few posts.... I suspect a component, like the Vivaldi, can perform differently for different functions. WC had mentioned that it was not supposed to perform as well as a preamp and that it performs much better when used as a source. So, while the question about Boulder introducing a slight coloration is a possibility, I believe the difference might be more on the side of the Vivaldi acting as source+preamp vs source only. You mentioned that there should be no difference, but this is where I would disagree, based upon what I just mentioned. Dave |
With as much as Viber6 posts, filtering those posts can become confusing because you need the context of said posts. That's why many have asked that Viber6 post less and stop with the summing up and telling us all "how" it should sound. WC has heard it in his system and he is telling us how it sounds to him. This is the topic and purpose of this very interesting long-running thread. Let's keep it there. |
For those interested in how and why a preamp may best the dCS Vivaldi direct (which is certainly my experience) I refer you to this thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/running-dcs-vivladi-direct and now on to the real comparison ... |
Thanks for the link. I will be reading it later on. Tonight the shootout will take place and it will be as follows: Esoteric k1 vs Vivaldi (both stand alone) Final touch audio USB (REVIEW HERE ) https://www.audiostream.com/content/lampizator-pacific-balanced-dac-review MacBook laptop Stock powercords on both dacs and into the shunyata Denali 6000t Boulder 2010 with transparent reference powercord (testing this ) connected into dedicated 30a outlet (udioquest nrg outlet) Wireworld platinum 7 xlr from dacs to preamp Wireworld platinum 8 xlr from pre to amps Nordost odin 1 speaker cables Nordost odin 1 pcs on xs300s monos and plugged into dedicated 20a outlets on each amp All the equipment has been playing non-stop since yesterday 11am so when we start tonight at 8ish it will be about 30 hours of constant music in order to have everything cooking Part 2 of the shootout : Aurender w30 will replace the laptop and we will continue to use USB. |
I agree but most reviews also use a laptop if you read carefully. That said , I want to do a baseline shootout and this is exactly what this will be. From here we will go up to a clock or upsampler etc next year. I want to enjoy the ride from the bottom. This is the only way to gauge if something was better or not. |
WC, I agree with mayorwest. DCS sells the Vivaldi at least in part in components to allow their customers to upgrade it over time without forking out full cash all at once for base unit, masterclock, upsampler and whatever other standard options that they sell. If you are going to compare two ultra-high end pieces and then declare which one sounds better, then I think it is your obligation as a reviewer to utilize the piece in it's best configuration... or at the very least, doing it both ways. That the Esoteric does not have these options or does not emphasize them is not DCS' fault. DCS thinks reclocking and upsampling are critical for SOTA, Esoteric doesn't. If you think that is somehow "unfair" then find yourself a Vivalvdi One that has everything already built in. Since many of you are car enthusiasts (I am not) I going to attempt an anology. Comparing 1 expensive sports car that has a big and a small option for engines against another sports car that only has one size engine... if you are comparing the two, my guess is that you would use the big one and let them slug it out in their best edition. If you were comparing a turntable with an optional external power supply (i.e. Linn) with a turntable that utilizes vacuum hold down and an air bearing (are these still things??? lol) you would not compare base models, you would compare loaded options, or at least as part of your "shoot out". These "options" are not "tweaks" as one contributor suggested but fundamental to the designs. Additionally, the fact that high end manufacturers include a crap powercable, maybe even stock USB or ethernet cable and possibly a set of "Radio Shak" rca interconnects (I sure hope these are no longer included but I know the other 3 were included in the new server I just bought!) in no way insinuates that this is the way the manufacturer expects their equipment to be used, or the power cable would be permanently attached and not an IEC connection. Manufacturers recognize that their customers are likely to change these to suit the rest of their system so they rarely bother including anything above base level cabling. Sure there can be something learned from auditioning them in their worst possible light. But I think it is your responsibility if you are going to be passing judgements comparing SOTA equipment to spend more time putting them in their best possible light. |
kren0006, What does "sound better" mean? To a lover of warm/laid back sound, it means something completely different than to a lover of clarity. WC himself has stated that he may be moving toward a clarity-oriented sound, rather than his former desire for euphonic oceans as with the ARC ref 10. From the context of his comments about the neutrality of the Boulder preamp sound, I suspect that he finds its detail/clarity to be better than the Vivaldi, although only WC can clarify what he really means. Another example of his new preference is the fact that he thought the Transparent wiring is too warm and that he prefers the clarity of the Nordost Odin. So I suggest that people describe things in specific more objective terms rather than subjective, value laden terms like "better" and so on. |
Here are my comments after taking the best seat: (using tidal and just flac files ) Dcs presents things a little more closer to you as if you moved up a couple of seats. It can get a tad " in your face" Esoteric has a feeling of sounding very even throughout but it has a little less bottom end. If I were to choose one right this second based on what I’ve heard, I’d go with esoteric. Before I forget , those filters on the dcs are useless. I can't hear a damn difference on those f1- f6 filters. By the way we were using stock powercords but now we are going to try cardas clear audio xl. Stay tuned ! |
Shootout just ended. In short, the general feeling was that the esoteric k1 simply had more synergy with my current system. The entire time was spent trying to help the dcs catch up to the esoteric k1. I'm not going to lie to anyone , I expected the vivaldi to easily hand the esoteric its ass. I thought it would just outperform it since it's a stand alone dac and it doesn't have a CD player but I gotta keep it real. Look, I don't have a horse in this race and I own both dacs outright. I can keep either one but the truth is that the more impressive machine with my current set up is the esoteric k1. I present facts and the fact here is if you have money to spend on only one component, the dcs Vivaldi might not be the better buy over the the esoteric k1. It just doesn't really trump it or even gets to distance itself. If you have 15-20k to burn on a dac, the esoteric k1 steals the show and you even have a SACD PLAYER. Another thing, the filters on the dcs are not much help and I read the entire manual. Tried cables, pushing filters , different outlets and yes it got much better than where we started and never enough to best the esoteric. It just simply didn't do that. That said, I'll educate myself a little more on it but I want to be clear on ONE THING: if you are a vivaldi owner and are going to come here and disagree with me then it better be because you have owned the esoteric grandioso k1. If you have zero experience with this esoteric then you have zero idea what you are talking about. Lots of dcs owners out there and also lots of esoteric owners too so I want to be sure both camps understand that with my current system the esoteric seems to be better but I am not done yet with the dcs. I will see what tricks i can come up with to improve its performance without having to spend 10,000 dollars. Anyhow I will post the differences tomorrow. |
Esoteric knows how to do digital. That’s for sure. I get the technology trickledown in the parent-co Teac nt-505, a budget $2k streamer/dac that is really good (dual mono, fully balanced, dual torroidal power supplies, full mqa, AKM4497, etc). There’s a budget recommendation for those inclined - now back to regular programming |
@whitecamaross Have you tried any non-over sampling R2R or Discrete R2R Ladder Dacs like MSB I personally seem to favor those over Delta Sigma Dacs or oversampling interpolating DACs. But I must say that have not been near the price of the DACs you have tried. This is an interesting read, though https://www.psaudio.com/article/my-kingdom-for-a-dac/ . RE: Last night's DAC shootout You know some cables take several hours to settle in after being moved or taken out or put in.They can sound forward or edgy at first... just a thought. |
Mr Snyder, Esoteric DOES have the ability to use different clocks (Cybershaft, Mutec GMBH Ref 10 etc) so I have no idea where your getting your info that the Esoteric cant be upgraded. WCSS Stock K-1 is nowhere close to reaching its full potential. I applaud him for trying different cables etc BUT in many cases he ditches gear that he hasn't done enough research on. The REF 10 (And any other Tube gear) he simply used the generic tubes the thing came with....always a BIG mistake. K-1 will be the same thing...or any other Esoteric Spinner for that matter. A different clock will bring a night/day difference. Plenty of info on this subject on AUDIO AFICIONADO website under the Esoteric Topic |
V, Your question: what does “sound better” mean? would be a solid question on any other thread, but on this 168 page thread, by now if you don’t know what WC’s (that’s what we’re talking about - his conclusions) sound quality parameters are, then you haven’t been paying attention. He has listed them hundreds of times - any time generally he does a detailed review or comparison; just search his posts and you’ll see. “Zero competition,” “Sent packing” and “man’s job” are among strongest descriptions he’s ever used so obviously it “sounded better” across all of his parameters or he’d have enumerated the distinctions as he is wont to do when competitive. Finally, I totally agree that many people value different sound characteristics. Indeed, that is a main thesis of your detractors: that no such thing as one size fits all. |
@riaa. I agree with what you said above. I didn’t take the time to roll tubes with arc and yes a clock is something that I almost bought for the esoteric the other day. Anyhow, I did hear the esoteric with the w20 aurender last weekend and it was insane how much better it was. As far as the dcs, sure I’ll play with it a little more to see if it can redeem itself but as of right now it has its bags packed. I’m just super shocked to be honest. Esoteric just really made me have a whole new level of respect for it. Granted, this is all about system synergy but I just expected to hear a different outcome. Over the next few days I’ll let the dcs keep playing music and place it on a different shelf , try a nordost odin 1 pc on it etc. I’m going to work with what I’ve got in here. Oh one last thing , I did try the dcs upsampler when I got the dcs dac and it certainly made it better although the network connection was waaaaaay inferior to USB. Even the dealer who installed it here was shocked that the Ethernet connection sounded muffled and obscure in comparison to USB but he heard it with his own ears in here and he agreed with me. I am going to be running a couple of errands today And then I’ll be back to put my comparisons from last night’s shootout. PS. We tried the dcs again as a preamp using the cardas xl PC and it sounded better than the first time I tried it BUT the boulder just really really exposes it. See, if I didn't have the boulder 2010 then I wouldn't know any better but having it here makes it so easy to hear the kinks from other preamps. |
Quick update Tonight we will do round 2 of this shootout by using the aurender w20. Will this be what the dcs needs to distance itself ? Could it be that the dcs is just " the facts " and it is giving me what it is receiving from the laptop even though the esoteric is doing better magic with the laptop.? I have scratched my head about it and it could be that the esoteric is indeed better at cleaning up a piss poor source than dcs is but what will happen if I use an excellent server on both? |
riaa, I agree with every one of your points and I was aware that Esoteric had external clocking as an option. I didn't think that they emphasized this in the way that DCS does. I have not listened to the Esoteric other than as part of a couple systems at Axpona so I was careful not to comment at all on how I thought it would sound or performed. I also like the direction WC is taking things today. Just restating my main point, I think it is important to review equipment in their best light, especially if you are comparing them at their least. Perhaps a better DCS shootout candidate for this type of comparison (single box vs. single box) would be the less expensive Bartok or the all-out Vivaldi One. Also, I couldn't agree more with you than about your affinity for the Ref 10. My dream system would be Vivaldi One, ARC Ref 10, Ref 160 Monos, Odin and any number of Sonus Faber, Wilson, YG, Magico... speakers (depending on my mood for the day)! |
Esoteric will go against dcs again tonight. We will try some Kimber xlr interconnects (top model) and a Wireworld USB cable to see if it’s just a matter of cable matching. I’m excited to see what the outcome will be tonight. I’m also a little disappointed that dcs sells you one tire at a time for your car . They force you to buy all 4 tires or else your car will ride like you’re off-roading. That said this will serve its purpose for some of you going forward. You either buy at least 2 chassis from dcs or go elsewhere. There’s an opportunity for me to bring the esoteric clock as well as the dcs clock. That would be one HUGE test because if the esoteric still bests the dcs with both using their respective clocks then I’d probably be an esoteric man for a long long time. Yes I want to try msb but I’m not going to do so unless I locate a piece that makes sense for me. If I went to buy a msb dac for what dealers are asking for it and It ended up not besting my esoteric then think of the huge loss id take to sell that msb. It’s a pretty expensive trial that I’m not willing to endure. I need to be wise on what to buy and where or else I'd be sleeping outside with the dog in no time. |
For MSB @whitecamaross , there is a fully loaded Premier for sale: https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649571138-msb-premier-dac-upgraded-psu/ It has everything one can possibly add to the Premier, powerbase and Femto clock upgrade. Not affiliated with the seller. It would be my dream DAC if I could afford it right now. I have the much cheaper Discrete |
