The door won't hit the speakers at all when open.
I am going to be looking into isolation devices for sure and a music server. Aurender could be it but I'll need to wait for that move. I am not bringing the Merrill back because it is no longer available to me. Man those Wilson alexx are really starting to invade my dreams. I am almost afraid to go listen to them because I know myself when I hear something I am truly impressed by. |
For your components, I'm hearing that folks are trading out their Stillpoints for the Center Stage footers from Critical Mass Systems. I have not yet tried them myself, although I'm hoping to try them some time in 2020.
Dave
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i just got off the phone with Wilson and they pretty much said that they have tried isolation devices under their speakers and that they really did not see a marked improvement over their spikes because their cabinets are already heavy, well built and rigid so the only job needed is for them to stay planted on the floor so they dont shift position by the moving drivers. He said, "if you have to burn money, sure go ahead and call me back, but i dont think it will really make a big change"
i also had a conversation about the DAW vs Alexia 1 (i did not tell him what i own) and he said that the Daw is a nice product with a great amount of technology. It was primarily designed for smallish rooms where there is not much room behind the speakers, but it is in no way shape or form a superior to an Alexia 1 with the right room and electronics. The Alexia 1 is only bested by the Alexia 2 (and those above the ladder of course). He said the Alexia wont sound ANY different (other than the bass) to a Sasha if it is in a small room, but if you throw them both into a midsize room, that is where the Alexia will distance itself from the DAW.
Interesting comments. This would mean that if i was still in my living room i should have bought the DAW, but in my dedicated room the DAW would have never scaled as good as the Alexia 1. |
I knew the Sasha DAW would rule in a normal size room. |
Yes. It is easier to make it sound good in normal rooms. |
Traduction. It’s a pain in the a.. to make the Alexia 1 sound good in most room conditions... |
Yes, especially for those that live in shoeboxes but if you have the space , then it's game over.
They need the room and electronics. It's no different than having a hot girlfriend; they wanna go shopping and spend your money. Thats the price you gotta pay. |
Is your room big enough for alexx? |
Yes it is big enough.
Anyhow, I want you guys to give me your opinion on the following:
I have a chance to get the aurender w20 (non se) to connect to my esoteric k1 or I can just get a dcs Vivaldi and forget about the w20 and sell my esoteric which means I won't have a CD player of this caliber. What would you all do ? Go with dcs Vivaldi which streams directly from the internet or just get the w20 aurender and connect it to the esoteric ?
Alright let me hear educated opinions! |
W20. Keep the K1 cause it gives you greater flexibility.
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The trustworthy Kal Rubinson from Stereophile just came out with his review of the $2500 Benchmark LA4 preamp, finding it the most transparent he has ever heard. It passes his straight wire test. If you can overlook Benchmark's contempt for audiophile cables vs professional cables, a great shootout would be between the Boulder and Benchmark preamps. Too bad you can't include Merrill at this time. Deal with Music Direct's 60 day free trial for the Benchmark.
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That’s tough. The Vivaldi is astonishingly good. I just heard it on the Alexia series 2 with the Boulder amp and preamp and it was incredible. I’ve got the Rossini, so maybe I’m partial, but I’d vote the Vivaldi. |
I brought up the Benchmark LA4 about 40 pages ago on this thread when it was released. It was deemed non-audiophile by some of the crowd here.
I plan on buying it along with the AHB2 amp for my second system. |
Not that the Benchmark is bad - I’m sure it’s excellent - but what’s the point of recommending it here? Do you really expect he’ll replace the Boulder, Pass, or Audio Research with it, or are you saying it to get a rise out of people?
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Re dCS Vivaldi -- as the owner of a (now 5 box with a 10Mhz clock) Vivaldi stack I would never give up on a CD transport source - I personally don't do any streaming but the real strength to me of a Vivaldi stack is what it pulls out of CDs. There's a magic in the good old CD that a well tuned dCS stack can create that for me (with a multi thousand disc CD collection) is something I'd never want to give up.
So yes the Vivaldi DAC is good of course but if you're buying into the dCS eco system then do so in the expectation that you're getting in whole hog --- and also be prepared to lay out almost the same $$ again in supporting interconnects and footers (see my system description for discussion on this topic)
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Mayoradamwest,
WC is following a prudent budget nowadays. If the Benchmark LA4 equals the transparency of the Boulder preamp, that is a wonderful opportunity so he can spend money on better speakers, etc. Even you said the Boulder 1160 doesn't blow away your McIntosh amp, although it is superior. It is worth spending more money for better things, but the Benchmark ought to be considered.
BTW, does the 1160 have similar warm tonal characteristics as the McIntosh, or is it a different animal entirely, being neutral? |
viber6,I'm all for finding value and I appreciate your effort to offer an idea for a less expensive preamp - you have good intent. However, the source of your suggestion is Kal. From what I've seen, Kal has not reviewed expensive preamps - at least not in the price ranges of the preamps that WC is playing with. His context is primarily with surround pre-pros and lower priced preamps. Nothing wrong with that, but when he mentions that the Benchmark is the most transparent he has heard, then one must consider the context of his experience.
Dave
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I agree that preamps and dacs don’t need to be very expensive anymore to give near or sota results. The Christine pre and Benchmark pre are probably good examples. My own experience showed this in me acquiring a 4.5 k $ CAD demo Mac pre with included dac module that bested a 6 k$ USD dac and separate preamp.
Amps and specially speakers, thats another story.
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Viber6 and techno-dude -
WC and many of us reading have auditioned or owned and have our opinions on low cost, mid price and high cost components.
If you think that WC is leaving money on the table let him. You won't change his mind and we won't change yours.
Each time you chime in with statements that lower cost this or lower cost that should be the next move you slow down the momentum for the majority who enjoy this thread.
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WC, folkfreak,
Firstly, let me say that I am completely envious of folkfreak's dcs rig! I am not going to say he is incorrect about the transport vs. NAS/streaming option. I don't know how the best transport vs the best streamer shakes out. I went from transport to a dedicated iMac but was always disappointed by this sound so then added the Aurender (which crushed the iMac). I never had a desire to go back to individual discs (which I still keep).
What I will say is that the Conductor app for controlling Aurender is a distant second from a Roon based system. For this reason, I would steer clear of Aurender. I believe the Innuos Statement (which utilizes a Roon platform) would be a better choice for this reason, although I'm not sure how the reclocking features compare. I have compared N100 with Innuous Zenith SE and Aurender was crushed. I believe jonaiken--who regularly posts here--replaced an SE with an Innuous Statement into a Vivaldi stack so he may be able to shed good light on this. I heard through the grapevine that he found the statement crushed the SE...
My dealer who has both dcs and Aurender (I currently have a basic N100H) recommends the following: NAS (supplemented by streaming) into Roon Nucleus + to feed dcs. In the past couple years, their sales of Aurender have fallen to the floor in favor of NAS/Nucleus. At Axpona, most of the rooms were using Roon, and though many room identification summaries said they had Aurender, the only place I definitely remember an Aurender being utilized was... in the Aurender room!
My dealer likes the Innuous platform and have auditioned it extensively but they worry that it just doesn't fit with where industry is going. I am in the process of transferring my entire 2 TB collection into a new NAS, the Nucleus + is on order and my next planned step is for a dcs Bartok, as the Vivaldi is outside of my realistic budget.
In the "where should I invest the money first.." question: Aurender vs. dcs... to me I would absolutely go dcs and worry about how to "feed" it later! I am doing it "out of order" primarily because of backup concerns (Aurender is a complete pain in the ass to backup) and my preference for Roon over Conductor. Although if I notice a drop off in sound quality, I will keep the Aurender until I get the Bartok.
*******
Finally, thanks to clarification note to tjassoc who correctly pointed out that Wilson does not include biwiring in their speaker designs. I had commented on the importance of matching jumpers to speaker cable in biwired systems and incorrectly attributed a general conversation about this importance to include the Wilsons. Clearly from Wilson's design decisions, they don't like mismatched jumpers as well! lol |
So i appreciate the ideas and great intentions here. yes, preamps can be really expensive and there are a ton of options at cheaper prices that can bring one hell of an experience. For instance, the Ref6 and the Christine are amazing preamps under 10k (used market price) that can give a lot of bang for the buck.
That said, when you talk boulder 2010, ref10, vac statement, etc you are talking about a whole new level of performance that needs to be matched with the same quality of components. If you buy a preamp of this caliber and the rest of your components are subpar, you are pretty much just putting lipstick on a pig. It won't be pretty no matter how much lipstick you put on it.
I might end up going the DCS route... the stars are aligning right now so this will be an interesting shootout. Esoteric k1 vs dcs vivaldi? i should start charging you all for all this first hand look at shootouts that most magazines dont ever do. :)
will the dcs vivaldi beat esoteric k1???? |
I still don’t agree that someone needs to pay the big $ to get sota preamp or dac performance. Most of audiophiles preaching that route would fail the blind test and have their jaw dropped.
Sure, WC ´s journey through prestigious preamps is very interesting and I would absolutely not want him to go otherwise. It’s very cool to read about the top stuff outhere.
But a thread is also for discussing options, all options. That is the beauty of this hobby. |
@whitecamaross I am going to test out your statement on preamps. I am getting the Luxman c900u and Luxman m900u combo. I will be also
getting the Benchmark LA4 preamp and Benchmark AHB2 amp. I was trying to avoid the expensive c900u but comments on this thread and maybe a half dozen other people have told me the c900u is the best with the m900u. I will see this for myself.
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@yyzsantabarbara
Awesome. I promise you that you will love the preamp..I tried different preamps with those amps and nothing sounded as good as.c900u |
@whitecamaross - I look forward to hearing the results of your shootout between dCS’ Vivaldi DAC, which I own, and the Esoteric K1 DAC. I am currently running the Innuos Statement via Nordost‘s V2 USB cable through the dCS Vivaldi Upsampler/DAC combo, which produces superb sound. @psynder149 - the Innuos Statement provides a significant improvement over the Innuos ZENith MkII SE, providing greater detail and dynamics, with a larger and more 3-dimensional soundstage, with superb timbral accuracy. Musicians space and complex passages are better defined which allows one to follow them clearly. The sound is very palatable.
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I have heard Luxman M600A at home, so I have some idea of the excellent c900u + m900u. These are examples of somewhat warm sound from readings of users and my own experience. For clarity and neutrality, the Benchmark AHB2 is nearly the equal of my Bryston 2.5B SST2 which is far superior to any other Bryston I have heard and several expensive big name amps that I won't mention. So I know the Benchmark "sound." It should be competitive with the Boulder for clarity and neutrality. (Too bad the AHB2 shut down with my inefficient electrostatics).
WC, you have seen plenty of examples where lots of money doesn't buy the best. From your own reports here, the ARC ref 10 is cloudy compared to the cheaper ref 6. The not too expensive Merrill Christine beats the ref 6 for clarity and is competitive with the Boulder, but too bad you can't put that to the test now. Expensive preamps don't have to be paired with expensive amps of the same brand or other brands. Don't bother with a super expensive Pass preamp--your Boulder will probably still kill it, and the latest Boulder is probably even better. The reason is that as you described, the Pass is congested compared to the clear water transparency of the Boulder. Boulder's philosophy is neutrality/transparency but Pass goes for euphony even if the XS300 may be less euphonic.
Techno_dude is absolutely correct.
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I never said the Merrill is competitive with the boulder .... |
The major flaw with all preamps starts with the manner in which the volume control attenuates the volume.
This is in all instances is effectuated by the use of resistors- which in turn have the same deleterious effect as the use of crossovers in speakers. They in essence rob the music of transparency and produce as what was referred to in this discussion as making it sound cloudy or in essence lacking clarity and a sense of organic purity.
At Sound Insight we do not succumb to the norm and forego profit margins in an effort to achieve the best sound possible for our valued customers.
This credo has embodied itself in many years of research and development of a revolutionary new preamp - this new preamp is the creation of a remarkable engineer whose company is CM Audio.
specifically, without divulging the proprietary design- I can tell you that this pre does not use conventional resistors- but rather light dependent volume attenuation developed by Tortuga Audio. Additionally, there are 2 quad sets of Shuguang Black Treasure 6SN7’s and 2 NOS Bendix 5852 tube rectifiers.
There are also 4 independent power transformers housed in its separate chassis
and a military spec linear power supply for the OLED screen.
We are using this pre with the Pass amps on the GT Audioworks speakers with amazing results in Massapequa, NY.
Will try to post pics.
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Cool preamp, but it has to be PRESTIGIOUS and EXPENSIVE to be worthy of WC ´s consideration...
Just kidding. |
Like all Tube amps of any kind you have no idea what you have until you start tube rolling. Unfortunately WCSS didnt slap in a couple of Tung Sol 6550 Black Plates in his REF 10 which according to anybody and everybody that has done this its an entirely different beast. NOBODY says the REF 6 is better than the 10...its more forward and aggressive. Its like comparing a Klipsch to a Harbeth. Viber showing his total ignorance again as always and twisting everything like a vengeful woman with ulterior motives.
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We can put the ref6 to rest because it has been officially discontinued as of last week. The ref6se is to be released in the next few months and it's said to start scratching the ref10s performance. Retail will be 17k. |
Ouch, the definitive Merrill smackdown to V. Not competitive with Boulder. Glad we got that "clarified."
I hope the next wishful recharacterization of WC’s assessments from V’s point of view is not that Paradigm is competitive with Wilson, but let’s see ...
Am curious about the Benchmark Luxman shootout yy mentions. Never a bad thing to look at inexpensive stuff and put it to the test. But keep in perspective and don't exaggerate results like some. If it's a great component at it's price point, like Merrill and lower cost ARC according to WC, that's awesome, full stop. Problem comes when wishful recharacterization ... |
@whitecamaross what would you pay for a "used" Christine? I've been contemplating one that's listed on Agon.
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I can't quite speak about what I'd pay for an item unfortunately. |
Zaks made a valid point that Kal Robinson doesn't comment on very expensive alternatives, so the Benchmark LA4 could just be better than other preamps up to a certain price point. However, Kal's crucial finding is that in his bypass test, there was no difference in the sound. That makes the LA4 the perfect preamp if your goal is transparency and not another flavor of the month. WC could put the Boulder to a similar test. If it also shows no difference whether in or out of the chain, then it too is a perfectly transparent preamp. Then the LA4 and Boulder are equivalent, although there might be tiny differences due to impedance matching. The other slight variable in your ability to do this bypass test is precise volume matching of unity gain in the active preamps vs no preamp.
In principle, complicated, expensive circuitry can only cause problems, so the simplest, shortest signal path should produce the ideal of perfect transparency and clarity. The simplest signal path of the LA4 is a possible reason why Kal found other preamps to alter the signal and decrease the purity of the music.
Of course, if your goal is different--colored, flavor of the month sound, you can do all the tube rolling you want, etc. Then you can disregard everything I have said.
WC, judging from your comments about the Merrill Christine and your Boulder having similar neutral/transparent characteristics, I meant that they are competitive. Can you remember how the Christine sounded vs Boulder? One clue is that viber7 in his review of the Merrill 118 plus Christine, using his Chord DAVE, found that the Christine softened the sound compared to using the DAVE directly into the 118. So perhaps you can compare your source directly into your Pass XS300 versus with the Boulder in the chain. If you don't have a volume control, choose a piece of music which provides a comfortable SPL without the Boulder, and then re-insert the Boulder, adjusting its gain to yield the same volume. If there is no difference, then the Boulder is the winner of all the preamps you've tried. At worst, the Benchmark LA4 may be extremely close to the Boulder, but we don't know without trying.
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We are the Borg....resistance is futile! |
Wilson uses Transparent wiring internally in their speakers WC, you might want to try the top of the line transparent Opus I believe if you have a chance.
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Nah lol. I heard them and they are too warm for my taste. I like nordost odin. As a matter of fact I had someone bring some transparent speaker cables and kimber and the odin 1 sent them home quite easily. |
Kal Rubinson is not a high end tweaker....he is the Stereophile low end mostly surround sound guy. I would not trust his "straight wire" bypass test as the "truth". Years ago I thought my 3 head Sony Cassette Deck made "perfect" copies. What I can hear today with my very tweaky system is light years beyond then. I am sure the Benchmark Preamp is very, very good from all the reviews....however, I have not seen a single review or comment of it versus the "serious" stuff. If you can get one on trial and burn it in for 30 days and A/B versus the $30K preamps it would tell us something.....and you could also do a straight wire bypass test on all preamps under test. Until then, I doubt whitecamaross or other well healed audiophiles here will pay it much attention. |
ricevs,
Agree totally. Too bad many people who like to spend big money prefer to scowl at me rather than try what we both suggest, although I look forward to what yyzsantabarbara has to say with his comparison of Luxman with Benchmark.
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There are many of us who can afford to spend the money whitecamaross does on a preamp but don't due to the fact it is not necessary when one is looking for just transparency . The Benchmark is definitely on my radar . |
It would be very nice if all the supposition some folks feel so inclined to provide on an all to often basis, would be refrained from. Let the thread return to WC and his adventure. |
I have never had a preamp at the level of my boulder. However , maybe it’s the synergy as a whole that I am loving. I will try to use the dcs Vivaldi as a preamp and connect it to my pass amps .what if it blows me away ? Although I have heard from dealers that the Vivaldi isn’t great as a preamp but rather as a source. However , you all know I will do my own experiments and will draw my own conclusions but yes I will admit that if the Vivaldi comes here and creates better SYNERGY for me when used as a preamp then I'll be shocked. |
There are more than a few people who have used stillpoints ultra,5 & 6,s under Wilson speakers and report a substantial improvement. Something worth drawing your own conclusion on WC vs what Wilson saids. For source i would try the Center Stage footers ( Steve Williams )but be warned there is a crazy break in period from what I read. Check out WhatsBestForum where Steve is a moderator along with the distributor they even have their own forum.
WhatsBestForum is a great source for info from the majority of guys have at least your level of system and beyond.
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Thank you for the info. I'll take a look. |
Waiting to hear the budget Stillpoint alternative from Mr. Knowitall....Probably something like Take 2 Triscuit Crackers and Crazy Glue them together. Do this 4 times and place them under your Wilsons in each corner. This will cost you about $1.50...slightly less than the magnificent Zip Cord I use. |
WC,
Thanks for your clarification that you found the Boulder preamp more transparent than the Christine. Even if the DCS Vivaldi volume control lacks a little transparency (thanks to faxer's post that volume control is a critical problem in a preamp), it is what it is and will be a constant, as you try the DCS direct into your Pass XS and compare it to the DCS plus Boulder into the Pass XS. People talk about synergy when combining a ruthless component with a forgiving one, for example. But I believe if the Boulder is truly transparent, its benefit is not due to synergy, but the fact that it lets the other components reveal themselves better.
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maplegrovemusic,
Agree, except "just transparency" is a big feat that few components accomplish. Colored, flavor of the month sound is much more prevalent and comes at all price levels. Much fewer women look great in minimal clothing vs many ordinary looking women who need fancy outfits with jewelry to look decent.
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RIAA; In this thread they'll need to be Ritz crackers!!
Don |
Dcs Vivaldi is in the house and up and running. Tomorrow I will do the shootout between the k1 and Vivaldi. I have my initial impressions already and I can say that the law of diminishing returns between both is huge. For now, I don’t feel like the dcs is really giving me more synergy than the esoteric. Part of the shootout will be a blind folded shootout so that nobody is biased because I have people coming from both camps. Will keep you all posted ! |
