My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
About 15 years ago I built a listening room within my garage. I did a lot of reading prior to determining the dimensions. I ended up with aprox. 16x22 although I angled the long wall so I could somewhat reduce parallel surfaces. Being a contractor I did most of the work myself. I used 2 layers of 5/8" drywall glued to studs and glued drywall to drywall. Used an acoustic drop-down ceiling and thick carpet on the cement floor. Of course I had an electrician run (4) dedicated 20a #10 wire lines for my components.
Good and Bad..... The good was I could blast away day and night and not bother other family members. I spent months setting speakers up in different ways, on different walls etc... The Bad was the room was completely sealed with no openings (like hallways, other rooms or open areas). At low listening levels the sound was great but at high listening levels the room kind of pressurized and had a closed in feeling/sound. I kept the room for 4-5 years then tore it down and moved back into the house to a room that was larger and that had hallways and open rooms adjoining the main room (for excess energy to escape/breathe).
My takeaway with this experiment is that if you are going to build a closed-in room within a garage you better be prepared to consult with an acoustician and spend some money on acoustic treatment to absorb excess energy. Looking at folkfreaks room (small and closed-in) but heavily treated (by a professional) is the way to get the best sound from that kind of room.
This is just my own personal experience....others may vary.
I think viber is on to something with his statement, based on reading, for years, the kinds of distortions that are presented to us through our gear. I am not equipped, nor knowledgeable enough to discuss these distortions, but even here, on the "Gon, and readings from Nelson Pass, Dan D'agastino, Peter Walker, and many others, the human ear does like certain distortions ( 2nd or 3rd harmonics, whatever, I am clueless ), but in a discussion such as this, I believe there is some truth to it. Again, not to take up space on WCs thread, but maybe, someone would like to start a thread elsewhere here on the "Gon, about this topic. The Tech Talk section would be the place, I suppose. And keep in mind, viber is repeating the words of a studio mastering engineer, as I have no doubt of the validity of this statement. Geoff, always a pleasure to listen to your contributions. Let's do this thing, yeah ? Enjoy ! MrD.
viber, I responded to you, via email. Geoff, I started a thread under Tech Talk, title being : Distortions that the human ear likes. Are there any ? Let's see where it goes, as I can always have the thread deleted, if it goes nowhere.
ron17, I have encountered that exact thing in several room designs I was involved with. The best rooms were those that involved an individual with much more knowledge than myself with room construction and acoustical properties techniques, of course, for the purpose of audio and home theater use. I have always said, the room, the room, the room ( location, location, location, lol ). Enjoy ! MrD.
Ok so you guys are now going the opposite way from what I was told at first about my crappy room. Lol. Now that I’m planning on a separate space, people are now sounding like I might actually be in a worse position than what I’m currently in. Make up your minds ! :)
I see how you could load up and pressurize the room. That would make it uncomfortable, for sure. It's definitely something to think about when building a garage room.
My soundproof room in the garage is for wood and metal work.
Got a near-field system in there.
Definitely not trying to discourage you from building a dedicated listening room. Just saying it's not a slam dunk. A general contractor can easily build a room within a room but for it to sound good at listening levels of 80-90db is another thing altogether. Listening at low levels and at near field will have less room interaction but I know you like to crank it up.....I don't know folkfreak but he'd be the guy I would talk to if I wanted to do it right.
I'm a firm believer in a dedicated room with room treatment when possible. My room was open on th right side and I had a contractor build a wall with French doors to close it in. It was actually my wife's idea to prevent my children and their friends from accidentally running into my speakers. I've added GIK Acoustics for a modest cost and I love the coziness of my room. This hobby can be difficult and getting a room to sound great can be as difficult as finding the right components.I believe there are several acoustic companies that provide preconstruction advice and products.
WC, That really is the point--we can't make up our minds, mainly due to humility about the unpredictable effects of "objective" acoustical measurements. Nobody is an absolute authority on this, although I want to hear from gtaphile, a professional in this area. Haven't you been to many dealers who spent a lot of money in a well-meaning attempt to have the customer best hear the products in an ideal home environment? You and I have not liked the system in many such setups. Nobody has an ideal setup. At least if you make a mistake in buying a certain component, you can sell it and move on. It is harder to undo a big installation. (And don't go to a doctor who says, "OK I'll remove your gallbladder. If this doesn't give you relief, I'll put it back"). LOL.
Also, for your Neos or other large speakers, you could use a much bigger room than 16x22 to get full natural space and openness. More like 25x 35-40, with a high ceiling, preferably a cathedral type with up sloping from 10 feet opening up to 15 or more. Steve's room for his GT speakers has a very high ceiling with a room about 17x35. But your very wide and tall Neos require more space than that. I wouldn't make a big investment in the relatively small 16x22 space. Some not too expensive homes have main living rooms that are like what I have described, so you could move to your dream home. In that much larger space, the investment in acoustical design could pay off with much larger benefits.
200 K worth of audio gear with a room that is not sufficiently large enough, and / or acoustically excellent, is like putting 93 octane in a Volkswagen Beetle ( non turbo ) .....I have always lived in a home with at least one excellent sound room, as quality audio reproduction was always an important aspect of my life. WC, looks like the garage thing will be happening.
Unfortunately, in SOUTH FLORIDA, as in Miami Beach, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, big rooms for dedicated sound aren’t a thing. Those that are lucky enough to have a huge room for just music tend to have names likes Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Celine Dion, Tiger Woods, etc. Average joes like myself can’t afford to buy a huge home with enough real state to have a huge room for just music. South Florida isn’t Texas where you can move in the middle of nowhere and buy acres of land for nothing and land your own plane too. There are cities where you simply can’t have all this room that some of you have. New York City - mostly apartments Miami- small property for a lot of $ Los Angeles, San Francisco’s - probably the same thing. Big cities just don’t bless you with extra space for you just to do your thing with. NOBODY in south Florida looks for a house with a dedicated media room. That doesn’t exist here. People pay more attention to a garage, or ocean view or a backyard. Those are the things that are most important here for most buyers. Sure I can sell off all my gear and buy a bigger home and then buy AirPods so I can jam out to bob marley in the extra dedicated room.
Anyone or Everyone , Please try out these songs "Sway A Little" by Johnny A .It is off of the "Get Inside" Album I like almost any of his stuff off of the Get Inside or Sometime Tuesday Morning album. It is all about the tone. Also try "Like Anyone Else"-- Derek Trucks---Joyful Noise album
If the move is to isolate the listening room from the rest of the house so that others will not hear the system then that it is worthwhile. If it's just for improved listening then you can likely demonstrate a high percentage of the improvement by installing absorption and diffusion panels in your existing room temporarily and ensuring that you have the listening position/speaker position/room boundary ratios optimized in the treated room. Once you hear the results you will be able to assess if you need to start fresh. If you do then all of those panels are reusable in the garage or another room.
bigddesign3, I hear you. SOTA headphones can provide a lot of enjoyment, especially for those without the money and ideal room. My AKG 1000 headphones are unique for their open (literally) quality where the ear speakers are some distance from your head. This gives you an open, spacious feeling which is unlike the cramped feeling from most headphones. The tonal character is revealing and very smooth. You can angle the ear speakers away from your head to adjust the tonal balance to your liking. They are not in current production, but you can probably get them used at a nice price.
WC, I hear you. In NJ, my gf lives in a nice community not far from NYC and close to Princeton. Her house is worth about $600K, and it has a room with a nice high cathedral ceiling and another family room with standard ceiling but a large dimension of 18x35. The little compact stereo sounds much better in that room than the same compact stereo in her bedroom. Her neighbor's house is a little larger with a fantastic larger room with very high ceiling. It is a shame that they are not interested in music and have the room stuffed with furniture and decorative items. Perhaps one day, you will build a home with 1 large room dedicated to your system, and skimp on the rest of the rooms to save money. One of my deceased musical friends did just that. We used to play music there, and there was enough space for a large piano, so the sound was great for everyone.
grey9hound Johnny A- Two Wheel Horse really jumps out of your speakers when cranked.Jimi Jam is pretty nice too.I'd like to have one of his Signature Gibson Guitars someday!
Listen guys. I take nothing away from Johnny A, especially with the playing on Jimi Jam, but, if you like this musical style, Eric Johnson is the man. I still like his 1990 " Ah Via Musicom ". Enjoy ! MrD.
Eric Johnson is certainly one of the finest. Chet Atkins called him the best guitar player in the world (back in the 90s). Ah Via Musicom is a real treat for those who love a player who can do BOTH notes and rhythm/melody. for me, EJ puts all the note-masters to shame. Again, IMO of course.
With all due respect, and others have said it better than I have or can, your input is dominating and disrupting to this thread. It is disrespectful to the OP, who has spent inordinate time and $$ to provide the community with amazing and concise feedback. Instead of telling us about the live experience, clarity, whatever YOU think is most important, etc., restrain yourself a bit and add when you have something of merit to share. Your constant posting surely has worn out its welcome. There are a number of posts on Page 136 and 137 that share similar views, so please try to see if from the other side instead of just defending yourself.
@axememan @grey9hound @mrdecibel@pokey77 I just watched Johnny A on youtube playing Jimi Jam. I have seen EJ in concert twice in the past 6 months. Johnny A looks to be a very good guitar player. EJ is a guitar player that other guitar players lineup to watch. He did five legit encores when I saw him at the House of Blues because the crowd kept cheering for him to play more. He is a fantastically well-rounded guitar player.
WC, Theoretically you are right, but the postings about guitar players are of interest to many people here, so it is hard to keep discussions private, just addressed to 1 person. When possible, and the topic is of limited interest, you're right that private is the way to go.
Ok,You are correct..I apologize..how about Johnny A and Eric Johnson thru the Lux 900U's and Neos?Sorry again,couldn't resist.Resistance is Futile.Wc I do thank you for this most awesome thread!!
I agree about the music here, but honestly, good electric guitar sounds great on good hifi gear, and you, wc, did ask not long ago, for recommendations on good music to listen to, and judge with. I still think, wc, that you are not in that " state ", of just " sitting ", and " relaxing ", to good music, without thinking what is next to try, to improve things. A very unsettling time for an audiophile / music listener. I might be over stepping my bounds here, but my honesty is part of me. But, I will take my music talk to the music thread, and, I apologize. Remember, Audiogon is all about " music reproduction ". Always, and Enjoy ! MrD.
WC just auditioned a Sim Audio 860A...agree with your assessment even though I have not heard the other candidates in that price category.
Also auditioning quality speaker cables and the combination now extends the width of the image so much so that I will be revisiting speaker placement and possibly room treatments to account for it.
WC, you should email Mark Coles of Sabon Audio about getting in on his Sablon Audio demo box. He’s got cables he sends around for demos. You only pay the cost to ship the cables back to him or to the next person in line to demo.
Sorry, I didn't mean to break a thread rule. I don't read this thread religiously. I simply saw a string of posts last night on the "recent thread summary" that interested me. I responded to them. Please accept my apology. Regards Al
@whitecamaross Sorry man. I did not mean to start a debate on guitarists. I try to respect the thread and you, but the music suggestions , were obviously something that I thought stood out , and would be a good "System Test" .The reason for posting was for everyone who reads the thread,to check it out . I only ever bring up something "off topic" , when i think it will benefit everyone . Most,but not all, was stuff that took me many many years of listening , to find , and "cherry pick" out the songs that I thought stood,above many . The Stevie Ray Vaughan "Tin Pan Alley" was one that I had sent to you, but until Mr. Decibel mentioned it as one to try , you were unaware of it , even though you actually had it . I know that I had physically mailed you some music cds and asked you to listen and let me know your thoughts, unfortunately, I never heard back from you about any of it , privately or publicly.Many times i and others have asked you a question or have posted something for you to respond to ,and it just gets ...Ignored.
The big problem with a lot of the songs i mentioned , is that they are not in the database, in Tidal...and so many "Audiophile types " are stuck on TIDAL. Tidal sucks when it come to content , IMO. Sometimes you just have to go to Youtube , but then again, Therein lies the problem. Most "audiophile" folks do not have the ability to listen to Youtube on their system, because they have an ""audiophile" Pre-amp, which only takes analog inputs and is 2 channel. I think everyone needs the ability to play something from a computer based system. In today’s world if you don’t have this capability , then you are missing out... on a lot, IMO. I use a McIntosh MX150. It is good in its own right. It does not compete with a most 2 Channel Pre-amp setups .. I admit this . I have a PC that runs JRiver Media Center . It will also do anything that you can do from a PC... and that is a lot. Of course a lot of Audiophile types will snub their nose at this , But, I can play DVD-Audio files or DVD music which is usually .MVI files...and all of this can be done in 2 Channel , DTS ...5.1 Surround . etc I also own a Roku Ultra. .Pandora Plus sounds Fantastic through the Roku (HDMI). can also see anything in 4K that it offers. I had the OPPO UDP-203. It has an HDMI input. It will output 4K. WC , I know you have a TV between those speakers. I know that you have an OPPO Udp 205. If you hook up a Roku Ultra in to it, your possibilities are Phenomenal. The big problem here is that the Ultra Hi-Fi (in most peoples opinion) is all about 2 channel. I am here to tell you that if you have something that takes and HDMI input ,You greatly expand your A/V experience. PC computer Example . I have a McCormack DAC-1, that I use for the outdoor pool speakers. I have usb out of my PC (Mainly J-River Media center) to a V-Link2 USB to spdif converter. (usb in and both Coaxial and optical out ) I am testing the following to see which sound better HDMI out of PC to HDMI l in on McIntosh MX150 Optical out of V-link 2 to Mx150 Coaxial out of V-Link 2 to McCoramck DAC-1 to Analog in of MX150 Optical out of V-link 2 to McCormack DAC-1 to analog in of MX150. Anyway my whole point is that , I may not be getting that awesome 2 Channel , but I have Awesome sound on 2.0 or 2.1 or 5.1. I think a lot of people are missing out on a lot with just dedicated 2 channel systems . Don’t get me wrong , everyone’s high end 2 channel setup is excellent and rewarding in its own right. This is all the more reason IMO for you to build that Home Theater Room ! Oh , and what i was going to say initially, to WCSS, with all due respect, .. is that , OP means "Original Poster" not necessarily "Owner of the Pages"
Technically, RIAA is right about starting other threads about other topics. But I think this thread is so popular because of the community that WC has built. Many people are catching his bug for enthusiasm, so it is natural that we can go off on tangents, off topic. But, if people are happy and enthusiastic, they are more likely to have good contributions ON TOPIC as well.
Contributing is all good. That said, am I the only person that is going through equipment in the last 3 years? I gotta believe some of you have swapped amplifiers throughout the last 3 years. Why not post your thoughts here? I know I’m not the only one here who goes through amps. Why don’t some of you put paper to pen and share your personal experience????
Sounds good. Question? Are you still thinking of doing the Home Theater setup in your existing room? Would love to hear your thoughts on a 11.1 or 11.2 system that you had mentioned. Curious as to what brands of speakers you would choose.
I just have to mention that Martin Logan has the Motion Speaker Systems with regular speakers and that nice sounding ribbon tweeter. The Motion XT series has quite a good total setup with Atmos and the side speakers. And of course, I would recommend REL subs as a great addition to no overdo the bass. More like an extension to existing speakers. This is just my recommendation. Love those ribbon tweeters. I have 2 of the Motion Vision Soundbars, and I love the sound. Never irritating. Just a suggestion.
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