You are pretty much thinking how I am thinking.... it’s pretty sad to have people who totally take advantage of others but there’s an idiot out there everyday who does what you and I did.
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
Hmm...I would be interested in knowing what dealers did you wrong so that I could avoid the experience. Consumers have great power when they honestly communicate what occurred in their transaction with a seller. I read consumer reviews closely. IMO your transaction experiences are more valuable than your equipment evaluations because you may value different sound attributes more or less than others, but everyone can agree that no one should pay for something and not get what they paid for. That's theft. And I try not to do business with thieves. |
I wish I could but lawyers are sharks and i could be the one getting even more screwed just for saying more. Just remember, if you pay anyone via check or wire transfer, you are at risk of losing that money even if you tell the cops. Hiring a lawyer is the only way to legally hurt the person doing you wrong but if hiring this lawyer is going to cost you more than the money you’re trying to recuperate, then why do it? Granted, you can always retaliate by hiring a hitman lol but when you have a family, you have more to think about. Having lawyer friends help big time for situations like this. Moral of the story? Stop paying people with checks or wire transfer even if they have a business! Try to build a relationship with them first by doing a few transactions so you can build trust. Deep inside, I’m pretty mad at myself but it’s my own fault. If I were single, didn’t have a kid, etc then I’d be acting different than I am right now. yes, paying for something and not getting it is theft. The issue is that you need a lawyer that can call the thief and put him in front of a judge. That will cost you $ and it won’t guarantee that you will see your money. |
I understand. But, there are fee shifting statutes in many states for deceptive trade practices like you describe. This means that the thief would be on the hook for your legal fees if they didn't make the deal right. There are lawyers in your state, whatever state you live in, that represent consumers who have been deceived into a purchase and charge a contingent fee. If they don't collect for you, then you don't pay them. It allows people to hire a lawyer to represent them without having to directly pay more money out of their pocket. The lawyer only takes the case if they believe it has merit and they can recover for their client. If this has happened to you a lot, I highly recommend you find this kind of lawyer in your state. |
Im the one who got nailed for 4K...not WCSS. In my case the guy said he was in Maryland...and then in later adds he posted he said he was in Chicago. The payments went thru Paypal to an address in Canada. The guy cashed the money at a bank and closed the account in Canada. Neither Paypal or my Credit Card company could divulge any info on the seller without a subpoena or whatever even thou they know I got screwed. Again...MY Fault but I would have hoped for more help from the companies involved. Legally they had to protect the scammers privacy rights over mine |
Paypal is guaranteed through them. If you paid through PayPal . Purchase Protection covers all eligible purchases where PayPal is used, as well as payments made through our website. To take advantage of Purchase Protection, we require, among other things, that PayPal accounts be kept in good standing and ask that a dispute be filed within 180 days of your purchase or payment. |
Not true 3-4 years ago. If you paid with a Paypal balance you were screwed. At that time paying with a PP Balance was like handing somebody CASH....no protection. I have been using Paypal since the late 1990's and have done about 30,000 Transactions thru them so please dont tell me how Paypal has worked over the past 20+ years. |
EBAY started in 1995....Paypal was not associated with EBAY until years later; You obviously did not pay with a PAYPAL BALANCE for your items. You paid with your Credit Card. Had you paid with a Paypal balance for at least the 1st 15-17 years that Paypal WAS connected with EBAY you would have lost your money if you didn't receive your item. So obviously you DONT know the rules that Paypal played by in the past. Just another example of you showing your ignorance about yet another topic. . |
Dealer feedback on Krell XD. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/preview-coda-technologies-new-generation-number-8-stereo-ampl... |
Based on comments in the link from yyzsantabarbara, the Krell XD is warmish and medium detailed. I wouldn't spend the money. I await the new Merrill Element 114 at $12K which Merrill says is very close to the SQ of the 116. See the comments of mattnshilp on the Merrill Element thread about the 116 vs Rowland 625 S2. The 116 is neutral with the highest level of clarity/transparency without fatigue, according to him. |
Well just so you all know just how RIAA really feels, here is a msg I received from him .Uncalled for. New Message From: riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook (Craig Schriever)Apr 2, 2019 1:40pmLeave the thread alone. Your completely wrong about Paypal. You shouldn't even be on Audiogon with that bottom of the barrel crap you call stereo equipment. GRANITE??? You have ZERO chance of selling that junk and you might as well just take it to a scrap yard cause they are the only people that would take it. Your "Audio Room" looks like it came straight out of the Brady Bunch house. All you need is some Lava Lamps and Bobby Sherman/David Cassidy posters. Take your low life equipment and go to the Steve Hoffman Forums where the bottom feeders reside. |
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I hear ya RIAA. I'm no saint with respect to expressing my opinions about an audiogon member. In the past, I've felt disdain for Mr. Viber6's additions to this thread...and I've taken plenty of jabs at him. On a side note - Hey Viber6, I appreciate your efforts to tone things down as of late, and I actually read the majority of your recent posts. Now don't get full of yourself and go back to the viber of old! I love reading about WC's journey. Stay thirsty my virtual friends and colleagues. Ken |
Update on my cables: The nordost Odín speaker cables have settled. There is no brightness that I can pick up anymore. The shunyata nr alpha powercords were an excellent choice for my block audios. They added more slam while taming down the highs just a bit which was perfect. i was informed today that the Lampizator pacific is near finished so I expect to have it when I come back from axpona. i am also playing with the idea of bringing a rockport speaker at some point. I’ve heard the following from different sources: they are too bright they don’t image at all they don’t sound coherent. That said, reviews praise rockports. They claim they are some of the best speakers. If you are asking why rockports? Well I have the opportunity to buy a pair of Rockport Altair v2 locally. I’ve heard them in a room that I am not familiar with and that isn’t really appropriate. He has the boulder 2060 and a dcs Rossini dac driving them. I don’t really know how to categorize their sound. I need more time listening to them to really judge them. Will that speaker best my Neolith? Hmmm not quite sure but it is one hell of a shootout |
WC, The Rockport looks interesting. The relatively smaller drivers facing you will create a more correct focused image compared to the Neo, in the mid/HF. Its Be tweeter probably has more accurate HF than the Neo. This looks like a better version of the Persona 9H, or maybe not, because the 9H has the additional room correction feature to tighten up the bass. However, the Rockport doesn't have Be drivers for the midrange, so you will see if its midrange is as accurate as your 3F. Listen carefully at the dealer for accuracy (inteliigibility of words, etc.) not big soundstage which is only a type of virtual reality, or really virtual fantasy. But the most important question is whether all that money that went into the enclosure and carbon fiber midrange driver has created a midrange that exceeds electrostatics for accuracy. I DOUBT IT. If electrostatic midrange reigns supreme, then even any of the cheaper ML stats will have more accurate midrange than the 10-15x price Rockport. For that price, the dealer should accommodate you for 10 listening sessions of 2 hours each, so there is no need to go through the hassle of moving them into your room, losing a lot of money when you realize you made a mistake, etc. If you listen for accuracy, you will assess the Rockport in only a few sessions. Big sound fields and volume don't mean much if the accuracy/clarity is not SOTA. Those glowing reviews of expensive big speakers like Rockport merely compare them to other dynamic speakers, not electrostatics. Even John Atkinson of Stereophile in his recent review of the $200K Tidal speaker doesn't compare it to electrostatics. Although he is musically knowledgeable, he is a bass freak and devotes less analysis to accuracy of mid/HF. His business model is getting big ad dollars from expensive dynamic speaker companies, so his mag rarely reviews electrostatics which are cheaper and more accurate. Don't dump your Neo for a long time. At Axpona, listen to the electrostatics from Muraudio and Sanders Sound Systems, the GT Audio planar/ribbons, even the Klipschorn. Wait until the summer when the Yamaha NS5000 will be available in the US. Those all-Zylon drivers in the Yamaha look promising. Don't spend a penny on speakers until you have heard all these contenders. |
WC, with communications such as RIAA and Greyhound, Viber, and my embarrassing hostility towards him, are some of the reasons I have not been active here. Be that as it may, you must have liked the Rockports at this local home to you, enough so, that you are considering them, even though you said the room was not appropriate. Same thoughts of mine with your Neos and your room, although you seem to have made them work. After 50 years in high end audio sales and consulting, I wrote a post on another thread that I wanted to share with you, and your readers. HERE IT IS : " I believe an audio system, as a whole, should be able to " show forth " the recordings, in such a way, that when you are in your listening seat ( the sweet spot ), you are hearing your favorite artists and musicians, performing at their " finest ", in their chosen acoustic space, and you, are completely engulfed, and entertained, in the experience ". I hope, one day, you get there. I have, with very little money. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Thank you mrdecibel. As far as you not posting here in a while,you can’t let others opinions affect yours. If I had been affected by what others said, I wouldn’t have the neoltihs, the lampizator, block audios etc. I would be stuck with the same gear that the vast majority buys. I know that some of you haven’t posted in a while which is fine if that’s because you just got busy with work and family etc. We all go through those cycles throughout the year. Anyhow, I will be bringing a new power amplifier in a week or so. It is not an expensive amp and it should be very interesting for most of you because it retails for less than 10k. It is not an amp that has been in the market very long either so stay tuned. |
Dear Mr Decibel, I take exception to your bringing my name up. You state you haven't posted in awhile because of me and others. For the record...up until 2 or 3 days ago I didn't even know who that other party was nor had I ever responded towards him in the past. So your going to have to come up with another excuse. My last Communication with Viber I was trying to help him with my vast knowledge of shipping to/from other Countries. I haven't said an Ill word to him or anybody else in quite some time. As far as the last "incident" it all started innocently with me giving my experience of getting burned on Audio Mart and sharing it with the board and WCSS since he was in a similar situation. I cant help another intervened with his "thoughts". I thought it was quite considerate of me to keep my total disgust off this thread and have it out in a private setting instead. The other party obviously took the high road and aired the dirty laundry for all to see to try to gain support. Prior to this WCSS filed a missing persons report on me because I hadn't written anything in quite some time. So I am calling you out for using me as an excuse why you haven't posted in awhile. Total you know what. In the future if you have a problem with me by all means take the time to send me a PM. I PROMISE I wont post your private message for the world to see. |
RIAA, I so apologize to you, if you thought my intentions were negative in any way towards you. Contrarily, the only person on this thread I ever had a problem with, was viber, and my handlings of it were rude and unnecessary. My example was given, only as a recent example, of all of the bantering and nastiness between posters, not just on this thread, but on many others as well. I admit to all of my own nastiness, but I am finding myself losing patience with so much of the verbiage and attitude showing up everywhere. If I have become weak at the age of 65, well, maybe. I do not remember, 20 plus years ago, this going on. So many know it all’s ( including myself ), and the butting of heads. Just too much. I would love to take WCs advice, and just ignore it. Again, I do apologize to you. BTW, the attitudes between posters are not the only reasons I stayed away from this thread, as I believe I indicated ( " are some " of the reasons ). Always, MrD. |
thezaks, Yes, I agree that my sonic priorities are different from many people here and elsewhere. My earliest musical experiences have taught me that overall clarity reigns supreme. When people were making live music and I walked in, I heard the clarity and excitement blazing at me like brilliant sunlight. There was no imaging, depth of field, etc. Nothing but brilliant sound. Spatially where it came from mattered less than its clarity. As far as an art form goes, some people like vague impressionistic painting, and others prefer the realism of the old masters. Those subjective preferences are fine, and although music itself is classified as an art form, the goal of high fidelity means that clarity should take on a greater importance. I was impressed by the artistry of some of my violin teachers, but I was surprised at their emphasis on precision and accurate, objective technique. They spent much less time discussing their interpretations and wanted me to improve my technique and play with more objective accuracy as a prerequisite to discussing the subjective art. |
WC, If the Sanders electrostatics are handicapped by a small room at Axpona the way they were in NY, you can get a free month or so trial at home. He probably pays shipping at least one way, and maybe roundtrip if you return them. The package will come with his amp for the bass section. You can also try this amp full range in your present system. It is highly thought of as being accurate but not sterile, powerful and cheap. |
Ever listen to an orchestra, band or group, and they played horribly together, during that particular performance. Timing was just off. Systems can be " off " in this way, and this is more important, to me, than ultimate detail and definition. And no question, dynamics, as I have stated before. But, it is possible to have it all, if you know what you are doing in setting up a system. Regards, and Enjoy ! MrD. |
Mrdecibel, i dont think it is possible to have it all in a speaker. I’ve had quite a few speakers and some did things better than others but lacked something else. There’s no such thing as the perfect speaker and this is WHY you can’t have it all. For instance: I loved Wilson audios dynamics and slam. I love the neoltihs huge soundstage. I love the mids from the personas. With that said, they all had weaknesses. |
MrD, No system even most perfectly set up, has it all. You have noted how electrostatics are more detailed but less powerful than dynamic speakers, but you happen to like the fleshy body and ultimate dynamics of your Klipsch La Scala speakers. The conductor of an orchestra hears it all better than any orchestra member or listener in the audience. If the listener is far back, he is hearing much less of everything than a closer listener. The car radio has better sound than that heard by the distant concert listener, but no "perfect" system comes close to any aspect of the live sound heard by the conductor. |
WC, Ah, do you now mean that the midrange from your 3F is more accurate (words, etc) than the Neo, even though the midrange of the Neo is bigger? Now see if the midrange of the Rockport is more accurate than the 3F. My guess is that the Be midrange driver of the 3F is superior. The 3F enclosure is no slouch, even though the Rockport enclosure is more ambitious. Since the 3F is not that heavy, I hope the seller permits you to bring them over to his room to A/B. His Boulder amps are very different from any of your amps, so at present it may be difficult to make this apples/orange comparison. |
wc, viber…..Perfect ? Does it all ? Never said that. I used the word " finest ", as an artist or musician will generally, never have a mediocre performance put down on a final pressing = the recordings we buy. My system plays "everything " and " all kinds of music " very well, and sometimes, scarily real. Please read my quote again. My system does for me, " what I want it to ". If I was given a set of Neo’s, I would sell them and pocket the money. Maybe get a pair of JBL 67000, or Volti Vittoras with matching subs. I do not have the room for the AG Trio XD system. Enjoy ! MrD. |
@whitecamaross I was curious if you had seen this review. You would be able to try some lower powered tube amps with these as they are 93 db sensitivity. https://hometheaterreview.com/paradigm-persona-5f-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/ |
grey9hound, Excellent point you made about how efficient speakers enable you to use low powered amps. For clarity and purity of sound, low power amps can be better than their high powered siblings. This is because fewer devices have less distortion than more devices with their likelihood of imperfect matching. I have no experience with low powered tube amps, but they are said to be ideal for very efficient horn speakers. My experience with the Bryston 2.5B SST2 is that it is vastly superior to the 4B SST2 despite the company's claim that they sound the same, have identical specs except for power, blah, blah. |
Once again we are walking down the road of perspective. Various posters have different views of what is more important and/or sounds best to THEIR ears. We do not all have the same preferences in sound and due to experience have specific preferences. There is no absolute and right or wrong is a matter of subjective taste, particularly at the levels of gear WCSS is involved with. What makes a great analogy is cars as I am old enough to have ridden in a Camaro SS when it was new back in the day. While I love big American iron, I also have owned and restored a Lotus Europa, quite a different vehicle. Is one better than the other, yes at some things, yet the other sparkles in a different dimension. Some people love power, some love handling, similar to audio. At the high end you get much of each, in lower brackets you can get much of one and less of the other. Audio is much the same. The same is true with audio gear. Thus, there are no absolutes in terms of "Best". Thinking that a personal preference is superior to other's view is just a fools errand. That is why I LOVE WCSS's journey through gear in a random walk through the top end of what most of us cannot afford. I stole the term "random walk" from a financial reference. There is nothing better than an honest review of all things audio and that is what the journey is about IMHO. I am quite enjoying the ride and the minor bickering is the price I pay for reading all the posts here (not a slam at any poster, just observation). Rock on WCSS!! |
maplegrovemusic, When I heard an older Sanders hybrid 10B well set up at a home, it was superb, rivaling the ML CLX for accuracy at least in the range of the stat panel. The panel of all Sanders models is flat, and the vertical height of the panels is modest, giving superior HF. The Neo gives a reasonable trade-off with strong points of dynamics and great stat midrange, but weak point of HF rolloff compared to the CLX, due to its large curved panel. The original King Sound King was better than all of these for clarity, but its major disadvantage was its 6 foot height of the flat panel. I like the tweeter design of 3 inch wide small height segments, so the horizontal dispersion of HF is excellent. My experience with tall panels is that at the extremes of the top and bottom, the HF are rolled off. So the HF from the most accurate ear level portion of the panel gets added to the HF from the extremes where there is rolloff in proportion to the distance off axis vertically. The total HF perceived at ear level is reduced compared to a shorter speaker, such as my Audiostatic. The most dramatic demonstration of this was when I heard the Stax F81 against the F83 which was two F81's stacked vertically. The F83 was rolled off compared to the F81. When you offered the KS17 for sale, I considered them, but their height caused me to pass. But you may prefer the Adam Audio because its modest size may provide greater clarity than the KS17. I like the panel design of the KS17, but I wish King Sound came out with a short 4 foot model of the same concept. Of course it would be less efficient, but the clarity might be superior to most everything else. And the marketing distribution of King Sound is terrible. No North American dealer carried the Hummingbird electrostatic tweeter. |
ihasaguy, I partially agree with your points about preferences. But the goal of high fidelity is accuracy, literally. The absolute sound of the real thing is different depending on room or hall size or outdoors, listener distance, etc. Here is where preferences play a role--someone might like live music from a distance, and others might prefer close upfront sound. The real purpose of the reference point of the absolute sound is to give one an idea of what a hifi system should be striving for. It is OK to create a sound system of whatever sound one may fantasize about, even if it sounds nothing like the real thing. Just admit that one's goal in that case is subjective fantasy, not high fidelity. |
All, i like having everyone's input (although some tend to have more than that). I don't want for people to take things personal or getting hurt when this is really just about following what someone else is doing (in this case me). Am i going to say my speakers are the best? hell no. i haven't heard yours or everything else that is out there. Lastly, even if i had listened to everything out there, it will be my opinion (as it could be yours as well) that a certain product is better than another based on my ownership of these products. Do i want to buy a speaker that can come into my room and sound better than the Neolith for half the money so i can pocket the rest? HELL YEA i do. I just don't think that it will be an easy thing to do. I will be bringing more items that are more affordable in the near future because i do sense that some of you get a little distant when i explore with expensive stuff. Lastly, i am sure you have all noticed that i am right now playing with speakers even though this is supposed to be an amplifier journey. However, as i have stated in the past, there are no other amps that call my name right now and the ones that are in my bucket list have not come at a decent deal for me to bring them. This is why, for right now, i have not continued with more amps, but i do have one coming in a week or so that is affordable and that should be interesting. So far, these are the amps that stand out for me and that i have owned: In no particular order: Block Audio SE Luxman 900u (monos) Musical Fidelity Titan Simaudio 860A Jeff Rowland 925 |
@whitecamaross If you still have the Persona 3F, I hope u get the chance to test it with the Luxman 900u. That is a combo I am considering with the Anthem STR preamp (I want ARC 3 DSP). I heard the Persona 5F with the Simaudio 860A and it sounded rather impressive. I am also considering the Jeff Rowland 535 based on the talking points I read on them on this thread. BTW - my guess for the next amp u are getting is the Benchmark AHB2 |
