I wonder what they could be?Tektons :-)
My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series
NAD M25
PARASOUND HALO
PARASOUND CLASSIC
KRELL TAS
KRELL KAV 500
KRELL CHORUS
ROTEL RMB 1095
CLASSE CT 5300
CLASSE CA 2200
CLASSE CA 5200
MCINTOSH MC 205
CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7
OUTLAW AUDIO 755
LEXICON RX7
PASS LABS XA 30.8
BUTLER AUDIO 5150
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer.
My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes)
Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp.
Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too
Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either.
Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
20,890 responses
i have no plans of replacing the neos anytime soon unless a shocking event occurs that i simply feel is a good move. Nothing is impossible here but one of my friends said that i now have been with the neoliths for a few months and this will be a testament to my ears how inferior things will sound once i take them out of the equation. He actually urged me to try these other speakers so i can validate his point of view. In short, i have been told the following by 2 different groups of people: Group 1 says: Get rid of the Neoliths because they are not shinning in my room due to the size of my room. Get a smaller speaker that will potentially sound better than the neoliths in this room Group 2 says: No way in hell that a smaller speaker will come into your room and best the Neoliths. Yes, the room is on the small side for a speaker of their size, but even in your room, no way in hell the neoliths will get killed by a cheaper and smaller speaker. Laws of physics won’t allow that to happen. Even if the Neoliths are only showing you 75% of what they can do due to the size of the room, that 75% will STILL SMOKE a bunch of speakers. |
Group 2...... 1st of all they are Martin Logans, and the panel size will work in many size rooms. The bottom end could overwhelm the room, but with some tweaks, that can be effectively fixed. So it's going to be hard to have any smaller speaker sound better. Are there speakers that will sound as good or better? Could be that you could find more dynamics, or velvet sound. I think thate remember you talking about having another sound room for your endgame in your home. And it would be a little bigger. So the variable would change, and the Neoliths would have more room to shine against others. I would clearly hold onto the Neolith until you knew you had something better. Nothing worse than buyers remorse. |
i agree bigddesign3. I am not trying to sell anything before i try something else. The Neoliths aren’t exactly easy to find on the used market so it is not like i can sell mine and get another pair at a deal the next day. My intuition says i will find the other flavor of speakers "interesting and appealing" but the sheer size of the sound, bottom end fullness, etc etc will be hard to compensate. Yes, i was urged to dare to try to beat the Neoliths in my room so that a huge shock happens when i see how anemic/thin/small other speakers will sound comparison.. |
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WC, As I said in the past, the smaller ML CLX plus a subwoofer will give you greater accuracy at all freq, although the Neo gives more quantity of bass. $30K retail for the CLX + REL which also better matches your room versus $80K for the Neo which is performing much less than 75% of its capability in a larger room, unless you play with Lyngdorf room correction. But there is no $10K dynamic speaker that will compete with either ML stat. |
Ok guys, im headed home with paradigm personas 3f. Local purchase so it was easy and although I wanted the bigger ones, this one will give me the house sound of this line AND I’ll be able to have my first experience with a beryllium midrange driver. I’m excited to form my own opinion on this line even though I was advised against it. Feedback has been that these make your ears bleed because the tweeter is bright etc. That said, I was also told the same about magico. Another thing is I still own the ref10 which should work extremely well with this speaker. You all wanted feedback on this speaker ? Well stay tuned... remember, I owned magico and focal so I will know exactly how this paradigm persona line compares to them.... |
@whitecamaross Nice choice. I am also going to buy these soon for my small office. I am debating what amp to get with these: Luxman m900u Krell xd125 T+A a3000hv (audiogon demo unit) Anthem STR amp SimAudio 860a Jeff Rowland 535 I have heard the bigger Persona 5F with a SimAudio 800a amp and it was what made me decide to buy the smaller 3F. I will get the Anthem STR preamp because I want room correction for my small office. It will be interesting to hear what amps you like with the 3F you are getting. BTW - a few posters here have mentioned that no toe in helps get the best sound. I demoed with toe-in and it sounded great. |
WC, I can't contain my enthusiasm for your brilliant choice of this Paradigm 3F, mainly for the promise of the Be midrange driver. Before you report, I will stick my neck out without having heard these, that in many ways this will be your best speaker yet. I recant my words that no $10K dynamic speaker can compete with the Neo. The 3F will give your Magico big competition and will make its $10K price a superb value. The low mass high rigidity Be midrange and HF drivers are probably the best a dynamic speaker can do to compete with even lower mass electrostatic drivers. My guess is that the 3F will better the Neo in HF accuracy, only because large curved stat panels are rolled off in HF compared to smaller flat focused stat panels. The range covered by the Be drivers is comparable to that of the Neo, so it will be interesting to see how the 3F compares in resolution/accuracy to the Neo. Of course the Neo has more power and breadth of image, but this comes at a price of accuracy. Grey9hound's reservation about the minus 2dB point at 48 Hz will be countered by the probably high accuracy of the Be's mid and upper bass overtones which help enormously in satisfaction with overall bass quality, if not quantity. Don't soften the sound from the 3F--go for its accuracy and truth telling. Seek electronics and cables that are also accurate and revealing. Accuracy is addictive and you will want more of it. Just don't blast at unnatural high volumes and try to make the 3F sound like a powerful Klipschorn. Treat it like you did the Magico. Another woman analogy--appreciate a beautiful short woman in modest heels but don't put her in gross 8 inch heels to make her as tall as possible. Appreciate the smallish 3F for the beauty she is, well balanced and high accuracy for your room. |
Listening session happening right now. Just fired things up. Stay tuned as I will put my thoughts down. First impression: -Speakers disappear. You can’t locate them. - outstanding midrange. I’d say it bests the mágicos mids. - Neolith have a wall of sound. Far more like 3d surround. - smaller presentation when compared to the Neolith. Think of it as you watching a movie in your home theater and then you go watch the same movie at an iMax theater. - sound does not go over my head which creates a feeling of not much depth - Neolith is IMPRESSIVE after taking it out. so far, group #2 seems to be winning... impossible to produce the massive amount of air from those panels with a smaller speakers. |
WC, Just what I thought. Sure, the Neo is bigger in sound. But bigger isn't necessarily better. Size and depth are less important than accuracy and information retrieval at both low and moderately high volumes. See whether the 3F retrieves more information from your recordings, such as enunciation of words in songs. You should get familiar with classical music which has much more complexity than pop/rock, etc. Choral recordings such as Borodin Polovetzsin Dances have massed voices in Russian where the pronunciation is very hard to pick up. This is why accuracy is needed above all. So far the midrange accuracy of the 3F is most significant and important. |
I know many of you me feel I am very partial or bias to the GT audio works planar speaker system- but I am quite sincere and letting you know that being an audio dealer for almost 30 years and have heard almost everything out there including the Neoliths as we were a Martin Logan dealer- that there is nothing that comes close to what the GT system can produce sonically. All I am asking is that you have an open mind and if you have an opportunity to listen to them we will be at Axpona this coming April from the 12th to the 14th in room 1430 we will be exhibiting with Zanden Audio and Sound Insight. I look forward to meeting anyone that is reading or posting on this forum. |
3 hours into the listening session and toeing them out slightly helped with the high frequencies. Again, what a revelation... the mids are OUTSTANDING and I rate them a 10/10. I suspect the big brands are going to begin trying beryllium in their mid range drivers... Word on the street is that Harman plans to release their next salon 3s with beryllium midrange drivers. This is why they’ve taken so long to release them. Anyhow, the persona has THE BEST MIDs of any woofer/cone speaker I’ve owned. I can understand the lyrics better than ever. |
Hello WC, like you, I cannot evaluate properly the behavior of a system solely based on someone else's music genre and tracks. As I have attended more than a handful of RMAF shows, I have always been equipped with my own homegrown CD sampler. Not because the tracks I brought along are spectacularly recorded -- which in some cases they are not, but because I know intimately their ability to expose a system's rendering of fine detail, as well as any distortive quirks. In 95% of cases, exhibitors have been more than accomodating in spinning any of my CD tracks, as well as selections from CDs and USB sticks of other visitors... Very seldom I found a system to be completely locked into the exhibitor's library. Granted, in recent times I would be likely to find a number of suites that do not have a CD spinner, So I would want to rip my test tracks onto a USB stick for loading onto the local server. Saluti, G.
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WC, Wonderful! Don't be afraid of high freq. Upper mids and HF convey the natural harmonic overtones of bass and midrange fundamentals of all instruments. They are important for lifelike clarity and what makes things "pop" as you call it. Full toe-in with both 3F speakers facing your ears will give you maximum clarity. The Be drivers are lowest in distortion so their HF will not irritate you, provided you keep volumes sensible. Just get used to natural extended HF which will deliver the full overtones of midrange instruments and voices, even plucks of the string bass and the growl attack of mid bass brass and drums. I should mention why I have come to hate big sound fields. My first audiophile speaker in 1978 was the Magneplanar Tympani 1D. The HF part of the panels mesmerized me, and the huge sound field was exciting at first. These were like room dividers like those nice screens for changing clothes in movies--each speaker was 6 ft tall, the maximum width was 4 ft but folding the panels brought the width down to about 3.5 ft. If the inner edges of each speaker were 5 ft apart, then the outer edges were 12 feet apart. So the sound field was at least 12 ft wide--huge, but unfortunately the images were huge and unnatural, with a singer being huge like a hippopotamus. Totally wrong and un-lifelike, with penalties in clarity. (The same was true when I heard a friend's KLH 9 stats a few years ago. The KLH 9 was one of the most famous stats of all time. The KLH 9 was the size of the Maggie 3 series, smaller than my Tympani 1D.) The tone was nice, but I couldn't take the unnatural bloated images. So I got rid of the Tympani after 1 year, and found much more satisfaction with the little BBC mini monitor, the Rogers LS 3/5a. Even though the Rogers had conventional dynamic drivers that weren't as fast as the planar drivers of the Maggie, the smaller focused image of the Rogers won me over. I only sold the Rogers after I found my present electrostatics, the Audiostatic 240, whose moderate sized image is just right. So I hope you come to appreciate the 3F, whose overall clarity seems to beat the Neo, since you "understand the lyrics better than ever." Toe-in will enhance the clarity even more. And the moderate size of the 3F will produce lifelike naturally sized images. The 3F is a wonderful discovery and represents top value. Congratulations! |
WC, Also, the Soundstage review of the Paradigm Persona model B suggests that it is more revealing and has more snap than the Martin Logan classic 9 model. Aside from the deficient low bass of the B, it may be better than the 3F above 60 Hz, since the Be midrange driver is also used down to 60Hz. The aluminum bass driver of the F series is not as fast/accurate as the Be driver in the model B. It is exciting that the Be drivers as used here can compete and even exceed the resolution/accuracy of the electrostatic elements of that ML model. Then the ultimate shootout would be between the $7K model B and the $25K ML CLX which have similar bass response, but the Be tweeter is more extended. What do you find when comparing the HF of the 3F and the Neo? |
This is one interesting but funky thread. How do you go from the big ML to Paradigm? Geez. No Wilson. No big Magico(i think). No big Maggie’s and on and on. and you use odin. flipping gear around is great fun if you can afford to play the game but old school bias would not lead me to Paradigm. no i’ve not heard them and don’t question that they may sound really good but fun is playing with ML, Wilson, Magnepan, Magico etc. A truly unsolicited opinion so my apologies if I’ve offended anyone. |
Paradigm
and Martin Logan is owned and made at the same facility in Canada. The new Persona line is extremely well made. Some don't like the high end, as I've not heard any of the line. I can only say that they are trying to compete to be the best you can buy with dynamic drivers. Time will tell if WCSS can get the perfect tone out of these babies. But I gotta say that his choice of the Persona line is something that I have always wanted to hear myself. Sure, the 9f is the flagship, and should be the one to buy for the endgame SOTA system. The bass is amplified, where the Persona 7f is not. This company also owns Anthem. There are a lot of moving parts here, and it will only get better with Anthem, Paradigm, and Martin Logan under it's roof as assets. I would love to have the Persona 9f to try in my sound room. |
Guys, im in talks as we speak to bring the persona 7f to my home. The 9h should be interesting but I want my block audio amps to do the woofer mangling. The 3f is great but each time I sit down, I feel like the upper half of the living room has no music. It is expected given its footprint. I don’t know which way I will go or if I’ll just keep playing with the 3f for a few more weeks. This was supposed to be a fun purchase for me to hear these speakers. It wasn’t supposed to be for me to swap out my Neoliths which are superior of course. Bringing the 7f persona would be more about me bringing a speaker that should present a larger soundstage and more bottom end. I want to see what it does and how it interacts in my room. Dont forget that my block audios and ref10 are on the sidelines. I have not even tried those with the speakers but I certainly will do that at some point. I need to also play with the rake Angle of these speakers to see if I can lift up the presentation some. I want it to be a bit taller than what it is. Yes, the neoltihs damaged me when it comes to monstrous sound and 3d sound. I accepted it today that I probably won’t get that back again but I want to see WHAT I can get from other offerings and if these new attributes can satisfy me as much as the neoltihs do. Also, don’t get it twisted. I am not swapping the neoltihs for the 3f. This is an experiment that may lead to interesting findings. I had contemplated focal Scala Evo, paradigm persona, Wilson audio Sasha Daw and it so happens I found a local deal on the 3f persona. I’m now attempting to hunt and lock in a deal on the 7f because I want to hear what this bigger persona speaker will do. |
Suncoast's owner is not alone in his feelings that the Paradigm beryllium speakers are excessively bright, seems to be quite a bit of agreement from those that have heard them in this thread, along with a Paradigm dealer defending their sound and suggesting that they require some extra care in matching with appropriate gear in order to realize their potential. Seem to be somewhat of a polarizing speaker series. The Persona B monitors received quite a negative review from 10 Audio, which points out many similar claims of an unnaturally bright and aggressive sound and ultimately rated them a dismal 2 out of 10 LPs. |
I have been to Mikes store and bought a few items from him. he didn’t really like the Neolith or wasn’t fond of it which I understand since sound is subjective. That said, the Neolith totally kill the Magico s5 mk2. It’s is the best speaker I’ve owned and it should be given its price. Same thing goes for those who talked bad about the Neoliths based on what they heard at shows. I am willing to let anyone live with my set up for a week and then go back to hearing their set ups. You will immediately detect the sound being substantially smaller and you won’t have the bubble of sound that they present. Maybe doing this experiment with multiple speakers allows me to validate how impressive the neoltihs are. For now, I don’t even know WHAT speaker could even keep me entertained. The neoltihs are not exactly an easy act to follow... here are speakers that I think could hit the sweet pot and do enough for me to perhaps consider moving in a different direction: -focal stella utopia (v3) -Wilson Sasha daw -Wilson Alexia v2 cant think of anything else right now. |
I’m not judging the line right now. Yes, I will cycle through all my stuff with these speakers. This means: block audio shunyata cables lampizator pacific musical fidelity titan audio Research ref10 i need to live with these speakers for a little in order to form a solid opinion. Again, one thing you all can be sure of: the best mids I’ve had from any woofer/tweeter speaker. This means its mids are better than my previous speakers: revel salon 2 magico s5mk2 vivid audio g1 wilson Sasha 2 sonus faber cremonese b&w 803d3 b&w 800n dynaudio c4 platinum Dynaudio C1 platinum monitor audio pl300 monitor audio pl500 golden ear Triton 1 sonus faber Amati futura sonus faber olympica 3 focal sopra 3 Dynaudio evidence temptation |