My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!

No, it looks most like a battleship.  See what happens when there is a lack of clarity, and in black and white?  I don't regularly look at yachts, but a yacht would have a curved front bow and have a generally graceful shape and outline.  The crude low rez picture shows a more mean looking boat, so that's why I thought it was a tank or a battleship.

A lot less trouble with the cat 🤔

Haha....so with a tank you get 4 women.  viber needs an eyeglass prescription update.

That’s not a tank lol. Oh my!!! Thats a yacht!

Funny cartoons.

Poo-poo on tubes, the last one.

But motorcycles are LOUD, so you'll go deaf and the lovely woman will have to shout for you to hear her. 

Most tasteful is the soccer ball which shows finesse and sensitivity.

BMW is a quiet car with a smooth, nimble ride AND with power.  

Don't idolize big tanks which are about destruction.

Jay,

Great discussion of listening at various SPL's.  OSHA has info about hearing loss from several hours of exposure at various SPL's.  Above 85 dB is risky.  Sustained 90 dB is really dangerous.  One nice aspect of classical music is that live levels are about 70 dB or less most of the time.  Of course, there are swells to 100 dB, but these are infrequent.  

In my early days, I was entranced by my Maggie Tympani 1D at 100-110 dB on big orchestra music.  The dealer even said that I listen very loud.  But I got tired of the bloated image and lack of focused clarity.  These days, I enjoy my high resolution system at 30-70 dB with peaks at 80 dB for most music.  It is nice to get satisfaction at lower SPL's, as I listen with my brain and not my stomach.  I listen only for 30-45 min sessions not because of hearing fatigue, but because I like to take a break from intense mental concentration as with reading technical material.

This is akin to intense weight lifting.  You want to lift maximum weight, but can only do it for about 30 seconds.  Walking 4 miles for an hour is worthwhile for calorie burning, but you won't build muscle that way.

If you read Fremer's Gryphon Apex review, and combine it with Jay's observation that the Gryphon Vanta speaker cables are warm sounding vs Transparent Opus cables, you get the impression that Gryphon is good but warmish vs neutral electronics like Boulder.  Jay already had lots of G amps and concluded that the Boulder system is the absolute best for neutrality and information retrieval.  I predict that the Apex will be a step backwards from Boulder.

This amp is practically broken. JA measurements conclusion: "Presumably, the left channel’s higher levels of distortion and noise and its higher output impedance than the right channel’s are sample-specific." Yet these guys are raving about it 🙄

If that is what they sent MF, what are you going to get :(

Thanks for the review!

I am very excited to get it in here. 

That Apex amp is 210Wpc SS for 100k. I was expecting a few more watts, tbh! Edit: I see it's "biased heavily into class-a".  I should have already looked for that.

Thought this new review of the Gryphon Apex stereo amp from Michael Fremer might be of interest here before Jay gets his. MF also gets to check it out with the matching Commander preamp.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/gryphon-apex-stereo-power-amplifier

David, a great tag line ! TY, and my best to you and yours. Always, MrD. I think it best I stay away from this thread for a while. 

@mrdecibel  +1   Member matthias on WBF uses a tag-line you will appreciate:

Jay, I really feel for you. You, and many of your followers ( not all ) are very uneducated and inexperienced, when it comes to music reproduction....specifically live, unamplified music. Dynamic range, melody, harmony, and rhythm, are all essential ingredients of what makes music pleasurable and compelling to listen to. Without looking these terms up, do you know what any of these characteristics are ? I am not here to debate, or to let you know I am a better listener than you, as we listen for different things. Everyone here likely thinks I am a headbanger. On the contrary, I know live music. I grew up around, and involved, with live music. You, and many of your followers, are imo, ignorant to what really matters when it comes to music reproduction. You do not need a 1mil system to create an illusion of live, unamplified music. You do not want to visit me, so you can be educated, on " how I listen, and what I listen for ". That is fine. Your thread is entertaining, but to a guy like me, nothing learned. Your latest video suggests that I am crazy, deaf, clueless, and question my listening habits. You are missing the big picture. Did you ever get yourself a Tonian Labs recording as I suggested, as they are very live sounding. How about a Sheffield Labs drum / track recording. The sound is live. I would love to hear your system play these, and at a decent and realistic volume level. A favorite recording of mine is by a jazz fusion band Return to Forever ( RIP Chick Corea ), titled " Romantic Warrior ". Would love to hear this on your system. I will NOT be listening for imaging, nor sound staging. I will not be listening to determine where the musicians are located on a stage. I will not be listening for the " sound " of the keyboard, bass, guitar or drums, but HOW they are played, which is the essence of why I listen. And truthfully, many systems I have listened to, cannot play it properly, to these ears. There are limitations to the recording itself ( every recording has limitations ), so trying to make a guitar sound a particular way, is crazy.... Keith Don’t Go is a perfect example of this, but people try to do it anyway. It is not about that. You, listen to, and for, hifi.....I, listen to music. This is not a criticism of you, or anyone. It is what this hobby has become, and I find it unfortunate, for the merry go round that people are on. My system captures, FOR ME, the essence of music. I apologize in advance for my outburst. Anyway, I am done here ! ....My best, always, MrD.

Another +vote for Medeski, Martin and Wood.

Happy Listening!

@viber6 So true. Always striving for the unattainable. So the best we can do is inch closer a little at a time.  However some systems are doing pretty good at low level retrieval. I feel the recording process will always be the greatest limiting factor. Recording companies just aren’t going to go to that extent to please a handful of audiophiles. That’s why there will always be a place for live concerts. 

Right.  The best playback SPL enables full appreciation of detailed info with clarity. Goldilocks--not too soft, not too loud.  The ideal natural tonal balance at the Goldilocks SPL will be altered if the SPL is too soft or too loud.  Still, one characteristic of live, natural sound is that even soft and at a far distance, the live quality is instantly recognizable vs the relative garbage from all audio systems.  Why?  Live natural sound has clarity even when soft.

@viber6 yes I agree with the concepts you just presented, tho I thought the human ear was most sensitive and resonates at 5khz but you could be right. Anyway thats why discussions about SPL levels can’t be appreciated. Different frequencies different tolerances. Also I do agree that proper levels are important but proper tonal balance is the key here if you want it to sound real.  A lower level just puts you further back in the hall but can still sound real if tonally correct.  Some systems will alter the tone with volume level which is not good. 

It's obvious that different types of music have different natural listening levels.  The Fletcher Munson curve shows human sensitivity at various frequencies.  At 3 kHz, the ear is maximally sensitive, so 80 dB is loud, but at 20 Hz it is very soft.  It would take over 120 dB at 20 Hz to be considered loud.  Music is an assortment of all frequencies, and it takes experience with natural music to discern what is really true to life in an audio system.  Those people who have no goal of high fidelity and just want to blast a system will find this discussion irrelevant to them.  However, I spend some time tweaking the volume to find the best SPL that produces the most natural, lifelike fidelity, with maximum clarity and focus.  A little too loud, makes for a bloated fuzzy presentation that is not musically true to life.  Spending big bucks on cables and such doesn't reveal the music as well as getting the SPL right, with natural levels.

Hahahaha lmao 

@mrdecibel 

You married ,?

marriage over if i played that song at 100db

Another point that has been raised by me and others here, is the recording itself. I do believe you can have so much detail, that the nasties of recordings are shining through. I always said the recordings are our limiting factor. I spoke about recordings by Tonian Labs ( very real sounding ), and another amazing " lifelike recording " that should be a must have by all, is " friday afternoon in the universe ", by the trio Medeski Martin and Wood. Enjoy !

When measuring SPL keep in mind that it depends on what frequency spectrum you are measuring.  If you are measuring a system that goes down to 16 hz,  like when using big subs or huge speakers,  90 db may not be too bothersome. However if the system only goes down 30hz and you play it at 90db now most of you SPL is coming from the higher frequencies which likely be uncomfortable. So the bass extension will significantly affect the SPL measurements. Everyone would need to be using the same weighted measurement in order to compare. 

mrdecibel

If I owned a 1mil system, I would expect " it " to hit peaks of over 100db. My system does it easily, and I never feel it is congested, too detailed, irritating....whatever. What Jay is describing, ime, and this will piss people here off.....is speaker compression

While I enjoy listening to intimate music, there’s nothing like the power of a full orchestra or rock band and, like you @mrdecibel, my system can reproduce most of that pretty effortlessly. It is an exciting experience.

Oftentimes there is more than one underlying cause of a system problem and you may be right that speaker compression is one of Jay’s problems. But it isn’t clear that those issues concern Jay at all. His recent focus seems to be on marketing the Stromtank battery products, but I think his efforts would be even more effective if he addressed these problems. And isn’t that part of the fun of hi-fi?

I appreciate the offer. I have no reason to not believe you. Just remember that each of our journeys is different and in order to truly know how good a system is, one needs to have something else to compare it to and i don’t mean via YouTube. Most folks don’t get out of their homes because of personal reasons but this also limits their knowledge and exposure of other great systems.

Have ANY OF YOU ever noticed i don’t compare my system to any of your systems? HAS ANYONE HERE EVER EVEN STOPPED TO THINK WHY? 🤔

On the other hand, there are many people with YouTube channels comparing their system to mine (let’s not go there) and i suppose it is an honor to be used as the "measuring stick " by some. But seriously, I’d like for ANYONE here to answer the question above.... HOPEFULLY at least ONE PERSON here understands why i don’t do such thing.

If I owned a 1mil system, I would expect " it " to hit peaks of over 100db. My system does it easily, and I never feel it is congested, too detailed, irritating....whatever. What Jay is describing, ime, and this will piss people here off.....is speaker compression. There, I said it ! Jay, come visit me.....you will hear a " different " musical perspective than what you are used to. You are not coming here to consult with me, although you will comment, dissect, praise, whatever ?, as this is what you do. My system delivers the attributes of music that " I feel are most important ". I would like to share it with you....and maybe even your audience....Always, MrD.

This, to me, is an amazing statement.  A very expensive and dialed in system that is not listenable at a loudness level that isn't extreme.  

Unless I am misunderstanding.  

That's a possibility.  

I, for what its worth (a lot to me, little to others) have found a system that does none of this unlistenable sheer clarity, at any/all level(s).  

I can't imagine changing a thing in this system.

Finally.  I'm there.  

82db = average listening levels for me. Once I go above that,  sheer clarity gets to be punishing.  

viber6

A system that costs almost $1 million should sound lifelike for that guitar at 60-80 dB. If the listener is compelled to boost the SPL by another 10-20 dB, then the system has poor lifelike quality with inferior resolution, OR he wants to abuse himself like drinking too much alcohol.

Let’s give the Jay the benefit of the doubt and rule out alcohol abuse. What I think is happening is what Jay calls "clarity" is actually HF distortion he’s getting as a result of AC problems. Those were detailed earlier in the thread, where there was discussion of issues such as having his audio gear share a 240VAC line with welding equipment or a/c. Jay couldn’t evade the discussion quickly enough, and that’s understandable as he promotes his battery solution to AC problems. What’s unfortunate is that he could correct his AC issues and still promote the Stromtank batteries, but as he’s made clear, he needs to "pick and choose" his approach.

In what little Jay revealed about his AC lines, it’s interesting to note what he didn’t mention: Grounding.

All that HF distortion is why Jay fears hearing "too much clarity" and why he would benefit from having a pro evaluate his electric install, starting at the service panel.

@viber6 I understand what you’re saying and a guitar at 60-80 db at what distance 1 meter? but several instruments with vocals added May exceed that at 1 meter. I doubt Jay is blowing his ears out at 90db not with Mágico anyway. He will have to let us know what level, although the point here is that with increased volume levels the Opus PC is not as good. Whatever that level is.

@rsf507 yes your right it is subjective making it difficult to ultimately determine. Too many variables and not enough info.

This is all so subjective, we know Jay likes to listen LOUD and I'd imagine most of us listen at about 78-82dB which again will change what you hear IMHO

Just something else to consider when listening.

carey1110,

You are right about all these recording engineer factors. I am mainly referring to natural, unamplified, unprocessed recordings such as classical and some jazz. But even in most of the processed recordings presented here, there are isolated relatively natural sections such as a guitar which can be referenced to the guitar heard live. Except for louder transients that last a few milliseconds, a natural guitar heard reasonably close has an average SPL of 60-80 dB. An audio system designed for high fidelity of tone and spatial qualities should also be played at natural volume levels. If the guitar is played at 90 dB, that is gross distortion. A system that costs almost $1 million should sound lifelike for that guitar at 60-80 dB. If the listener is compelled to boost the SPL by another 10-20 dB, then the system has poor lifelike quality with inferior resolution, OR he wants to abuse himself like drinking too much alcohol. Fine wine should be savored in sensible amounts, not hosed down the throat.

@viber6 you are only going to get the recording. The mics are placed at different distances all over the place then the recording engineer EQs,  adjusts and mixes the levels of each to what he thinks sounds good and natural, based on his live music experience. Trying to compare the recording to live is almost impossible unless you were there and even then you only get the perspective of your position. Such it is with tuning a system. You tune it to your personal preferences because you are not at the performance. Jay is giving you his preference from his perspective. Thats all you can do. Perhaps the system becomes bright, tipped up or congested when cranked. I’m guessing the instruments aren’t as clearly separated. I understand Jay said “too much going on” but sometimes you have to read into these subjective descriptions. Most audiophiles understand what he means here.

Points 1-4 are all desirable, but point 5 is invalid.  If the goal is natural life-like sound, 1-4 are descriptions of that.  Natural sound also means the correct listening level.  There is the true SPL of live music at a certain distance.  If the system's SPL is too soft, the full information isn't revealed; if it is louder than live, it is distorted in that way.  "Too much happening at once" means the added distortions from being too loud.  At the correct, natural SPL, there is NOT too much happening, but it is the highest level of clarity with the full information.  

Just inserted opus PCs on the dac

1. More clarity
2. About the same bass as stock PCs 
3. A Little more imaging
4. Tweeter seems a little more extended 
5. Less ability to crank up the volume due to too much happening at once 

This last presentation is more relaxed , looong listening sessions, all the bass is there and bigger soundstage than with opus speaker cables. I believe the opus powercords pin point the source and they let you know that you are playing digital. That is not the case with the Gryphon vanta speaker cables. You forget about the source with these cables. To regain more clarity, we can insert opus PC in the music server and maybe the dac again.

Agree with carey sounds fine with stock power cords but some details are missing. Via YT still hard to tell if the emotional aspects are still there on long term listening

The system may be a little more relaxed or natural but I’m not a fan of this one Jay and that’s ok. Seems to be less detailed with a hint of glare in the midrange. I just feel no improvement over the past very detailed sound you have had. Doesn’t have that see through transparency of the past which I like. That being said this sound is still a great sound on it own but when compared to some of the past recordings then I prefer the past one. Remember this is just a personal preference based on a YouTube presentation

I think contributor carey1110 should be recognized, congratulated, and applauded for stating:

"Sometimes I can’t handle the truth"

There is a lot of that going on in this thread from those who cling to approaches such as ignoring, rejecting, and violating even basic "scientific method" practices and protocals such as changing only one variable per test and that is actually fine! There is "truth" and there is how you "feel" and for many those "feelings" are what direct their decisions and that is justifiable for them. It is only when they object, complain, or criticize those who use a more disciplined approach that we see the result here which is leading no where because as others have stated their should be room for every one here and this is something I believe Jay knows completely.

Leave me your thoughts on this last video. There's ZERO AFTERMARKET POWERCORDS. All running through stromtank with the exceptions being  Boulder 3010 and 3060.

Gryphon Vanta Series Speaker Cables are fully settled and i think they are doing some good things. Let me know what you guys hear. 

I think of clarity in terms of information or details of the recording. To me the more “TRUTH” the more CLARITY”.  Sometimes I can’t handle the truth…..of some recordings tho.  So if it’s that bad I just move on to something better. There more and more great recordings coming out than there used to be.