WC,
Your 10 favorable observations on the Lampi could still be explained by omission of the ref 10 in the chain. Many people note that all electronics impose veiling and loss of information, so there is a big advantage in eliminating any stage you can, provided you have enough gain. Also, as almarg said, the impedance mismatch between the output of the ref 10 and the input of the Block could be handicapping the overall performance. A good rule is that the input impedance of the amp should be greater than 10x the output impedance of the preamp, otherwise HF will be rolled off. I still believe that for your overall system synergy, the ARC ref 6 would give you better snap/sparkle than the ref 10, while still giving enough tube "magic." You never heard the ref 6 with the Neo, and you probably will appreciate it now.
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4425,
Since you and I have lots of experience, I agree that it is best to draw conclusions after living with a component for a sufficient period of time. However, usually my first impressions are approximately correct, which are confirmed later. If the differences are very subtle, it takes much longer to draw the right conclusions.
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i agree with you viber. That said, there are components that you don't get to immediately feel/hear what they are doing until you sit down for a few hours.
i have ran across components where i sat down and i did not feel like "wow" right at that moment, but rather hours later. i feel like there is a slight adjustment that your brain/ears need to go through in order to tell you the full story of what is being heard. |
There is a thread on another forum that explains that the ARC Ref6 pre has a very cheap ( 15$) volume pot. A buyer has had reliability redondant troubles with it. He had to replaced the pot 2 times...
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We are still waiting with baited breadth on the Lampizator review used as a preamp. Inquiring minds want to know. My popcorn is ready.
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I've tried using my Lampi Big 7 as a preamp connecting directly to my Luxman 590AXII's amp section, but I still prefer using the Big 7 (as DAC only) with Luxman as the integrated amp. My impression of the Lampi preamp (i.e. volume control) is that it's good, detailed, and neutral, but Luxman's preamp sounds fuller, richer, and more musical to my ears. |
The Pacific is in a higher league, it should be much better at driving power amps.
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techno, I think you are right. Pacific should be much better at everything it does. |
I typed a long follow-up but lost it somehow. Will try and keep this short. Next is to stop sound bouncing uncontrolled between the side walls. Absorption panels built similar to the ceiling absorber are good at the first reflection points. The OC703 is supplied in sheets of 2ft by 4ft so this is a good size to build them and cover in a pretty fabric that the wife chooses. 2 panels per side usually do it. The third axis is between front and back wall. Dispersion is good here with some smaller absorption panels used to fine tune the room. Then the bass. All rooms NEED bass traps and lots. Can't overdo bass traps so don't be shy. BUT they must be proper basstraps. Google DIY superchunk bass traps. Anything less is a waste. Somebody posted links to some silly foam things that can not possibly absorb the long wavelengths we are dealing with. Bass traps being broadband absorbers will also absorb higher freq. possibly making the room too dead so plastic sheeting or similar can be used to cover the outside of the traps which will reflect the upper freq. but still work for the bass. viber6 mentioned this being an art which it is not. Measurement is your friend and free downloads like Holm Impulse or REW will provide graphic results of treatment by way of cumulative spectral decay known as waterfall plots. It is possible to measure the room before and after treatment and overlay the plots and see the results. I use Omnimic from Parts Express. While I do not know the size of your room the aim here is to achieve aT60 across all freq. The CSD's will show which freq. require more or less absorption. This is the time it takes for sound to decay by 60dB. Just science and not black art. Bass freq. do the most damage when thundering around the room. Some reflected bass will combine constructively or destructively producing peaks and nulls, the nulls being the worst. Those are bass notes missing and can't be EQ'd back. Not even by a Rane :) The peaks and their harmonics can be tamed by EQ BUT the Rane can't control the overlong decay. Bass builds up in corners so that is where to place the traps. The front wall's 2 corners where it meets the side walls is a good place to start. Run them vertically from floor to ceiling. But any corners work. In addition to the front 2 try one running horizontally on the back wall where it meets the ceiling. Dear WC I urge you to give this careful thought. If you are pressed for time and do not wish to build or measure get advice from a pro. Maybe one in your area or contact this fella. http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html Please read some or all of this because no amount of cables or component change will bring more to the party. The transformation really does need to be experienced to understand the huge amount of fun, detail and decongestion.Winer also has a forum where you can read about results from people who have seen, or is it heard the light. Regards and enjoy the Lampi. I heard Fikus' Gen 4 way back and thought it was great. My friend whose ears I trust has just changed to a Denafrips Terminator from a Chord Dave. |
@lemonhaze,
I really enjoyed your sharing of the room treatment. Having not had a room for many years when I was raising kids for a good system, I get how important it is to have a good room size and dimension.
To get the proper sound in a good room with sound treatment will send your system to the next level.
I hear some say that some of the rooms that they auditioned systems with their dealers have been less than stellar. And I don't doubt it. But if you think that it's ok for all kinds of reflections coming from all kinds of places is going to give you the best of your room, I would say that you are delusional.
@lemonhaze has spoken, and he is right on the money with sound treatments. I can only say that I have heard many a good system, and it was not full of bare walls or floors. And the sound out of those speakers reached my ears in a way stereo sound was intended (with no reverberation). If you are lucky enough to have a wife that let's you go to town with high end audio, it's in your best interest to start looking at getting those reflections and reverberations out of your room. @lemonhaze, thanks for you insight to others with your prose and knowledge of sound treatment. Sound treatment will change your system for the better. And isn't what this journey it about ( the absolute sound.).
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Alright boys, grab your popcorn and sit down. Here are my thoughts on the lampizator pacific using wireworld silver 7 single ended cables connected to my block audios:
1. More bottom end than using the ref10 in the middle
2. Great level of detail & clarity
3. Long decays from instruments
4. A little more (a tad more detail at times)
5. Smaller soundstage than ref10
6. Same level of musicality as if using the ref10 in the middle
7. No fatigue regardless of how hard you push the volume
These are my impressions of the lampizator with my "ok" rca cables. This is why i want to try the platinum 8 or gold 8 interconnects this week to see how that enhances it. The ref10 adds a much larger presentation, it tones down the extra bottom end which helps my neoliths not get too "bottom end" happy. The ref 10 essentially adds the finishing touches to the lampizator dac. It adds a much larger presentation with deeper soundstages plus more volume of course. That said, IF I DID NOT HAVE the ref10, i would be perfectly happy using the lampizator as my preamp. It is truely amazing as a preamp and possibly beats many many preamps out there. I am not done with the lampizator as a preamp. I still need to try different cables and see how much closer i can get to the ref10 (if that is possible).
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WC,
I’d give the ARC 10 staying in the loop the nudge when all is said and done. I like the idea of changing SE cables and seeing where it goes with the Lampi as the preamp too. The Lampi looks like a real keeper. I’m sure the MSB is great, but the Lampizator Pacific has some of the best parts known to man inside. And it has TUBES.
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At it’s msrp, the Ref10 should have included a sota dac module inside it from the moment ARC put it on market...
Other makers have done it...Hegel, Lyngdorf, Naim, Classe, etc.
Take for example the Mac C2600. Tubes, sota ( Wadia di322 based) dac module, and phono module included for 7k. Talk about value... |
Does the lampizator pacific need to break in, or is it a used item that already has many hours on it? Even if used, it may need a few days up to a week to settle in. Anyway, just curious.
Dave
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WC,
The Lampi as you described presents more detail, clarity, although as I mentioned it is hard to tell whether this is due to elimination of the ref 10 in the chain or whether the Lampi dac is more detailed than the Lux dac. Put in the ref 10 with both the Lampi and Lux to draw the proper conclusions.
Beyond this test, it is obvious that an accurate, detailed component will have the accurate soundstage of the recording. The inflated soundstage of the ref 10 is euphonic distortion similar to that of many tube stages. You like it, but it is not accurate. Here is a great example of what 4425 said--live with the Lampi bypassing the ref 10, to get yourself to increasingly appreciate Lampi's more accurate qualities. Don't sell the Lampi for a long time. A good test would be utilizing the more accurate ref 6 (compared to the ref 10) with the Lux, to compare with the Lampi without ref 6. This would allow you to evaluate the tube electronics of the Lampi which seems more detailed than the tube electronics of the ref 10, but might be stiff competition with the tube electronics of the ref 6.
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Like always, viber you are right on.
I would even go further. Most top end system owners I know have eliminated the preamp from the chain. The best dacs , like the Lampi Pacific, can drive sota amplifiers directly.
Same think with vinyl. The best dacs, like the tube based Lampi Pacific or APL DSD MR, can sound as organic and natural as turntables. Without the cons.
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techno,
Once again, you are going off of the "he said/she said" mentality.
what experience DO YOU HAVE with dacs driving amps directly?
Reading a book doesn’t make you brighter than the person who knows how to do job because they have hands on experience. In fact, experience is preferred over someone who does not have any, but has a degree. It is the same here.... no different.. This is not my first rodeo trying to get a dac to sound better than my preamp. i tried doing this with the ps audio directstream back when i owned it. It never sounded better than my preamps at that point in time. I wish this dac killed my ref10 so i can do exactly what you said i should do: sell the ref10. Why would i want to have that money strapped in my system if the dac was murdering my ref10?? Believe me, i would love for this dac to do just that (beat my ref 10), but right now it is not doing that. |
One suggestion regarding your plan to evaluate the Lampi direct with the use of better cables... if you find that they elevate the performance to a new level I think you should then try those cables with the Ref10 since they are likely to similarly improve its sound.
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Sooner or later, it will be time to let go of the Ref10 and all extra cables attached to it ( which are just messing with signal integrity after all) . You might as well divorce from it now while it still has a very good resale value. Think future...you’ve just heard what the Lampi Pacific can do...and it’s still not broken in...and your still not using sota xlr cables...and you still haven’t upgraded tubes...
Ref 10 is toasted already. It should go where it had always belonged, in it’s double box ready to ship to a new owner. |
@techno_dude,
The Lampi uses only SE cables, no XLR.
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I must support WC's experience with preferring the DAC into the Line Stage vs. the DAC straight into the amp(s).
Ten or so years ago I bought an APL Denon CD player with tube output. Contrary to what the designer told me more than once, I much preferred the DAC output into the Line Stage (I don't remember if this was the Aesthetix Callisto Sig or Aria WV5 at the time). The degree of spatial cues and decays alone were significantly greater with the Line Stage in the loop and with the player's volume control bypassed. I could sense a little more detail on the top without the Line Stage but this was easy to give up vs. the rest of what was lost with the DAC only. I tried this again over the course of a few weeks and never went back to using it straight into the amp.
Do our Line Stages have a better capability to drive the amp, or is the volume control of greater precision than in the DAC, or, or, or .... ? Most of us cannot likely answer this question, but what I heard was not subtle. And so the "purists" can rant all they want, but I know what I heard. And WC knows what he hears and so preaching to him to remove his Line Stage from the system indeed shows that the one saying this has no experience with such an experiment. |
Jafox, I concur with you and agree with WC going through the Ref 10. As an owner of the ARC Ref 10 and a dCS Vivaldi 2.0 DAC, going through the Ref. 10 is magical, and improves what comes out of the DAC taking me into the recording studio or live performance. The Ref 10’s ability to through a wide and deep soundstage draws you into the music and why Ref. 10 owners maintain them in our systems.
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The offended lost no time to defend the overpriced ARC. Sure, most dacs and even costly prestigious ones have poor variable output stage. DcS and Ps Audio have both pretty basic digital atténuation.
But the best dacs have everything to omit the need for an additional preamp. APL DSD MR is one of them.
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Jonaiken,
this is exactly how I feel about my ref10 right now and you have one hell of a dac too. I’m not going to lie, I would not mind if my Lampizator bested my ref10 so I can sell my ref10 but that’s not the case.... there’s a reason why I can’t get to sell my ref10 and I’ve parted ways with other incredible equipment such as the Rowland 925s, Luxman components, etc etc.
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techno_dude may have an ulterior motive and actually wants to buy the Ref10 from WC, that's why he's so strongly encouraging its sale. ;~) I similarly believed that simplifying things by eliminating an active line stage in a digital system would be clearly superior, but my experience over the years has proven otherwise. An average line stage may add distortion and some dynamic restriction, but a suitable quality line stage can provide a level of musical realism that is lacking without it. Of course it all depends on system matching with the specific source and amp combination.
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Lol. I think he wants to replace his McIntosh preamp with the ref10 haha
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WC,
Sorry, I may have misinterpreted your evaluations. OK, the Lampi as a preamp doesn't kill the ref 10, but the Lampi is just a little better in the detail department. Since the ref 6 is more accurate and detailed than the ref 10, despite what techno_dude mentioned about the crummy volume control pot of the ref 6, I am guessing that the ref 6 + Lux DAC or ref 6 + Lampi would be real competition for the Lampi preamp + DAC. There are very accurate tube stages and there are euphonic tube stages. The Lampi and ref 6 are in the accurate camp, the ref 10 is in the euphonic camp. These are relatively small differences compared to a Boulder SS vs a syrupy old school Conrad Johnson tube amp. See if you can get the ref 6 again to do these trials. At that point, you might be ready to let go of the ref 10 and keep the ref 6 for your preamp needs for multiple source inputs such as radio, turntable (gasp!). I know you are not interested in turntables at this time, but my experience has shown MUCH MORE variety/variability in sound character among cartridges, tables, tonearms than with several DAC's I have tried, although I don't have any experience with any expensive DAC's. Koetsu cartridges are lush, Lyra are fast/detailed, etc.
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I don't think techno_dude has any ulterior motives--he just has very clear-cut opinions and advice. He knows that WC won't sell anything at other than fair market prices.
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I think with the right cables, the Lampizator Pacific could be as good as the Ref10.
I will just say that Wireworld cables would not be MY choice. |
WC, I may have missed your mentioning it, but are the Wireworld cables you use to connect the Ref10 to the Blocks balanced or unbalanced?
If they are balanced, perhaps one factor (probably among several) contributing to what the Ref10 brings to the table when inserted between the Lampi and the Blocks is simply that the Blocks may sound better when provided with balanced inputs than when provided with unbalanced inputs. I note that the manual for the Blocks specifically recommends the balanced inputs "for best sound performance." Which of course cannot be done with the Lampi connected directly to the amps.
And if they are unbalanced, trying balanced cables between the Ref10 and the Blocks at some point would certainly seem to be in order. Not only because it may be more optimal for the Blocks, but also because it may be beneficial with respect to what I mentioned earlier about the marginal impedance compatibility between the Ref10 and the Blocks.
Regards,
-- Al
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almarg,
My experience is that unbalanced cables don’t sound much different from balanced cables of the same design, all other factors being equal. I would take the manual’s opinion of "best sound performance" as just another opinion. I think you are absolutely correct about the supreme importance of impedance compatibility. If balanced cables offer a better impedance compatibility, that is the main factor in getting better sound without HF rolloff. My experience with cartridge loading is relevant here. Loading a moving coil cartridge into the highest impedance, say 47 K Ohms produces the most extended HF and detail, although euphonically oriented people have said there is HF peakiness and overshoot with high loading. They like loading at low 100 ohms or so, which produces more mellow sound. Many phono stages offer lots of loading choices for flavoring the sound to one’s preferences, but I would take preamps with only 47 K ohm loading for maximum detail, preferring that the designer spend the money on better circuit design rather than loading choices.
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@lemonhaze
Enjoyed you post and link (written by Ethan Winer) on acoustical room treatments. I have found that by using philosophies like his in my listening room has greatly improved my listening experience.
I use bass traps with reflective side facing the listener on front wall at corners, a combination of absorbers and diffusors on the back wall behind the listener and absorber panels on side walls at 1st and 2nd reflections. A few years ago I was only using absorber panels which resulted in a somewhat dead sound. Last year with the advice of an acoustical engineer I introduced bass traps and diffusor panels....Now my room sounds great, more natural and far from that dreaded over used absorber panel dead sound.
Would love to see some photos of your room and the treatments you use.
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Musical fidelity titan has arrived. Can’t get it out of the box by myself. Power supply chassis is 170 lbs. wireworld gold 8 and platinum 8 rca are in the house as well.
This weekend I’m having a shoot out of the block audios vs musical fidelity titan and lampizator (with new better rcas) vs ref10.
Who’s in ? |
Sounds like fun. Wish I lived closer!
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Musical fidelity titan: the largest, biggest, most expansive soundstage I’ve ever heard in my life. 3 football fields put together. Devastating swings of air like a tornado in Oklahoma. |
MF Titan seems a bargain at around 12k used. That if someone needs that much power. Most people won’t, and a more simple design bringing more purity will be the key to very good sound.
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And the Block Audio amps came tumbling down. Long live the king.
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Glad to see the massive power of the Titan is being put to good use. The Neolith is made to take the power. Now for the 1st time you have an amp to see what the power brings. Whether a small power amp brings more to the table at lower volumes, or not. Some of us relish the ability to turn it up and hear that roar. Even if is only for a few seconds, that HOLY MOTHER OF GOD experience is an adrenaline rush, not unlike driving a supercar or supercharged muscle car with your foot to the floor. Nice job!! You deserve to unleash the Kraken with these Neoliths. Not to say that this is the end all of amplification, but anyone with a speaker like this should experience 1,000 w/ch or more coming out of it. Why? BECAUSE YOU CAN.
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I’ll go on record and say it now: musical fidelity titan has the biggest, boldest soundstage I’ve ever heard. If you lack soundstage, forget Every amp I’ve listed here. Musical fidelity is #1 in terms of soundstage height, width. Enough said.
this type of discovery makes me happy because I get to experience what some low key brands are capable of while the entire crowd of audiophiles are investing in the dumb brands that I won’t go into naming in order to not hurt anyone’s feelings but you all know what Amplifier brands I’m talking about. |
A lower priced amp that beats the more expensive Block Audio monos.
I have a feeling we ´re going to read about synergy again......🤫 Let’s not offend anybody...
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Ref6 vs. Ref10 is no contest. And it is not supposed to be. Ref10 is bigger, better, more. It is not euphonic. I've heard both preamps many times and last heard the Ref10 two weekends ago.
@whitecamaross
Can't wait to read more about the new King in town.
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WC,
Be careful about being wowed by soundstage dimensions. Euphonic components have inflated soundstages and bloated images that go along with that. This is not accuracy. Tell us about the core qualities of the music, which are tone, LF and HF extension, detail and information retrieval at all freq, rhythmic snap with transient response. I suspect that the Block has more detail, which correlates with a truer soundstage than the Titan. I'm sure your further listening will evaluate these other aspects rather than singling out the soundstage.
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Stay tuned for more impressions of this monster of an amp. This amp makes me feel sad for those of you who are stuck with boutique names that are praised by magazines. It is such s sleeper of an amp that makes your jaw drop. If it only had a name plate of a mainstream brand on it then it would be flying off the shelves...
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How is Musical Fidelity not a boutique brand ? There are quite a few reviews of the Titan online also.
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Because musical fidelity is not moving product at the same rate as the boutique super hero brands do. I can sit here and retire with what I’m hearing right now and not miss any other amp I’ve owned. Does this mean this amp bests other amps I’ve owned? I guess you’ll need to keep reading my thread to find out... |
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I can sit here and retire with what I’m hearing right now and not miss any other amp I’ve owned. That's the greatest GREATEST feeling. I congratulate you for all your efforts and trials to finally find an amp that gets you to this satisfaction. I am there with the Line Stage, Turntable setup, amps (CAT JL-3's but I would like to scale down in tubes). However, I'm still itchy for one last phono stage update and also the DAC. Hopefully you can focus your attention on some different cable auditions, continue your DAC efforts and get an acoustics expert to your home for some advice. But I think you're close. And congratulations again. You sound very happy. And please sell me your Plinius 103 as I need two of these when I don't want to fire up the CATs for music and for serious HT usage. |
Lol thanks jafox.
Honestly, I wish each and every one of you could come over this weekend to be part of this shootout. You all would find your own songs in tidal which you are familiar with and play them so that you know what sounds good and what doesn’t. I think everyone would go home thinking what their move would be. I’d even tell you all to bring any amp you want to hear so you can compare.
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i Was going to hold this but I’ll share it. I’ve started to negotiate a pair of pass labs best amps: xs300.
No im not buying them for 20k dollars. They are 85,000 dollars and would be the most expensive amps I’ve owned. Not sure if this deal will come to life but right now the conversation has started and the starting asking price is enough to buy a new bmw. I’ll retire pass labs if I end up owning this amp. I will be able to close the line complete from my wish list. All I want to try are those xs300s. Nothing else interests me from them.
It will take a massive amount of $ to do it but I was born to do this. The last pair of xs300s sold for over 50k. Yes, nothing will come cheap at the level that I’m at. I’m well aware of it. I will need to sacrifice some equipment (momentum integrated, Diablo, Plinius sa103, etc etc) in order to put this deal together.
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How much of that soundstage has to do with the Lampizator ?
Have you been using the REF 10 or running from the Lampi without REF 10 ?
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