Musetec (LKS) MH-DA005 DAC

@yyzsantabarbara I recall you mentioning 005 not working well with RAAL headphone amp. What is it about this pairing that you don't like, on paper it would seem good match, nice tubes and can run in various modes.

@sns It is too smooth on the RAAL VM-1a amp. This amp and both SR1a + CA-1a headphones can scale amazing heights in sonic quality. With the 005 it sounds way too smooth and lifeless. The Benchmark DAC3B sounds so much better. The VM-1a + DAC3B is not what I call smooth. Realistic is a more apt description. The SR1a is really a miniature 2 channel system, not really headphones.

I lent my 005 DAC to Danny at RAAL-Requisite (one of the 2 owners) for 1 month since I wanted his opinion, given mine was not too favorable. He has an incredible ear and is a former musician. In fact, I recently read a 1 page blurb on Danny’s listening skills on the 6moons web site. So I had good intuition on this. Danny even came to my home and heard my office system (for another project) and gave me some great critiques that I addressed to my benefit.

SR1a (6moons.com)

So it is not just my amateur ears that had an issue with the 005. Of course, I love this DAC on my 2-channel gear and own 2 of them.

Wonder if this some technical issue, for instance impedance mismatch. Certainly doesn't sound like voicing issue as I can't imagine anyone describing 005 as too smooth and lifeless. On the other hand, I can imagine 005 being described  as  excessive in those two qualities.

I'd bet adding the Serene pre will improve things greatly, 005 really requires nice pre to reach potential. Fact is I'm still searching for full potential. I received my new ATX board based music server Friday, expecting JCAT Optimio S ATX Monday, should have close to Taiko Extreme performance music server with this setup. Expecting 005 to be perfectly at home in this company.

I do not think the Serene preamp will be much of a difference from the Benchmark LA4, which is exactly what I want to achieve, The Serene has an extra RCA input that I can use. The plan was to get a second LA4 but I am curious about the "better measuring and organic sounding Serene".

The LA4 and Serene are not used with VM-1a headphone amp. The VM-1a has a preamp and amp section already built-in. The Serene and LA4 can used with my SR1a when connected to my RAAL SR1a Amp Interface box. I need to unhook my 2-channel speaker cables when I do this but I have SpeakON cables for both the speakers and the Adapter Box, so it is simple.

Ok, didn't realize RAAl had preamp section.

good morning everyone

I just bought a Musical Fidelity M8sPRE (https://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/m8series/m8spre), after careful research it seemed to me the best preamp to match our beloved DAC.

tonight I'll plug it into my system and listen to MUSETEC...

I'll update you soon with photos and first impressions

As long as there’s so much talk about preamps I’ll add my $.02.

Within the last two or three years I’ve gone from a fine 2 piece Sim Audio to a Schiit Freya+ to a Rogue RP-7. I have found that what works for me is that the preamp is the perfect place to put some tubes into the system. And some tube rolling can help to tune things up a bit. I am very happy with the Rogue as it seems about as neutral as a tube preamp can be and it has great ergonomics. I discovered when I had the Schiit that I cannot live without a balance control.

@melm 

but this preamp does not degrade your signal?

how do you feel with listening to high resolution music?

in particular can you hear the difference between listening to a CD or a Flac 24 bit 192 kHz?

on the manufacturer's website the following values ​​are reported:

- Frequency response: 1Hz – 100KHz +/- 1 dB
- THD: <0.1%
- Gain line stage: 14 dB (20dB XLR)
- Rated output: 1V
- Maximum output: 30V
- Output impedance: <10 Ohms

@americanspirit

When I wrote my last post I thought that the reputations of the Schiit and Rogue preamps were sufficiently well established that I failed to say the following. Remember that my personal judgments are, as best as I can, against live unamplified music. The inexpensive Schiit preamp with tubes was a very clear improvement over the fine transistor one. It was then that I discovered that I MUST have a balance control, which has gone out of favor on many excellent preamps. So I went to the far more expensive Rogue--I needed balanced outputs as well. It proved to be an even greater improvement than was the first change. A testament perhaps to the value of the Rogue’s extremely strong power supply (LPS, of course) in delivering sound quality. I am very happy with the Rogue listening to all recorded music. That should answer question 2.

No doubt you are focusing on the THD number. First I would refer you to all the discussion here (and elsewhere) about the uselessness of the industry type of specification next to the experience of actually listening. One of the problems with the published THD number is that harmonic distortion may take on different shapes--all hidden in the industry-standard number. Generally in units with tubes, the major factor here is that the THD is principally in the second harmonic.

It has long been a controversy in audio. Does the slight bit of second harmonic that is ordinarily introduced by tubes "distort" the sound so as to make it less like the real thing, live music? Or does it restore an element of the sound that is ordinarily diminished slightly in the recording and reproducing process with the result of sounding more like the real thing? And so one can choose solid state or tubes conforming to your answers here, and I chose a tube preamp that is know for having that fine attribute of tubes, but mildly so. I believe that answers your first question. We touched upon a similar issue a while back when discussing feedback in solid state components.

To answer the third question directly. I don’t spend much time on the kind of comparison you ask about. But for a short while when I was experimenting with streaming I was receiving Tidal and Amazon Music at the same time and testing the streams with MusicScope. A series of Shostakovitch symphonic recordings with the Boston Symphony Orchestra under Nelsons was the being released. Tidal had them at 16/44 and Amazon had them at 24/48. While the differences were subtle, they were sufficiently distinct.

@melm 

dear
my questions weren't provocative, just sincere curiosity.

I asked you because before choosing the preamp I performed several tests using the components made available to me by various passionate friends like us.

the most trivial was the comparison between DA005 + MC152 vs DA005 + M8sPRe + MC152 and obviously there was no comparison.

the second was between Lumin U2 MINI + DA005 + MC152 vs DA005 + M8sPRe + MC152 and also in this case the level of details, the three-dimensionality, the dynamic range were in favor of the configuration with preamplifier (the LEEDH control was active)

the third was between DA005 + C22 mkV + MC152 vs DA005 + M8sPRe + MC152
and it is in this case (with the tube preamp) that I no longer distinguished the difference in listening to the same track at 16 bit 44 kHz and 24 bit 192 kHz

@americanspirit If you're still looking for a preamp, you might want to try a Hegel P20. I use it with the 005 and the McIntosh MC152. I found it was better than the McIntosh C47, more dynamic, detailed, and timbrely accurate.

@dbb 

thanks for the advice, I had considered buying the Hegel P30A but then the choice fell on the Musical Fidelity M8sPRE.

@americanspirit  I have a P30 which I use with a McIntosh MC402.  It's  very nice, especially with natural timbre. I hear the P30A won't be in the US until November or December. How does the M8sPre sound with the Mac?

@americanspirit 
I don't think you can use the Mac C22 as an example by which to judge the sound performance of all preamps with tubes.  I know that there are those who drool in front of the visual attraction of Macs.  However, the build of the C22 and its predecessor twin C70 leaves a lot to be desired.  There's a lot of empty space inside the chassis, only two of its six tubes support the preamp function, and it relies on chip op amps in its signal path. If I'm not mistaken all its caps are generic.  Typical for Macs there are no reviews to be found and information about their insides is very hard to come by. 

@sns is the tube guru in these parts and it would be interesting to hear from him on the general topic of the resolution potential of tubed pres.

Thanks @melm  I do love my tube pre, Coincident Statement MkII, 101D dht, and I do believe tube pre's and tube amps for that matter, are great match for 005. My take on 005 is it really excels with just the slightest added bit of warmth, harmonic development only tubes can provide. Doesn't need more than a touch of that tube warmth so the more neutral, modern sound tube amps/pre's just right. Also, modern top flight tube equipment needs not give up anything to SS in terms of resolution/transparency. This especially true with balanced pre, noise floor lower with balanced circuits, cables.

As far as the Musical Fidelity pre, I purchased MF M2SI integrated some years ago in a different setup, thought it very nice musical piece. Hit above its weight against a much more expensive class A SS amp. I too am not impressed with Mac, middling sound for the cost.

Update on new server, have JCAT Optimo S ATX LPS in house after 2 weeks wait for shipping out of Poland. Have new setup running but haven't listened yet, Euphony OS and Stylus player steep learning curve, this thing has ability to run direct from RAM, lowest latency (jitter) possible vs SSD. This setup should really test 005 potential, a number of individuals built virtually same server (minus the Optimo LPS) after having gone through previous lesser custom build servers over the years. Each considered this was best custom server they could build. Each of these individuals purchased Taiko Extreme server directly after this particular build, $35k last time I looked.

@dbb 

how it sounds ... beautifully, the M8sPRE is totally oversized in terms of the power section and output stage ... combined with its transparency (pure class A) and channel separation (dual mono) gave me some very strong emotions in listening.

I live in Italy, if you happen to be on vacation I'll let you listen to it :-)

in the meantime, I am sending you the updated photos of the plant

https://ibb.co/k56yRg7

https://ibb.co/kQ18ntj

.@sns

I too am not impressed with Mac, middling sound for the cost.

Not an uncommon sentiment. Better is achievable in the tube preamplifier realm. You’ve chosen very well with your Coincident Statement Line stage.
Charles

@charles1dad We both did!

dear friends, as a next upgrade I would like to improve the interface via pc as a source for liquid music.

I would like to start with a low cost solution, such as an iFi Zen Stream between the PC and the MUSETEC.

have you tested this solution? do you have any low cost optional tips?

@americanspirit I'm not sure what you mean with "Liquid Music" so this post may be meaningless. However, I have Roon on my PC which controls the iFi Zen Stream going into the Musetec. It sounds great!

@boxer12 

liquid music means all music transmitted by files, eg. FLAC, DSD, ...
i also have ROON installed on my workstation ...

@americanspirit 

There's been such an explosion in "interfaces" as you call them that asking for a low cost option is like asking for a low cost DAC.  You'll get a boatload of suggestions, basically as what various people have settled on.  The Musetec is good enough to warrant something very good up front.  You might also look on the threads here focusing just on that.

My own experience is that I was using a laptop running JRiver and its remote app Eos  directly into the DAC by USB.  That was enough to impress everyone at my house that I could run music from my phone or pad.  Quite by accident I discovered that my Oppo 105 could be used (with some limitations) as a DLNA interface with its coax out to the DAC.  That made a significant SQ improvement.  Getting the computer out of the direct path yields real benefits.  Based on that experience I think any reputable interface that gets the computer out of the way either by going directly or by DLNA will give you a worthwhile result.  

I next tried an SOtM SMS-200 with its wall wart also running as a DLNA interface.  Surprisingly, that didn't do much better than the Oppo, though it might have improved with a better power supply.  I finally wound up with an SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo that I found on the used market.  I power it with an  Sbooster power supply.  That was a very substantial upgrade in sound and I am very happy with the results.  I run my own files using the JRiver Eos program on phone or pad and do streaming of Qobuz or Tidal, also through the SOtM, simply by opening BubbleUPnP on the same phone or pad.  

I've never seen the usefulness of Roon for my own listening.

The SOTM is nice streamer at it's price, was surpassed in my setup by Sonore OpticalRendu, but then talking aprox twice the price. Both need nice linear power supply to perform optimally.

Now using custom build streamer, sound quality incredible! 005 compatible and not out of place with best streamers out there. This dac not only great value, but simply excellent at any price and in any system. I'd have to say 005 is both best value and objectively high performing component I've experienced in thirty years as audiophile.

@sns 

Always in a learning mode, I'd love to hear more about the "custom build streamer" that you're using.  It's great to know that as you've gone higher and higher in the streaming realm, the 005 can keep up.

@melm - Details of the custom build streamer that @sns referenced can be found in the comments of his system page: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8606

@melm , @bill_k correct, I think most everything there. The one issue with custom build like this is the bespoke nature of the total build including power supply. Vast majority of this not applicable to most if not all members here. To try to put this build in some perspective, last comparison prior to original builder selling, preferred this  to Aurender W20SE, a subjective opinion, but there it is. This comparison at time when build was in earlier configuration, lesser processor and power supply much less quality than my JCAT Optimo. Original builder/owner only sold after comparing to Taiko Extreme, $35k, which he ended up purchasing.

So, based on this and a handful of other builders with similar or exact same build and their estimations of sound quality, this custom build right up there with best. If anyone interested, the long and winding road covering this build and others can be found at Audiophilestyle forum, one thread is 765 pages or so at last count, so pretty dense reading.

At this point, I have yet to try vast majority of possible combos of music players and end points, choices include all Roon, Roon with embedded HQPlayer, Roon with embedded Stylus EP (Euphony's proprietary music player), all HQPlayer with Roon endpoint, all Stylus, Stylus with Roon endpoint. Entire custom build runs on Euphony operating system, this is proprietary OS based off Linux running on Windows ATX motherboard, generally running at less than 1% of available processing power which means this operating system has only the most essential processes running, means low noise, higher resolution.

At this point I can only say the resolution of this setup is incredible! I've been experiencing sensation of live performers in room for a few years now, but the added detail of this streamer has heightened this sensation. The noise floor has dropped down to the extent I now hear the lowest level details, voices are just amazingly lifelike, the smallest inflections and breath now heard. And all performers and instruments are increasingly in their own place on soundstage, individualized to the extent of much more replicating what one hears at live performance. And then also much more relaxed, sense of ease, more analog like presentation, which tells me jitter level much lower. One of the major design principles of this streamer build was paying great attention to latency which results in much lower jitter. As mentioned above I have yet to try most combos of music players, saving optimal music player combo for last! Also, still not close to optimizing usb as I'm using motherboard usb vs. JCAT USB board I plan on purchasing.

As for how all this applicable to 005, none of this wonderful performance would be possible without it! I still hear no sins of commission or omission. 005 not suffering a single bit with being more exposed, sometimes components suffer with greater exposure, defects previously unheard become heard, 005 has only increasingly excelled.

The fact is I'm so entirely happy with my digital setup, I'm finished, not worrying about $3k dac not being expensive enough. I've now turned my attention to the vinyl setup, already have some items on order, going to be major undertaking to get this up to digital.

We haven’t seen much ESS Saber bashing on this thread lately. An interesting fact, though, is that the $34,000 Ideon Absolute DAC uses a single ES9038PRO chip. Its advertising stresses its power supply and analog circuit. Where have I heard that before? TAS says, "this is a world-class digital-to-analog converter, and even something of a bargain"

TAS is where I go for bargains.

@melm - I think the ESS bashing was due to the r2r craze, which seems to be slowing down a bit lately. 

@yyzsantabarbara

Since the reviewer says he bought the review DAC the real "bargain" comes a few months down the road when it is up for sale at about $27,000 if he follows the road of so many reviewers. So you’ll probably have another chance. He’d clear about $7K.

After the publication of information that some of the parameters stated by the manufacturer for the MH DA005 do not match the measurements, there was talk of possible compensation from the manufacturer. It pleased me at the time, is there anything new? Was this information true? Alternatively, what is the manufacturer's current official position on this inconvenience?

@balja 
I do not recall any such talk.  It was the position of the maker that if a component improved the sound it would be incorporated into the DAC even at the expense of measurements.  This was followed by a good deal of discussion here about sound vs. measurements. The consensus IIRC was that the only thing that mattered was the sound.  This was the same with tubes and vinyl, for example that could sound better notwithstanding better measurements from solid state and digital.  There are many examples of components that measure very well but have sound that is sterile and uninvolving.  The only adjustment, I think, was a refund from the American retailer to the customer who, by the way, never took possession of the DAC or listened to it.

In any event you wrote of your pleasure with the DAC over several months.  Eventually you came to replace the Furutech IEC with a Schaffner FN 9260-1-06 IEC which includes a filter.  You wrote that it added some holographic effect.  Some of us use tubes in the other parts of our systems to get that.  I assume you're on 220 volts; is that right?  Are you still using the filter?  Any other tips?

From the experience gained with the Audio GD dacs we have developed a very special USB cable that does not carry the 5 Volt power supply so as not to disturb the internal power supply of the Amanero USB acquisition module.

has anyone experimented with this solution on the MUSETEC?

Tape up both ends of the +5v line with electrical tape. If you only tape one end it can act as an antenna and attract RFI/EMI.

Don't tape the -ve because it'll be earth.

I have used several different USB cables. Most contain all four wires but one was made without No.1, carrying the 5 Volts. On occasion I have blocked the 5 Volt wire. Blocked or not there is no current in the wire when connected to the Musetec. I have never noticed any difference by blocking the wire. As always YMMV. I agree that wire No. 4, the ground should be connected. It is necessary for the "handshake." There are purists that have a switch to disconnect No. 4 after the connection is made for it is no longer necessary. Some others put a resistor on No. 4.

It is, I think, always preferable as here for the USB function within the DAC to have its own internal source of good power. Besides its dependable power source, it can give the user an extra degree of freedom in selecting a USB cable, in that the cable is freed of the powering function which is sometimes thought to compromise digital performance. Hence all the workarounds keeping the 5V line separate from the others.

Yesterday I modified a ridiculously expensive USB cable (it's the cable I used for the printer) by eliminating the power cord.

I used it as a link from the iMac (with ROON) to the MUSETEC.

I was amazed by the improvement made to the dynamics and clarity of the sound, I can perceive very clearly the differences between this cable and more 200 Euro USB cables with the +5V PIN present.

I'll be modifying a premium USB cable tonight, I expect amazing results.

I advise everyone to experiment with this modification, I await feedback and measures 😁😁😁

I'll be modifying a premium USB cable tonight, I expect amazing results.

Let us know your outcome.

Charles

As with any highly resolving/transparent dac with excellent usb implementation usb cables will make substantial difference. Having said that I've not heard major differences with taping off power pins. I only continue doing it in order to cross all T's and dot all I's.

In regard to my new custom streamer, now have had a chance to get well acquainted with sound quality with various configurations, I have multiple choices with Roon, HQPlayer and Stylus proprietary music players. At this point favorite is new streamer acting as dedicated server going to Sonore OpticalModule (LPS power) to OpticalRendu (Uptone JS-2) to 005 usb. Just absolutely fabulous, more than marginal gains in resolving/transparency, but sense of ease, refinement is revelatory! My greatest doubt with 005 has long been just the slightest hint of an overbearing digital sound quality, I've long stated this sense as being neutral. With new streamer with it's extreme attention to lowest possible latency, jitter has been diminished such that 005 now sounds far more analog like than previous. I'm sure adding the OpticalModule with it's superior clocking and improved internal power supply vs. genric FMC has bearing on this as well.

Also, have been experimenting with footers for 005. Previously used stock, Herbies devices, Aurios. Recently tried Stillpoints Ultra SS both with and without Ultra bases. The Stillpoints with ultra feet overbearing, didn't care much for this, Stillpoints minus bases, wow, an already increased soundstage size and image dimensionality due to new steaming setup was further increased in both of these, also image stability much improved, images locked in to unbelievable degree. The Stillpoints also split the difference between soft and metal ball bearing footers in tonality/timbre. Soft footers always make sound soft for lack of better term, Aurios always supply much greater spaciousness, open qualities, extension in HF, tighter bass. Stillpoints kept all the good aspects of Aurios while providing much more natural tonality/timbre. Aurios can impart a hard or metallic sound quality, the Stillpoints eliminate this, more natural. Comparison of Aurios vs. Stillpoints done post new streamer.

With recent focus on footers, recollections of hanging past cd players from ceiling via fish line were reanimated. So I will experiment this weekend with hanging 005 via high capacity monofilament fish line from industrial modular shelf system base I picked up from Grainger. Shelf system has 7500lbs load capacity, legs can be filled with sand/lead shot/kitty litter, placing this on fireplace hearth which my system sits on. Hanging cd players and dacs from ceiling always impressive outcomes in past, best footer is no footer. We shall see how this works vs very nice Stillpoints solution.

Finally, since new streaming setup I've been on buying spree, nearly $30k in vinyl and general system upgrades, yet the $3k 005 remains! I could have purchased any number of well regarded dacs with these funds, yet I kept the 005, should speak volumes about my regard for 005. Based on tons of research the only replacement dac I desire is Playback Designs MPD8, FPGA dac from perhaps best digital designer on planet, unfortunately $24K and going up, too rich for me.

Black Friday price of $2,804.15 at Shenzhen Audio.  This price is good for four days. 

Here is another interesting dac I only recently discovered, may be another dac that hits way above it's weight. https://power-holdings-inc.com/Cen-Grand-DSDAC1-0-Deluxe-Model-DAC

https://en.cen-grand.com/product/5/

Now we need some reviews. Always curious about Chinese dacs, some pretty nice ones out there. Assuming Chinese dacs offer great value, would expect big things at this price.

Thinking I might contact Arthur at Power Holdings for demo.

Gave up on PRC DACS a few years ago. Went Canadian (COO means nothing really) with Simaudio, Swiss with Mearson and now found my happy place with LessLoss (Lithuanian). May give the Canor or Limpazator a demo one day.

Thing I like about the LessLoss R2R is the direct path, no chips or caps. No hard edges.

I haven't given up on any country's audio offerings, my system built with Asian, European and North American components. Seems South America missing in action with audio?

@charles1dad 

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I have yet to recover from the numerous auditory orgasms of listening to our MUSETEC with the Premium USB cable with the +5V PIN removed.

I've tried them all, I strongly advise all DAC owners to make the same modification and evaluate the results themselves.

I can confirm that the difference is substantial even using a ridiculous printer cable.

the MUSETEC expresses maximum performance if connected directly via unpowered USB and when the temperature of the entire chassis exceeds 43°C

seeing is believing!

my DAC reaches that temperature after about 6 hours of use

All -

I took the plunge last night and bought a new Musetec MH-DA005 in silver.

I wanted to take advantage of the $2,800 Black Friday price, and I liked the added security of the 30 day no reason return, the 180 day quality of exchange or refund, and the 2 year warranty (which is transferable I was told-when linked to my email).

There was another (used) one on ebay for cheaper, but for the above reasons, I decided to purchase new.

The unit has already shipped, and I should have it delivered by DHL by Dec. 5th.

Server/streamer upgrade is next. 😋  Really looking forward to the new DAC !

@westborn 
Congratulations on your purchase.  Please share your impressions of the DAC after a few days of listening.  Be prepared though for the DAC to improve over the next few weeks as it breaks in fully.

Thanks @melm..

Took delivery of the DAC today. Awesome purchase time to delivery time.

Ordered it Tuesday night, delivered (Houston) by DHL Express Friday afternoon.

I’ve got it plugged in and powered up, but otherwise not connected to anything yet.

@westborn Congrats on purchase. Don't know if you believe you're burning in using in this manner, but you need to connect and send signal through via whatever input and outputs you're using for burn in.