What is perfect for my Fidelity-Research FR-7f (0.15mV) on FR-64fx tonearm is WLM Phonatata phono stage. This phono stage is universal for LOMC (see below) Don’t know what’s happened, but when i changed my tube push-pull integrated amp to First Watt F2J jfet current power amp (and First Watt B1 preamp) the resolution and imaging significantly improved, now the best combination of phono stage+amp for LOMC became my old current phono stage WLM Phonata with automatic load impedance. I tried to discuss it way back on audiogon, but nobody knows this particular phono stage, because the company (WLM was a loudspeaker and amp manufacturer in Vienna) closed the business soon after this phono stage was made. RIAA equalization is implemented across two amplification stages (within current amplification), providing a frequency expansion from 10Hz to 50kHz (Subsonic cut below 10Hz). The PHONATA offers automatic adjustment of Load-Impedance: • You don’t have to adjust the load-Impedance of your cartridge (plus the interconnect-cable between cartridge and Phono-Preamplifier). It goes automatically thanks to one ingenious piece of circuitry. • You don’t have to adjust the source voltage of your cartridge as well. • There are no micro-switches or any other mechanical contacts in the signal-path. The PHONATA works with two-stage amplification: • An inductive voltage amplification stage (for MC cartridges) using high performance professional audio step-up transformers. • A solid state current amplification stage, using specific MOS-FET transistors with tube-typical harmonic distortion characteristics. |
Moving to MC for cheap? My (much) younger (Slavic) brother chakster is learning very fast. His (Raul's) ''learning curve'' must be very high. Besides his memory is such that he even remember that Denon ever produced an MM cart. Well he also mentioned Denon DL-S1 cart. This cart is special designed for their very successful AU-S1 SUT. I am not sure how much later. Anyway this cart is even better than their DL 1000 . The only drawback is its output: 0,15 mV. But the cart is perfect match for the AU-S1 not only qua impedance but also inductance. Inductance however is seldom mentioned by carts and SUT's so how are we supposed to combine them? I got the cart for less than $1000 and SUT for about $1000. I am not aware of any combo regardless the price that can compete with this one. |
I took out an old empire 4000d/III from my stash this week after not using it for 25 or so years (been running LOMC during that time frame) & am absolutely amazed at the sound quality this old cartridge delivers. That said, although you don't want to buy used, they are pretty robust as long as you can get a replacement styli for them. |
@bimasta, Good call, I forgot about the platter mat and the effect it has on the turntables overall sound. The one I use is the inexpensive tweak but high quality GEM Dandy rubber cork compound mat and you can hear the difference between it and the stock mat. Although I do have mat/platter weights I chose not to use them. http://dagogo.com/practically-priced-tools-for-the-lp-lover/2 |
To the OP — You accept that a better MM/MI is that way to go at this
time (and Chakster is right that Raul's classic thread is
must-read) but you seem determined to get a new cartridge. I understand this, but I think you
are drastically, and needlessly, limiting your options. You may achieve
more "goodness" this way, but you're ruling out "greatness".
@Thank you Chakster, you're right again: "SAEC SS-300 mat is a must have to solve an EMI effect (electromagnetic interference) for both MM or LOMC." I've been using it for years. I never had an EMI problem so I didn't know the SAEC solved it, but it's good to know. For me, it's a "must have" for other reasons...
I did have a bearing-rumble problem which resonates intolerably through the platter, thence to the LP and stylus, no matter what mat I use, and drives my woofers berserk. I could not fix it at the source, because the motor is sealed (welded shut — one of those "never needs lubrication" fallacy/fantasies from that period). I will try to drill out the spot-welds next time I undertake a major task, so I can get inside and do the proper maintenance/restoration... if it's not too late.
But meanwhile the SAEC eliminates the rumble entirely. I don't rest it directly on the platter, that doesn't help. Instead, I elevate it above the platter a short distance, less than 1mm. It's supported at three very small points around the outermost perimeter, farthest from the source of rumble (the center) and where the metal is thickest — the added mass at the platter's rim acts as a mechanical sink, and the rumble is at its least there. The SS-300 doesn't sag at all, so those three tiny points are its only contact with the platter and the rumble it carries, nothing but air between them.
The result is silence.
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@ bstatmeister, Sorry for coming to the party so late. I really have come to enjoy my Shure V15VxMR MM cartridge with the JICO SAS VN5xMR stylus and I wanted to share this with you. And you must read Raul’s thread. I tricked out a $70 ’antique shop’ Technics SL-D2 direct drive turntable and a $200 Pioneer PL-600 direct drive turntable (the silver one) and upgraded the headshells with Ortofon LW-800S and LW-7N headshell wires, rewired the tonearm with KAB SuperFlex and Cardas tonearm wires, upgraded the cartridge and stylus with the Shure V15VxMR cartridge and the JICO SAS VN5xMR stylus. (That I switch out) And hardwired the phono interconnects with the very inexpensive but value added Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s with the preamp output interconnects being Blue Jeans Cable LC-1’s also. As far as playing ’albums’ I beleive the best upgrade I made from a pure sound standpoint was adding a Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier at $399 with a pair of NOS Telefunken E88CC/6922’s at $454 after selling my $1748 Pro-Ject Phono Box RS MM/MC and the companion Pro-Ject battery powered Power Box RS power supply that I fortunately sold for a little above cost. After adding the Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier I was amazed at the transparency, depth, wide soundstage, and dynamic range of sound. The Parks Audio Budgie Tube Phono preamplifier is a single ended Class A tube circuit. See the reviews. Now I’m on the hunt for the ’mysterious’ Shure Ultra 500 cartridge. And thank you again for making me aware and opening up my ears to the Vandersteen SUB THREE subwoofers. One day I’m gonna purchase a mint used pair. Ahh...The dreaded disease of ’upgradeitis’. I hope my post here helps you out some. Please see here: https://hometheaterreview.com/shure-v15-phono-cartridge-reviewed/http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/the-shure-v15vxmr-revisited-what-a-great-phono-cartridge.38495...tyray |
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Ortofon 2M Bronze. Using one now on my Technics SL1210GR, $440 new. Sounds is stunning. Stylus is replaceable, and you can upgrade to the 2M Black stylus later on down the road.
Very easy to install, and only needs appoz. 20 hours of play until it really starts to shine. Keeps getting better from there on out too. |
The SAS/ M97xe combo is a giant killer IMO, at least up to around the $1K mark. The caveat is that it requires precise alignment and setup to hear everything it has to offer (especially VTA and VTF). It also takes a good 50 hours of break-in before it really shines. It won't sacrifice much of the Shure's warmth but will produce gobs more detail and separation - simply in a whole different league. I'm convinced it's the best value to be found in analog. Boron cantilevers are traditionally reserved for $2K^ carts!
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The Denon DL103 along with the 103r are outstanding devices and perform well above there current cost. The DL-103, given the cost is a great way to explore MC on the cheap.
Thanks for the support of dabbling in MC. I will definitely try it one day, (when funds permit) but at this point I have been persuaded to do an upgrade to a better MM cartridge. Right now it's neck and neck between a Nagaoka MP-150 or a JICO S.A.S replacement stylus for the Shure m97xE. This one supposedly has a unique tip that "reaches deeper into the groove" to pull out more groove info and be better in the higher frequencies, also sports a boron cantilever, which I am told is better than aluminum. The Jico SAS would be about 100 bucks less than the Nagaoka, so I might go this way first, but if anyone has any opinions between these, two, I would be happy to hear them. (also, opinions on the Schiit Mani, as well) |
The Denon DL103 along with the 103r are outstanding devices and perform well above there current cost. The DL-103, given the cost is a great way to explore MC on the cheap.
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Let's not forget that the OP is dealing with a tonearm that is a medium to high mass arm, and he has an under $300 budget. In that regard, the 103D is an excellent fit. If he can stretch his budget a bit, a better expenditure IMO would be a slightly better pre-preamplifier.
Yeah, been think about better preamps, as well. For $130 bucks, I've heard that the schitt mani may be a good bang for the buck, surely it's better than the TCC. |
Let's not forget that the OP is dealing with a tonearm that is a medium to high mass arm, and he has an under $300 budget. In that regard, the 103D is an excellent fit. If he can stretch his budget a bit, a better expenditure IMO would be a slightly better pre-preamplifier. |
What about the Hana HOMC? Don't have direct experience with it but have heard great things. |
Nagaoka MP150 has aluminum cantilever and an elliptical tip. What is special about it ??? It's entry level Nagaoka and the price is not cheap compared to far more superior JVC Victor X-1IIe (beryllium cantilever), Ortofon M20FL Super (FineLine stylus), that you can find for the same price or very close. Much better is Glanz MFG610LX NOS or brand new Garrott p77i in this price range. |
I own both , can vary from system to system . I thing i know for SURE (pun-intended) is the Nagoka is FAR better built !
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Nagaoka MP150 for $329.00. An MI that punches way above its weight and beats any MC in it's price range 3X.
YES! exactly what I was looking for. Thank you! I've done some research this morning about this cart and seems like it a STEAL for the money. I believe I may go with this next unless anyone has some direct comparison between it and the Jico SAS N97xE replacement tip |
Dear @bstatmeister: Please email me, I think I still have a new SAS stylus replacement. I'm out of home rigth now but tomorrow I will check and let you know.
Sent you a PM |
Nagaoka MP150 for $329.00. An MI that punches way above its weight and beats any MC in it's price range 3X. |
Dear @bstatmeister: Please email me, I think I still have a new SAS stylus replacement. I'm out of home rigth now but tomorrow I will check and let you know.
R. |
@bstatmeister
Do you mean the JICO SAS for shure cartidges? The old generation of SAS just replaced with the NEO SAS (Sapphire and Ruby). I remember @halcro post where he explained that he can't detect any difference in sound between an old and new SAS. Both are good. |
Anyone tried a Jico S.A.S styli replacement? looks like they were discontinued a couple years ago since boron prices went up, but looks like you can get them for around $240 on the aftermarket. |
@lowrider57
SAEC SS-300 mat is a must have to solve an EMI effect (electromagnetic interference) for both MM or LOMC |
I was going to recommend a Grado as well. But, with the Grado's unshielded design, will it pick up hum from the Technics motor? Anybody with experience to answer this question? |
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Thanks for the feedback guys. After all the input I think I may have been swayed into buying a better MM cart (than the Shure m97xe) rather than trying to find a cheap way of doing MC without overhauling the rest of my system. After doing some research I think that Cartridge man Music Maker III looks like a great long term goal (1k is just too much for a cart right now). Now I am looking at MM/MI carts in the 300-500 dollar range. On which one would be the best for me might be a crap shoot, since nothing is a stand-out based off of my research in that price range. So I ain't got the warm and fuzzies at this point (I do for the music maker though...sigh...) (alternatively everywhere I look between 3-5 hundred it is always the Denon DL-103R as the winner - but again, it's moving coil) Any clear stand-outs that I could buy NEW (I do not like the idea of used for a cart) as either an MM or MI you can think of? As for phono stage, I was looking at the emotiva, looks like impressive specs for only $200. Any thoughts on this? SN ratio is significantly better than what I have now: https://emotiva.com/products/xps-1 |
@roberjerman
Arm mass is NOT critical! Excellent results in both cases!
special for you: https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency
If a low compliance cartridge is used with a low mass tonearm, undesirable resonances can occur in the audible range. Mistracking may also be a problem. When a high compliance cartridge is mated with a moderate mass tonearm, resonances in the infrasonic range may occur in addition to some unwanted high frequency damping.
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@bstatmeister - I’m not going to get into the MM/MC debate because we all have our own preferences, but if you want to get higher resolving sound, I would start by replacing your phono stage. Any of the Simmaudio Moon products will be a huge improvement over what you have. The LP110 is a great place to start and will work with either MM or MC carts - so you can move forward from there http://simaudio.com/en/product/110lp-phono-preamplifier/See what it does for your sound first I made the mistake of buying budget phono stages. When I got the Simmaudio MOON - it opened my eyes to what vinyl has to offer. As for your arm - if you are interested - you might want to take a look at the Audiomods arms. They actually do a custom mount just for your turntable http://www.audiomods.co.uk/technicsarm.htmlThe audiomods arm is a superb upgrade that you could aim for down the road. AND don’t believe anyone that says putting the Audiomods arm on the 1200 is a foolish move - I have heard what the arm did for a friend with that very table and it is an excellent upgrade that brought the best out of the table. In your shoes I would start the LP110 first - and only then, consider a cartridge upgrade. Regards - Steve |
I presently have two 103R's mounted on two different TT's (with different arms). A Pioneer PLX1000 (medium-weight arm) and an Ariston RD11S/Grace 707 (light arm). Arm mass is NOT critical! Excellent results in both cases! |
I agree that there are lots of mm/mi to explore that are worth investigating. But maybe consider a ho mc. I like the Dynavector 10x5 quite a bit. Pricey now but maybe a lightly used one. Not fussy to get up and going, nice all rounder.
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The advice I was given by my local store is invest in the cart and not all the things you need to make it sound good. That's why I went with a $700 MM and not $200 on a MC and another $500 to make it compatible with my amp which already has a phono stage input.
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Some cartridges to also think about are Clearaudio Aurum Beta S, Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood--used. Either would be about $300-400. If later on you wished to upgrade the sound, the Cartridge Man Music Maker III is very nice sounding and more detailed than most of the MM's. I picked up one used on Agon for $500. It lists for $1295. None of these would need a step up device. I've had the Clearaudio cartridges in a very fine Maplenoll Ariadne straight line tracking air bearing TT/arm combo. Any would be a large step up in sound quality to the Shure. I had the V15 back in college. OK is all.
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@chakster makes a good point. He is using a modified tonearm with better damping than your stock Technics. And your stock TT is not optimal for MC. There are many good MM/MI carts available for $300 which would be a significant upgrade in SQ. |
@chakster, like I said so many variables, which you have listed just a few.
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@tooblue Grace are better on light mass tonearms, the compliance of Grace cartridges are extremely high and Technics tonearm is not optimal for them, but i’ve tried my F-9F (Shibata) and F14 LC-OFC on stock technics tonearm, the F14 is much better, but even F9 is much more expensive that the OP budget as i can see.
F9-R normally goes for $600 with original stylus (cartridge body goes alone for $200 without stylus at all) and F14 for $1200 with original stylus. SoundSmith best styli for Grace looks ugly and cost $500 just for the stylus!
While the Ortofon M20FL with nude FineLine stylus cost less than $350 (it’s a bargain) and it’s a better match for Technics stock tonearm. Also original styli are still available NOS from various sources. |
Wow a lot of variables to consider, turntable/arm, phono stages and the such but once you make the switch you will notice more realism to the music there is more of if thicker, darker, moodier. I switched from an ADC XLM II and a Grace F9R in 1978 to a GAS Sleeping Beauty and have never looked back, for very long, still have a SS rebuilt Grace F9R on another arm wand that I enjoy from time to time. There are folks here on Audiogon that marvel at their MM and I am sure they can make a case. |
@bstatmeister This is what I was fearing - That it just might not be possible to get better sound than what I currently have You will definitely get a better sound with a better MM cartridge. I have the same turntables (they are not my main turntables) and i’ve tried various MM cartridges on that stock Technics tonearm, but my arm has fluid damper and turntable was rewired, also added isonoe footers. Anyway, you don’t have to worry about it, the better cartridge has a better sound - that’s it! Pretty simple, everything starts from the cartridge. The rest you can upgrade later on step by step, but you need a decent cartridge matched to your tonearm. I told you about a guy who just swapped same Shure to a much better Ortofon M20FL Super with Nude Fine Line stylus. It was a very big improvement on the stock Technics with stock wiring etc. The cartridge is the most important thing in the analog chain in my opinion. You can change everything (cables, phono stage, speakers), but if you can’t get the information from the groove walls you will not be able to improve it by anything else. Read about different profiles of the diamond (stylus) and you will find that the best is FineLine (or Line Contact). Conical profile of DL-103 is a nonsense, that’s the cheapest profile with rolled off bass and treble compared to FineLine or LineContact. That’s why people love to re-tip that stock Denon when they are looking for improvement. It is not the cartridge for your system, especially for your tonearm and phono stage. Forget about it! It’s a waste of money and time. It's oldschool rolled off sound for horn speakers, idler drive turntables and heavy tonearms like Thomas Schick "12. |
I agree your next move should be to a good MM/MI cart. There will be a great improvement in SQ over your budget Shure cart.
Keep in mind that MC is very revealing of not only the music on the vinyl, but will reveal any flaws plus noise from your phonostage. If the cart/tonearm is not accurately set up, the sound quality will suffer. That is why a good MC setup is expensive. You would need to spend considerably more on a phonostage than the unit you selected. The quality of the power supply is also important to achieve higher-end sonics.
This is what I was fearing - That it just might not be possible to get better sound than what I currently have simply by swapping out a couple relatively inexpensive parts. My hope is that I could spend ~$300 (Denon DL-103 + TC-760) to take my next big leap in sound quality, but it might not be possible at my current budget (and from what I'm hearing could actually be worse). This saddens me. |
I agree your next move should be to a good MM/MI cart. There will be a great improvement in SQ over your budget Shure cart.
Keep in mind that MC is very revealing of not only the music on the vinyl, but will reveal any flaws plus noise from your phonostage. If the cart/tonearm is not accurately set up, the sound quality will suffer. That is why a good MC setup is expensive. You would need to spend considerably more on a phonostage than the unit you selected. The quality of the power supply is also important to achieve higher-end sonics.
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Point taken. So, in order to realize the true benefit of MC, much more needs to be spent on the cart to ensure adequate quality? And if this is not possible may not be worth the time and money on a lower-end set-up.
My issue is that I do not have a lot of money to play with but I do want to fool around with MC. Tough pill to swallow. You have to read Raul’s thread , so much information about MM vs. MC. In my opinion it is much more important to have a proper MM/MI on hands, those MM/MI cartridges are always cheaper than LOMC cartridges, but the quality of the selected (very best) MM/MI is outstanding for the money. It is not for those who’s afraid to buy vintage (lightly used or NOS) cartridges from the 70s/80s. They are the best in its class, Moving Magnet peak was at that time, not now. I did everything wrong myself some year ago, so my advice is not to buy cheap MC or even very expensive MC if you don’t have a decent MM cartridge. My curiosity was so high 4-5 years ago than i bought a very expensive new LOMC (i was brainwashed by the common statment that MC are always better than MM), later on i have discovered so many amazing MM cartridges (better than my ex super expensive $3k LOMC). The quest with the right phono stage for the LOMS is also very difficult and expensive. But it’s all a part of the hobby. Start with the right MM or MI, something that’s have been approved in our community, the Ortofon M20FL Super is one of them and actually still very cheap ($250-350 depends on condition), if you prepared to spend $500-800 there must be a much better MM cartridges, everyone knows that my love is AT-ML170 and Victor X-1II for example. You need a mid compliance cartridges for your Technics tonearm, definitely not low compliance carts. About the DENON: There was an MM alternative to the DL-103 - another broadcast cartridge designed for NHK radiostation in the same era! It's Denon DL-107 with conical tip. This is also Denon stock sound, but you don’t have to worry about expensive SUT or MC phono stage with high gain. The DL-107 is Moving Magnet alternative to the DL-103 LOMC. On the DL-107 the replacement stylus is screwed to the cartridge like on Signet or ADC TRX carts - this is great (i have a few NOS styli). |
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Though the DL-103 is a good mc cartridge, it is a mismatch for your system. The output is too low to properly match with the phono input in your preamp. Denon makes a couple of very good performing mc cartridges that would have similar output as your Shure cart and will provide much better performance. The Denon DL-110 comes to mind, but there are other brands that produce high output moving coil (HOMC) cartridges. |
In my opinion you want to try the LOMC whithout even realised the potential of MM cartridges. But no problem, we're always looking for something new and different. If your budget is $300 you'd better forget about LOMC (imo), but if you have $1500-2000 you can try to find some nice LOMC.
Point taken. So, in order to realize the true benefit of MC, much more needs to be spent on the cart to ensure adequate quality? And if this is not possible may not be worth the time and money on a lower-end set-up. My issue is that I do not have a lot of money to play with but I do want to fool around with MC. Tough pill to swallow. |
I have a Shure M97x cart and it’s been fantastic If this cartridge is fantastic for you then you will be blown away by a proper MM/MI cartridges you can still try for relatively low price. Few years ago a friend of mine asked for a cartridge, he came to my house with his Shure M97x, his own turntable is Technics SL1210mkII. He wouldn’t pay too much, so the competitive cartridge was Ortofon M20FL Super (under $350 normally). On the same turntable and on the same tonearm the Ortofon M20FL Super (nude FineLine stylus) was much better than Shure. Same Ortofon M20FL Super was praised by many experienced audiogon users in the beggining of Raul’s thread regarding MM vs. MC and that’s why i adviced his to try this first. I believe they can be tracked down for $250-350 (i still have NOS stylus). Denon DL-103 is a joke, but it’s very popular because it’s very cheap. It’s funny, but people who’s buyin them cheap in stock condition then investing up to $500-700 more to replace a stock aluminum cantilever and conical tip, also to replace the plastic body. They are happy after everything has been replaced and upgraded, but it’s no longer a Denon stock sound, and it’s no longer a cheap affordable cartridge. So you tell me why do you need a low complianbce DL-103 with conical tip when you can buy Denon DL-S1 or maybe Denon DL-1000 for example? Remember that your tonearm was designed for MM cartridges and definitely not for the low compliance cartridges of any type, the DL-103 designed for super heavy high mass tonearms. In my opinion you want to try the LOMC whithout even realised the potential of MM cartridges. But no problem, we’re always looking for something new and different. If your budget is $300 you’d better forget about LOMC (imo), but if you have $1500-2000 you can try to find some nice LOMC. |
It's really impossible to offer you a meaningful suggestion without knowing more, such as what pickup arm and phono preamp you will be using with this cart.
I am currently using the TCC TC-750 from phonopreamps.com and I have to say that I really don't have any complaints about it. For the money I couldn't ask for more. Noise floor is dead silent and I am getting incredible detail coming rom my records. That being said, I have never heard a true high-end phono-preamp so ignorance is bliss? Here is the rest of my set-up Mains: Vandersteen 2C Turntable: Technics SL1200 MKII (I got this brand new right before they ended production around 2010) Tone arm: Stock with the turntable from Technics Cartridge: Shure M97xe Preamp: Using an Onkyo TX-SR805 Amp: Behringer EP 2500 (This is a pro Amp, it provide loads of power - 1200 watts per channel with a giant toroidal transformer, but it was quite loud with the stock fan, so I did a fan mod, now it's as quiet as a mouse) If I upgrade to the Denon, I mighty start out with the MC phono section from the same site: https://www.phonopreamps.com/TC-760LCpp.htmlit says it competes with the NAD at the relative price point. Thanks for your feedback |
Nonsense! The Denon 103 mc's are true classics (and in production since 1962!). They are the best sounding cartridges under $500 of any type! My experience with the 103's goes back to 1977 when I heard one paired with a Levinson JC-1 headamp - mounted on a Denon 307 arm on a TOTL Denon DD TT. A FABULOUS sounding setup! And the price of the 103 then was $160! Today I own several of the series - 103, 103R, 103 Gold Anniversary. I find them eminently musical and satisfying!
Everything I've researched indicates this. Really seems like a great deal and a good starting place to jump into MC carts. Thanks for the feedback! |
You will notice a decrease in sound quality.
Please elaborate on this. You don't like the Denon or you prefer MM style carts? |
I started with the 103 and enjoyed it very much,
I also upgraded my phono stage to a Simmaudio Moon LP5.3RS. This upgrade brought out the very best from the Denon - it is not hard to see why this cartridge was chosen by broadcasters the world over for decades.
But in search of improvements - I moved up to a soundsmith modified version of the Denon 103.
The step up was well worth it - the SS 103 is superb and will compete with much more expensive cartridges. It is very detailed, without scarifcing any of the Denon 103 qualities. Maybe something to try once you’ve had time to appreciate the Denon 103.
If you are just getting into moving coil - the only thing I might recommend for the SS 103 version - opt for the Eliptical Stylus - it is easier to setup than the more advanced stylus profiles - they require extreme precision and a mirror-style protractor and loupe - and a younger pair of eyes :-)
But as Cleeds posted - what arm are you planning to use it on - I had to used a brass shim to increase the overall mass in order to get the very best performance from this cartridge. I am using an Audiomods arm - similar to a Rega WRT mass
Regards - Steve |
DL-110 is a great warm FM sounding cartridge |
It's really impossible to offer you a meaningful suggestion without knowing more, such as what pickup arm and phono preamp you will be using with this cart.
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