I do notice that, as with my stand mounts, there less bass at my siting position vs standing in the same spot. Of course you do. Sound travels in waves. Walls reflect sound waves the way glass reflects light, the main difference being sound waves are so much longer. When waves collide they can cancel, or reinforce, or add together. If you had a perfectly rectangular room with nothing in it, like I did when my listening room was first built, you could hear this very easily across a whole range of frequencies. But as you put more and more stuff into the room, stereo gear, furniture, anything really, all this stuff breaks up and diffuses and scatters all the shorter wavelength higher frequency sound waves. So in most rooms all you’re left with is bass. But the same happens to all of it. So the bass wave travels out into the room and in no time flat runs into its own reflection. Which at this point if they are both wave crests then they add together and the bass at that location and at that frequency is louder. But where the crest meets a trough they cancel and the bass is very weak. This is what you’re hearing, and now you know why. Move slowly around the room, not just left and right but up and down, while playing a repetitive bass line. With only one sub you should be able to find at least a few places where the bass is barely audible, and others where its very loud. When you find one of these spots remember where it is, move the sub, and go back and listen again. You will find it is completely different now. Moving the sub moved the modal area. This is why subs get such a bad rap. Its not that they’re bad. Subs are awesome! Its the physics of low frequencies in small rooms that is bad. With one sub all you can do is move the modes around. Its impossible to ever get good smooth bass response with one sub. Impossible. Literally. It would require a sub able to defy the physics of sound waves. But wait, what’s that? Physics has the answer! Lots of subs! Everything above still applies. But more subs can be placed in more locations, resulting in more but smaller modes, resulting in much smoother, faster, more articulate bass. Its what we call a distributed bass array, and you can search around and read all about it. Everyone who has tried this raves about it, and because its so incredibly awesome a bunch of us write about it every chance we get. Which I have done many times already. But its a hard concept to get across, so I keep searching for better and better ways of explaining. Because I’m telling ya, they sure aren’t paying me for it! |
Yeah I need to do the crawl. To be honest I didn’t expect to get it to integrate well so I’m surprised to even get this far.
my biggest thing about subs is
A. Apartment living. Though I live in the ground floor I’m sure my upstairs neighbor is getting it.
B. Integration. It’s good me thinks but not perfect. I’m just doing it by ear but it’s cohesive regardless of whether it’s Bunny Wailer or Napalm Death. So it’s a start. |
I have a very small listening room,9x13x8. I run three subs! Now 4 would be ideal,and that will probably happen when I rearrange things a bit. All three subs are cut off kind of low for the speakers I am currently using. (Graham Chartwell LS3/5) not much bass below 75hz. I have not measured,but my ears tell me different. Is it the BBC bass hump?? I have two of the subs crossed at 55-60hz,the third crossed at 45ish. To my ears works and sounds great! I rotate a couple other pairs of speakers in my system and crossovers are changed accordingly. |
I have always preferred the sound of two monitors with a sub or subs. I find it gives a lot more flexibility in terms of placement and room optimization.
Because my wife wants the smallest box possible, at home I run a Sunfire Tru SuperJunior which is a 9" cube. Sunfire, Rel, SVS, etc... and you can get some brilliant sound reproduction. It also really opens up your choice in terms of speakers as it doesn't matter how deep the frequency response is on a monitor. |
I've had subwoofers for many years and getting them integrated to the side speakers and especially to the room can be a daunting task.
Having said that, I am glad I have a pair, the bass they generate is un-matched by any of the speakers I've found...in my price range. |
#1 rule of ultimate high fidelity is, get your butte out of the apartment.
Don't bother spending a lot of money on equipment while you are in an apartment. You can't use it. Save the money for getting out of the apartment. The single most important piece of equipment you can buy is a house. |
@mijostyn not possible sadly. At least not for the foreseeable future. |
If I was forced to live in an apartment I would be forced to buy some Raal Ribbons.... |
I know that living in an apartment means I’m white trash in relation to those who post here. But this is the reality of my life.
i was married and when our daughter was born it was discovered she had developmental disabilities. Hearing that my wife packed and left and decided she didn’t want to be a mom. Having a disabled child means hospitals, doctors and therapies for most of not the entirety of their life.
i have degrees but I also work 14-18 hours a day, 6 days a week between my 2 jobs and some side work. For reference, my daughter’s therapies cost $3k per month in addition to her schooling and medical care. Never mind rent, electric, car insurance, food and gas. I make too much for Section 8 housing. So I’m left to make it work however I can.
Under previous administrations I could write off the therapies and medical costs on my taxes which helped a bit but under the current administration that was terminated leaving me to pay for everything and applicable taxes as anyone would.
For reference, I made a combined $63k last year and we live in a dumpy apartment. So it’s not like I fly tall. I drive a sh*tty car which thankfully has been mostly reliable.
So apartment living is my reality. Big F’ing deal. I make it all work somehow. I’m fairly certain many here wouldn’t last 6 months in my world. So yeah, I try to put together a hifi that makes me happy. If I get 4 hours a week to sit and relax, I want to hear some records played back sounding nice. Even in an apartment. |
gochurchgo,I think your day to day life would crush most. Hearing your story kind of makes hifi seem quite irrelevant. God bless you,and enjoy what ever you can. |
Many of us here don't have the means or good fortune to have a great space or expensive equipment.Like me.Try to ignore the ones that hit 'send' before they think.There are plenty of people that will offer helpful and thrifty suggestions.Even entry level equipment can be tweaked to sound pretty amazing. |
gochurchgo
thanks for taking good care of your daughter. thanks for sharing your joy in the sub woofer arrangement. sorry for the snarky remarks from some. I don't know how to make any better adjustments than you have. please really enjoy your system. |
A. Apartment living. Though I live in the ground floor I’m sure my upstairs neighbor is getting it. I suspect that killing the standing waves will also prevent them from being obvious in other's living spaces. A distributed bass array is certainly worth a try. A standing wave is set up when the reflected wave is in phase with the incoming wave. Another way to describe this is 'superposition'. The two waves re-enforce, so you get a big wave in one area, and none in another. That big wave is far more likely to be able to move about the building. |
@atmasphere I’m playing around with moving the sub out front he wall. It’s currently placed to the right of the right speaker approximately 8” from
the front wall. The sidewall on that side is 13’ away. I’m pondering moving the sub to the left side a couple feet from the corner but doe to the cords that’s a PITA. I might try that tomorrow.
When I stand at the sitting position the bass sounds good and a touch punchy. When is sit there’s still mid bass but the lower end seems to roll off. I’m thinking some sort of wall mounted bass absorption on the back wall might fix the null. Maybe?
I’m going to get my hands on some 2x4’s after the holidays and get some rock wool, stretch fabric over it and have my daughter paint something on it then hang it. That will be cool. |
I live in a condo and I have a subwoofer in my system. After installing the SVS SoundPath "subwoofer isolation system" (set of 4 for approx $70) on my subwoofer, I noticed cleaner and tighter bass. Plus, my neighbor confirmed that he was now hearing less bass rumble. When he saw how happy I was with that news, he knew that I was trying to be a good neighbor. So, it was a win - win situation. I also try to time my listening sessions around when he is not at home. Bottom line is enjoy your music and best of luck to you! |
I’ll look into the SVS footers. I moved the sub further down the front wall away from the listening position after I noticed that, when walking past the sub the area directly in front of the driver (front firing) there was less bass there. Now it’s 2 feet further away and it’s a little more level between sitting and standing.
Learning is fun. |
Gochurchgo, you are far from white trash imho. You deserve the utmost respect for keeping your family together and taking care of your daughter. I too have lived in less than desirable locations. Making do and accepting your situation probably wears on you. Finding respite in music helps soothe the soul. Listen as often as possible.
The distributed bass array helped most of my lack of quality bass. You could use your current sub with two more woofers. I went with 2 cu ft sealed boxes, 2 tens and 1 twelve-used car stereo boxes and subs for the $savings. Will add another twelve in the future. Uses one 200 watt woofer to drive all 3.
Could the lack of bass on the speakers be due to out of phase sub? I have a small 8 inch Velodyne sub (works great). Gave one just like it to my next door neighbor, it is in the garage, buried under. If you would like, it is yours, no charge, just pay shipping-haven't used it in 3 years and it will be given away at some point. You can give me your address at jmoats71149@gmail.com. No strings. I would just like to contribute to an outstanding father. Jerry
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@ gochurchgo you my man are a better man than most. I to have a friend who is a father of a special needs child, and when we meet I hug him like a brother. As I slowly upgrade you will be the first to know what I am getting rid of, god bless you sir. |
As a less than deep pocket gear enthusiast myself there is a very good sounding sub from pioneer designed by Andrew Jones. For the money it’s very very good.
Pioneer Elite SW-10 mk2...
bought one for a friend for a system and was blown away by the sound from an affordable box.
Happy Listening!!
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@gochurchgo,
I can definitely say that this is the first time that any thing on Audiogon has moved me to tears (other than some of the prices of the actual equipment..)!
I tip my hat to you, sir. |
Hi gochurchgo,
In times past I have lived in an apartment for many years. With careful tweaking, I managed to get excellent sound that would put me well in the music zone for hours with thorough enjoyment. The living room was pretty big at 24’ x 15’. Its not impossible to get great sound in an apartment, but I had to compromise on setup and seating position to get everything balanced. I need a strong bass foundation - its a big priority for me personally. I’ve had modest full rangers that can put out plenty of bass if positioned optimally. I always found placing the speakers along the long wall to sound best, but I managed to get decent results with the speakers etc along the short wall too. If you can manage a decent entry level vinyl system, the bigness / wideness of the sound will hold together really well in an apartment. Just my experience. Cheers bro, Adam. |
Hi gochurchgo
for the problem you are having about getting better bass standing up, try putting the sub on a chair and see if that solves the problem. If it does, then you need a stand for that sub. Good luck and welcome to the club. |
GoChurchGo,as a recent immigrant to USA from Australia, I had until very recently lived in a 1 bedroom apartment. It was hard to change that situation with no credit history in USA, and financial institutions not lending money to a legal permanent resident (not a citizen). Though not the same, I empathise. If you haven't tried putting springs under the 4 corners of your subwoofer, I assure you of two things. That the vibrations will pass from your subwoofer into the foundations and frame of the apartment much less with springs, and the bass will tighten up and sound much cleaner, and will require less power to achieve the same audible results with springs. And futhermore, they will be one of the cheapest means up substantial upgrade to your system, while making it more neighbour friendly. Someone here in this forum was selling springs relatively cheaply, I seem to recall they were even cryogenically treated as well? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Pd8UK6SZ_s |
I just listen to a sub without any other speakers from time to time just to remember what day-to-day living in my NYC condo sounded like. |
Thank everyone for reinforcing my main point when posting comments on this Forum.
YOUR ROOM is the most important part of any listening system, period.
Once you internalize that fact, you are ready to bring stuff home and see how it sounds there rather than to a reviewer--thank goodness for most of them--or anyone else you know, including your salesperson.
"Try before you buy" was the watchword in my former shop. It should be yours as well. My customers were always happy after the purchase--well, the ones who followed our advice, anyway!
Cheers! |
I had a few hours to myself and I was playing with the sub some more. It occurs to me that my current speakers aren’t voiced to bring what I’m looking for (not just bass but also warmth and clarity).
So I was talking with an acquaintance who said I should look at Canton (9.2) and Dynaudio Special 40.
It’s not like I’m buying speakers this year or next but for the fun of it, has anyone heard either of these? |
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I used to be anti-sub, but knew I was missing out on some good bass. I had extreme difficulty integrating one into my system properly, but eventually managed to make it sound decent enough. But it was still too muddy with poor resolution on the low end. My listening room is rather small & awkwardly shaped so the acoustics are terrible. I tried room treatments. The affordable option (egg crate foam) worked fine but wouldn't pass the wife test. I'm too stingy to splurge on treatments she'd approve. I recently decided to try a miniDSP DDRC-24 with the Dirac Live room correction software. I'm not sure what manner of sorcery it is, but that little box works MAGIC!!! My system now sounds like the professional setups I've heard when auditioning in AV shops. I now get fantastic resolution on the low end even at lower volumes. I'm now totally pro-subwoofer.
It may be blasphemous to the audiophile community but I highly recommend miniDSP as a reasonably affordable way to help with bass (subwoofer) integration issues and room correction in general.
If you have the right equipment I suppose it may be possible to just get the DIRAC Live as standalone software.
I know there are other correction options that are probably just as good (like Room EQ), but this is the one I've experienced and liked. I was unimpressed by Anthem's software that I use for a secondary setup. |
@osiris369 I’m definitely not anti-DSP. If I had a system that was mostly giving me what I wanted I’d definitely look at DSP to tie the room together.
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@millercarbon--i have fairly full range speakers (Aerial Acoustics 7t) but also have a sub that i have not, to date, attempted to integrate mainly because i found it so difficult before with my prior standmount speakers and only recently learned that using more than one sub is better--
1. If i buy another sub (my listening room is small -16"x 14' on the left side but 14'x14' on the right side due to a closet--so i probably wouldn't go for more than one more sub) is it better to buy the same size/same brand or does that really matter? The sub i have is no longer made although the manufacturer is still in business but i'd hate to have to buy two
2. I know where the standing waves are in my room and also where the bass is virtually cancelled--when locating subs do you put them where the waves are reinforced or where the bass is weak or ? I have a pink noise generator and an RTA on my phone so just wondering if i can use just those to properly locate a sub? FWIW I can't do the crawl due to really bad knees.
Thanks for any tips |
@wyoboy: what's the difference between the aerial 7T and the 7B., If you don't mind.
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sorry--no idea--although they look similar--7t is more recent |
@gochurchgo
Not easy your situation (an understatement). From what you have written describing your life, I get the sense that "simple pleasures" come at a cost that goes beyond the funds required to facilitate.
REL suggests that when positioning a sub, you are to start with putting the sub in your listening position and then move yourself around the room until the sub sounds "right" to you.
Thats where you are supposed to start with the placement of the sub.
Re: neighbors. Perhaps just plat loud music when they are asleep. That way, they wont hear you...
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"REL suggests that when positioning a sub, you are to start with putting the sub in your listening position and then move yourself around the room until the sub sounds "right" to you."
perkri,
The Owner's Manual on my REL T/5i sub states the following with regard to Positioning....
"The optimum position for a REL is in one of the corners behind the main speakers. This position provides 9dB of mechanical amplification and allows for the most linear true low bass wave launch...."
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@perkri I’ve been meaning to do that. I need a longer cable and with Christmas fast approaching I’m not sure when I’ll get to it.
it was mentioned about switching phase which I dismissed as it was set to 0 (on the front wall) but going to 180 made a big diff. The void directly in front of the sub I mentioned is now gone. I also set the crossover to about 75hz and I think it blends pretty good. From Ben Webster to Napalm Death to Skinny Puppy to DJ Shadow it’s seems like there’s no sub running until I unplug it.
I do still walk the room as I worry about loading a part that pisses the neighbor off. So far so good. It’s a small victory but I’ll take it. Plus I haven’t had this much time to listen to music in years. |
Hi, I work with special needs kids so I know you are a real life angel to your child. She is lucky. I have equipment I don’t use but no subs. I live in saint Louis, mo and maybe I have equipment that would be upgrades for you at no cost. My email is alexbornstein@yahoo.com. I would be honored to help
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For years I had a system with five Thiel 3.5 and 2 2 loudspeakers, all full-range and the three 3.5's flat down into the '20's. No sub(s) needed, and flat, full bass response. One way to beat the problem. |
So it seems. Lear to me now I have a null. I only get the nice bass drum hit when my head is all the way back against the wall. No bueno.
with the sub on the front wall I get the same as I do though the mains. If I move 3ft left of the couch which puts me right in the opening to the short hallway the bass is ridiculous. Deep and taught like a....well I don’t know what. At the sitting position it’s warmer but more or less the same as with no sub.
i ordered a cheap 30’ rca cable to do a crawl when I had time but for S & G’s I moved the sub to the right of the couch. After maybe an hour I can get the punchiness and mostly make it not sound like I’m sitting next to it.
For whatever reason this has my psyche in a tizzy as I now question even buying new speakers at some point (which I had built up on my mind as the antidote to the perceived problem). It also bothers me that I need a sub to get in the ballpark of the sound in my head. Don’t ask me why. It’s dumb I agree.
so continued reading seems to leave 2 more potential options.
A. Put my big boy pants on and open my mind to a sub/subs, do the crawl and see how to maybe use a front wall and rear wall placement to work things out. Also pray that I won’t have to move anytime soon and the I’ll always be on the bottom level.
B. Grab that IKEA 2x4 shelf I have laying around and see if some sort of bokkcase can deflect/defuse enough waves to maybe reduce/eliminate the null.
i don’t know.
i welcome any insight.
also, I moved the sitting position up to 38% and it sounded really good (no sub) and even better at 50%. I don’t have WAF issues but it’s not super workable unless I move the damn couch to those positions when I’m alone (which is not often). |
