Unless you’re hell bent on its looks I think you’re nuts for considering the SF sub at $3k. First, SF is not a premier subwoofer company (as opposed to Paradigm that makes some of the best subs extant IMHO), and the Gravis lll only goes down to 25Hz (-6dB), which probably is no better than your Paradigm. And BTW, it pisses me off SF doesn’t publish a -3dB spec, which inhibits direct comparison with others that do and only makes me think they’re not proud of the number. Second,, it’s a sealed sub that’s a different design from your x10 that’s ported, and I can’t imagine that makes it easier to integrate the two.
Gotta tell ya, to me another x10 makes a lot more sense on every level except looks. Then again, given you may be looking for some added depth I think an even better (and cheaper) option might be an SVS PB1000 Pro. Like your x10 it’s a ported design, but the 1000 would get you down to 19Hz (-3dB) and costs only $599. Plus, and this is a biggie, SVS offers a generous and true risk-free trial period that includes shipping both ways, and they have excellent customer service and would probably be a big help in integrating your subs. Either way, just adding a second sub is an excellent idea, and that alone is going to yield huge benefits to the quality of bass you’re getting. Ok, that’s all I got. Hope it helps, and best of luck.
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The advice I've gotten from various informed folks has been: second sub should match first one; more than 2, mix and match. |
I agree with soix. Scratch the SF sub idea. But yes, add another sub by all means. I'm running three SVS (2 SB-2000 and a SB-3000 in the audio room in asymmetric locations with great results and would like a fourth. Paradigm makes good stuff; not sure how their subs stack up bang for the dollar with the surge of great inexpensive mfrs now, SVS, Rhythmyk, HSU, etc... Idle curiosity, which SF model? I do like the sound generally.
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What is your goal with the addition of another sub? Listening to 2 channel music on a dedicated 2 channel stereo, or both, home theater and music listening through an AV processor? If it’s 2 channel, whatever sub you decide to acquire (makes good sense to use same, however, not a show stopper…check out a pair of SVS Micro 3000s for a little added punch in the lows while saving space), you should measure the in room response to see what settings have an effect at the listening position. You will get the crawl, low crawl, hang em high, recommendations, but why? Use technology to see on a display as to how the sub settings can be smoothed out by changing certain parameters to get an ideal and smooth curve.
More subs allows you to balance those bass room interactions to a certain degree and get away with smaller subs to boot. You should still use bass absorption judiciously if required to further help room issues, in particular smalle rooms. Smaller rooms are way more complicated than larger rooms, so multiple subs aids a lot in smoothing out bass modes. Larger rooms are more forgiving because, well, they allow the lower frequency to travel farther thus reducing the amount of bass frequency propagation, although their is still some and you need to again measure. REW makes a great application to measure your room.
For home theater and fire and forget use, just use the built in room measuring equipment built into your processor if so equipped. You may still not like it’s results.
The reason I suggested the SVS Micro 3000 is that if all you are looking for is some bass assist, and a means to control the sub, these little powerhouses are ample enough, while being subtle in size to add that extra flair to bass without messing up the stereo image if used properly. They are equivalent to nearly 12” woofers with their dual 8” size. I may or may not be testing a pair in my very large room with very large speakers:) |
Thanks all for the helpful input—okay SF Sub is scratched off the list. My use will be 2-channel music only and I do love deep bass. My room is 16x18 with vaulted ceilings (family living room so treatment is not an option).
I have certainly looked at SVS and been intrigued by their subs and like the home trial option.
I ended up with the Paradigm because of a good deal through a local dealer and have been impressed with its performance. It has room correction and an app to control all settings which is really nice.
So sticking with Paradigm seems like a good plan.
Then the question becomes should I go with the x12 to get the extra extension, or a second x10 for easier integration as many of you have suggested? |
I see no real value in having them match. Obviously. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 In fact, the main benefit of multiple subs is more small modes adds up to smoother bass. So to the extent they are different this creates even more variation in response, which for low bass is good. That is why mine were made 2 ported, 2 sealed, and they work beautifully together with the one ported isobaric Talon Roc sub. That is 5 subs of 3 different types. Just running out of new things to say about how misplaced an idea it is to talk about the importance of matching, integrating, timing, etc. There is a grain of truth to it. But it is so much less important than sheer numbers of subs as to pale in significance. |
Then the question becomes should I go with the x12 to get the extra extension, or a second x10 for easier integration as many of you have suggested? Depends on what kind of music you listen to and how loud. If your current X10 is loud enough on its own, you will be fine adding a second X10. If you need the deeper extension, then you should sell the X10 and go with two X12's. Integration happens at the crossover point, so mis-matched subs won't matter, but the benefit of multiple subs only happens in the frequency range that both subs share. So if you have music that goes lower than the X10 can reproduce, then you will not get the benefit of having two subs in that range. |
No, it does not work that way. One of the many things people realize when they get a DBA is how much extreme low end information there is even on recordings with zero low bass that can be heard as such. Similar to the way extreme ultrasonic high end cannot be heard as such, yet does create a greater sense of realism on all recordings, extending all the way down into the low bass region.
These simplistic views of sound and what we can hear are really, uh, simplistic. |
Generally speaking, it doesn't matter (unless one of the subs is really terrible). I recommend you take a look at Rythmik's line of subs for music. SVS makes good subs also, you won't go wrong either way. More is better when it comes to subs, unless you're in a really small room. |
I’d go with the bigger second sub. As mentioned above, matching exactly isn’t as much of an issue with subs, but that added bass down to 20Hz or so could add some real magic in an expanded soundstage and better imaging along with better depth. Again, I’d try a PB1000 Pro because it’s literally free to demo at home and the value is very high. Best of luck in whatever you decide, but I think you’re really gonna enjoy having two subs no matter what you choose.
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It is better that the subs match for proper integration with music due to tonal and sound pressure variations due to driver and cabinet size which effect the sound greatly.
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Strangely I've done both. My second sub was the same as my first and they are placed at the front. After reading about the benefits of four, I purchased a pair for my rears that might be considered inferior. To be honest, the improvement is terrific even though there is a mismatch.
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Just got back in. Using Paradigim on the surround sound setup for my footboard based second bedroom system. Center channel and bookshelves in all white. Using a Boston sub and HSU 15” sub for that setup. Really love it. That HSU sub also serves my emerging 2 channel wall and the long theater wall with 3 other subs. Only two of those match each other but they are all 3 the same band. The two matching are sealed and go to 18HZ. The other of the same brand goes to 23 while the Boston stops at 38 (who woulda thunk it the way if satisfies in HT duty. The HSU goes to 16 at I believe 16 HZ. It’s a hybrid with EQ and 2 ports that came with plugs for tighter 22HZ musical notes. This is somewhat happen stance, or what happens despite planning. Good deals came and away my money went and with the new products coming well before the more than month away promised shipping dates. The $1 hold charge for my preorders lasted 2/12 days before a month magically went away and a phone call confirmed my products were shipping that day and seeing the full charge on my card was indeed a legitimate transaction. I wanted at least two matching subs in this system since the 90s. Getting back in the hobby with my then 14-year-old son this most recent May, and redoing his gaming rig with the best curved 65” monitor 2021 could get us, was the impetus to at least start adding subs and pulling 3 old receivers out of mothballs to examine exactly how much the dust of antiquity had done to their sex appeal but most importantly, examine them for real use by mixing with old Krell, Thiel and whatever else that was now dirt cheap but offered excellent 2 channel use, but not much else. Well, the sex appeal of the 90s gear is the warm and fuzzy factory for me and helped to rekindle my 2 channel love ask my Infinity Modulus 90 system look as good as it ever did with no wear and tear or marks, nicks, scratches, paint swirl or deteriorated grills or stand. Still have the spikes in sealed bags. But that beautiful and timeless Darth Vader looking face is a face I love as much as Day 1. They have delivered on everything promised and now I am returning the favor to finally get them some new dance partners.even though the matching is few, the dancers are the right crew if you want to eliviate all your bass problems. All these subs have a myriad of controls and moves, if you will. They could be set and forget (yes, I know -forgotten- but paying respects to Ron Popiel) , but I’m in the middle of painting the large room and redoing everything and anything to give me two HTs and a separate 2 channel wall with its own seating. It’going to be cramped at 24” x 22” with a step down entryway lasting 15’x 3’ wide that leads to an entry nook and a separate 3’x5’ notch in the corner that adds to the space (dual walk-in closets too on the back wall opposite the longwall where everything except rear speakers will live . And back there, I will try to hide two good small subs but nothing anemic like something with micro in the name or something that uses the word but in the ad copy. Paradigm will make a good choice as they will scheme up with the old mini high line 55” 4K TV that but sits at the foot of my bed on the red and black norstone 48” 3 tier rack. With the new subs, it will make a great little compact Lo -Fi HT but now, with all 5 subs, it sounds like a giant killer, most notably, I no longer covet the B&W speakers I once really wanted and thought for sure I’d own. It’s possible they could be something beyond the parts of all matching subs, very possible. But what I’ve happen upon is: a clean little modern bass loving band of brutish, smooth and mostly mesmerizingly beautiful members in this rag tag happenstance assemblage of formerly single bass boxers l making their way in the world just fine without me. But I like to to think the sum of these parts is far more satisfying than a bunch of synchronized clones each born with a silver spoon in its mouth waiting for Johnny and the gang to bring the meters, beer, pizza and a few of the entertainer friends Johnny knows from his day job as the DJ for Molly Brown’s 3xs a week on the busy nights. |
Hello,
I have blended two totally different subs together with great success. This was talked about not to long ago. In fact you may want a sub that can reach down a little further. I am now running to JL Audio F110s with the JL Audio CR1 crossover and two REL T9s. MC and several others have a lot of good advice on setup. By going to 4 subs it made a huge difference in the bloom but also the sound blends across the whole room. The entire frequency, not just the bass. |
So 2 subs is definitely my max. Seems like there are differing opinions on to pair or mix and match. Seems to me a Paradigm x10 and x12 might work pretty well together. I would think in the frequencies where they overlap that they would blend well and the the x12 would take me down to 20hz.
Or in the shared frequencies, would they not blend too well because they are different drivers?
Has anyone mixed subs with two driver sizes and had a bad result? |
Seems like there are differing opinions on to pair or mix and match.
Has anyone mixed subs with two driver sizes and had a bad result? The majority of posters say mixing subs is not an issue. I'm guessing that those are people (like me) that have actually done it. I have two Rythmik F25 subs (2 X 15" drivers) and two SVS SB13 Ultra subs (13.5" drivers) and the result is very good! |
I haven’t had any problems with my B&W and SVS subs. I don’t think it makes a difference in terms of subs. |
You can mix and match subs…but, you need to measure the in room frequency response at the listening position to see how the varied bass settings effect the sound. Ideally, something that gives you a visual to see in real time your settings as they change to help level out the curve. I use an old school Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer Equalizer with a microphone and test tons to see in real time how all of the sub settings blend at the listening spot. I shared a link with my rudimentary measuring setup with a before measured response curve and after…note how much flatter it is after tweaking the settings. Not all flat curves are ideal, especially if you desire more bass and care a little less about microdetails. It is a personal choice, but it is important to eliminate as much drone, boom, and resonating bass which helps increase listening pleasure. https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/I_6Rau1zQcOKOTfMsFSy1A.-ZXzEvmp6JEbBSJWepTMIw |
