Vibration control is such a huge, and hugely important, topic it deserves a thread of its own. There was a time I thought it nuts to say such a thing. In fact I wrote a letter to the editor excoriating them for wasting my time on the goofy idea that clamping components between shelves could have any effect on sound at all, let alone be worth spending good money on a rack designed to do just that. This was the Michael Green rack, and thanks to my closed mind and dismissive attitude I never did bother to try and find out for myself if there was anything to it.
Important Lesson Number One: Don't be so quick to dismiss things just because you can't understand how they could work.
Couple years later unpacking a McCormack DNA1 amp the Owner's Manual says the included spike can be used to improve sound quality. Well now. As crazy as it still sounded this time its Steve McCormack, and he's already given me the spike, so what do I have to lose? Much to my surprise it did indeed improve the sound. Not a lot. But definitely more detail, clarity.
This is very early 1990's. There is no internet. I know precisely zero audiophiles. Until stumbling upon this one guy at work who says oh yeah and put your CDP on a phone book, and another one on top. Which sounded even crazier but the guy was serious and this being the 90's we all had phone books laying around so I gave it a shot. This time it was only the most barely perceptible improvement, but it was there. If you really listened for it. So not much. Then again, free. Wrapped some fabric around it, ran the CDP like this for quite some time.
Around this time I'm shopping for components for my new listening room when this guy is more excited about something called Black Diamond Racing Cones than the amp or whatever he was trying to sell me. So I get 3 of these things and they're so much better than the phone book its hard to believe! Well, okay, it was a phone book. Got to compare against something, right?
These Cones are so good I take them to this Seattle audiophile club and show them around all excited and.... nobody cares. Except this one guy who goes on and on about how he has tried phone books, tennis balls, racquet balls, styrofoam, cones, spikes, on and on everything under the sun, he's tried it all there's just no way he's gonna be impressed- he makes this very clear to me- but okay you're the new guy let me borrow em why not. But they're not gonna work. No way.
Next day this guy calls me up gushing going on and on how great these are what are they again where did you find em how many can I get? I actually wind up becoming the Washington State distributor for Black Diamond Racing selling Cones, Shelf, all of it. This guy winds up like me, pretty much everything on BDR. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367
A lot of what I knew about vibration control back then was based on my own experience with BDR, and learning from owner DJ Casser. This resulted in what became my guiding principles of vibration control: Mass, Stiffness, and Damping.
Great, what I was hoping. So here's my idea: springs between the speakers and the stands. Don't run! Do it like I'm gonna say and they will look almost exactly the way they do now, BUT they will sound a lot better and no more problems with the stands.
First get one set of Nobsound springs for every TWO speakers you want to do. One set will do 8 corners. You can do other springs but that will mean a lot more work for hardly any money saved.
Cut holes in the stands at the corners where the speakers will go. Hole saw or router. If the stands are as thick as they look you can router them out deep enough and just drop the Nobsound springs in. You will have to experiment to find the right number of springs. Then cut the hole depth just right and the speakers will float on springs with only a barely visible space just above the stands.
You do not need a lot of space since the springs only move microscopically when playing music. It will just take a bit of trial and error to get them level at the right height. The springs will pretty much take the stands out of the equation, especially if you put some furniture felt stick-on thingies under their feet.
With those speakers you will probably only need 3 or 4 springs per corner, meaning one set of Nobsound will do 8 corners. The springs fit snug into a 1/4" hole. Could hardly be sweeter.
Perfect timing, I was just getting to springs. This was a real hard sell for me. Rixthetrick had some pretty good arguments that made me think. Max had some very compelling videos that made me think even more. But thinking has gotten a lot of guys including me in trouble. Only one way to know for sure. Rick was very generous and found me the right springs on eBay for me to check it out.
Not any springs will do. They do need to be sized for the weight of the component. Its kind of like what John is saying above, there's always going to be a resonant frequency and you want it to be very low ideally according to Townshend around 2Hz.
I still was skeptical. It just seems a speaker on springs, when the cone moves one way the whole loudspeaker is going to move the other way, and there goes your dynamics and transients.
But unlike the few others who never acknowledged these problems both Max Townshend and Rick did admit this does happen. Because, physics. Kind of silly when people try and deny physics. (See: using just one sub.)
What I was missing though, and what engineer Max points out, is that yes you do lose a tiny amount to that but you gain something much more valuable- a huge reduction in ringing.
Ringing is the term for when the whole system is set vibrating and continues to vibrate long after the transient signal that started it all. Ringing is why we want speaker cabinets to be extremely solid and inert. But then we put them on a floor that is anything but. Then we make it worse by using spikes to couple the speakers to the floor.
As we already know the idea of spikes as diodes and vibration being a one-way street is unfounded. Vibrations go both ways. Once the floor starts vibrating it sends those vibrations right back up through the loudspeaker cabinet to the driver.
At least this is the theory. When it comes to stuff like this I'm pretty agnostic. Too many wonderful theories just don't seem to pan out. My grandmother was from Missouri, the "show me" state, so its in my blood. So I tend to say, nice story. Show me.
I use machined depleted Uranium cone vibration dampeners with 98 durometer virgin polyurethane vibration absorbers. These rest on 4" thick Italian marble slabs which themselves have an additional set of the above mentioned. It is not just the induced mechanical noise from your devices but even the road close by produces measurable audio distortion when vibrations from passing vehicles create ground resonance.
My vibration control is a concrete foundation and a solid wood antique coffee table my gear (save power amps) sit on that is built like a tank that cost me $30 in the used furniture shop in Northern Alabama years ago. Power amps are on a separate antique wood stool with dense padded top. Everything is crystal clear. No feedback to be heard playing records ever and gear sits just a few feet in front of speakers and sub in that room. The background is very black and quiet, would never know there is a tube pre-amp in play. Never had such a clear and robust setup in my life prior. It took some time and effort to identify the issues and address them. I constructed a mu-metal cylinder that my low-level step up transformer sits in to protect it from EMI mainly from HVAC units outside on other side of wall and any other nasty EMI sources that might be nearby, but that has nothing to do with physical vibration. There can be noticeable hum without the mu-metal shield.
Then I have my big Ohm F5s in the next room connected via in wall speaker wire. Those sit on built in castors. Again, couldn’t be better.
Upstairs on the second floor, with suspended plywood floors, its a bigger challenge. Smaller Ohms sit on Auralex Subdude platforms. Gear in a fairly sturdy Ethan Allen audio cabinet behind wood-framed glass doors. Still not perfect in comparison to downstairs, mainly due to the floor, but under control.
Everyone’s case is a bit different. Key is to identify the issues properly first, then address as needed. Do it right and the payoff can be huge. It need not cost a fortune. There are many ways to skin a cat.
Everyone’s case is a bit different. Key is to identify the issues properly first, then address as needed. Do it right and the payoff can be huge. It need not cost a fortune. There are many ways to skin a cat.
I think that is very true and well said...
But all of us need to take care of the mechanical embeddings problem, in a way or another.... Not only that but the electrical grid embedding problem is also there and the very important acoustical embedding passive treatment but also active control...
Indeed there is many ways , and many solutions possible, with each one his merit....
But underestimating the mechanical embedding(vibration and resonance controls) is detrimental to ALL system.... The other 2 embeddings are on the same level at least of importance.....Those who negate that only reflect their lack of experience, or experiments, or simply interest.... Only upgrading money most of the times cannot solve this problem magically without thinking sorry.....
I have Vibrapods here and there (and some older sorbothane pads under a CD player) and my system is clear as a bell. The pods keep things from sliding around...perhaps their greatest benefit...my Linn Basik does well with its large rubber cup feet (original, and my Dennis Had amp also gets by quite well with its original little rubber "cup" feet) and since it's near a sub one might think that affects it, and one would be wrong. That old Linn isn't bothered by foot falls (although energetic stomping near it isn't advised) or anything else...Vibrapods are also directly under my Heresy IVs on 1/2 inch fibre and felt discs...perfect.
Bass and high frequencies better accuracy is one thing to go for sure....
But accuracy of timbre instrument is the most difficult to reach....This accuracy is not the results of only some relative balance between frequencies, it needed more work than just my first fine tune set of springs because of some structural properties of my speakers not taken into account by them (internal resonance ? )...
I reach it when i add 2 set of springs boxes on each speakers; one set directly on my multi layered sandwich platform under the speakers, another set of 4 on top of the speakers under the damping and compressing load of concrete on top of my speakers ( 75 pounds)...
Before adding the seconds set of 4 boxes, the accuracy of high and balance between high and bass was good with fine tuning the load....But unbeknownst to me, the timbre accuracy was not optimal...
Then thinking about an idea suggested by rixthetrick,i was thinking about some way to "fine tune the damp mass" of the concrete load relatively to the mass of the speakers, like for some building but it was complicate for me to make exactly that happen...
Instead i decide to add a second set of springs, on top of the speakers under the damping load; this addition of a second springs set to the first set under the speakers work beautifully because of the difference between them of a compressing force equal to the weight of the speakers...This asymmetry between the compressing force working on the second set of 4 springs boxes give an "elasticity" of reaction to the structure of the speakers, and work marvel....
Astounding difference in timbre perception and imaging....
Why ?
It is perhaps a greater decrease of this ringing effect which was suggested by millercarbon or a decrease in the internal standing wave of resonance linked to the structural properties of the speakers.... I am not a scientist and cannot be sure about that...
But the results are astounding.... I consider my mechanical embedding control task now completed and final with these multi layered sandwiches and double set of springs asymmetrically compressed....
Vibration control is a balancing act. They do this with all musical instruments. Some parts are designed to vibrate a lot, others for stiffness to better control vibrations. Think neck and frets on a guitar. Craftsmen fine tune this with layers of lacquer. It all contributes to the sound.
Its just for some reason when it comes to our systems we don't think of it this way. But it sure seems to be the case. Things I've been doing lately seem to point in the direction of suspending things freely.
Everything's a trade off, finding the right balance. Springs alone can leave things free to resonate, and maybe at times too much. My turntable and other stuff sounded great on springs. Until one day there was a deep drone or rumble. It took a lot of chasing down to figure out it was some kind of resonant feedback. The slightest damping of the springs under the turntable would make it go away.
As John posted above, Max Townshend being an engineer figured out:
The ideal is to have the resonant frequency as low as is possible, ideally around 2Hz in both the horizontal and vertical planes and with a damping ratio of about 0.16. This will give an attenuation of about 25dB at 10 Hz increasing at 20dB per decade above. This will ensure excellent isolation for the deleterious audio system vibrations which are from 5Hz to 500Hz.
This fits with what happened with my turntable. At least to the extent I'm able to see with my eyes, not having anything to measure this with. But it sure seems to fit with everything I am able to see and hear.
millercarbonOP6,501 posts11-09-2020 4:29pmGreat, what I was hoping. So here's my idea: springs between the speakers and the stands. Don't run! Do it like I'm gonna say and they will look almost exactly the way they do now, BUT they will sound a lot better and no more problems with the stands.
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The idea is great, my problem is cutting the pockets. That is apatong wood, (hard) it takes a water cooled bit to cut it.. When I got the legs a mod per leg was, 30.00. I got a hold of the guy to cut the pocket now over 50.00 per pocker 5% accurate. 36 times 50 = 1800.00. There is a one time set up charge of 200, or 250.00. 2100.00 total. LOL the legs were 49-79.00 per set of four...
Shems, inner/outer springs for up and down.. Are the springs your using progressively wound? Tighter at the bottom, than at the top? OR Same wrap all the way down?
I'll just rebuy and have the mods done and have two set one with and one without. If I decide to go that way... I can dress the space between the two pieces with a leather seal that will look quite nice, and used often as drawer seals, stops and the like...
I just have think it out.. That is a few quid.. I know the spring aren't that expensive. Getting them in the leg, AND still mounting the leg too. All the mounting holes would be removed by the spring bore. It would take at least 3 screws to secure the leg, or one through the center. More CNC work if I'm not careful..
Suppose I could drag out my duplicating table, for that.. Lot of time... For making gun stocks, guitars body and necks... Cutting weird stuff.. Just need a master to copy from...and add the water cooling pump, hoses, and return tray... I'm an analog guy, what can I say... :-)
What? Apatong looks exactly like the tight grain reddish brown exotic hardwood in my shop, extremely dense but it is only about as hard as aluminum and can still be cut with router or table saw, you just have to be careful to feed slower. Had mine forever because I hate working with it- one mistake and it takes forever to sand out, if you even can! If you have wood harder than that.... man that's some hard wood!
Nobsound springs are 1/4" dia and about 1" high. If the speakers are softer on the bottom you could drill 1/4" holes about 1/4" deep and slide the springs in there, however many you need per corner. Only other thing I can think of would be to screw an L-bracket on the side. Wouldn't look quite as good but would only need to stick out 1/4" and you could paint or even cover with a bit of trim.
Would be nice if you could use springs. They sound better than anything else you could use for this. Or stick furniture felt on the feet and call it good?
If you have wood harder than that.... man that's some hard wood!
One of the hardest in the world and weathers like Teak.. It is used for wooden decks on wood top low beds and really good steak bed gates. Wooden legs (when painted) CNC and duplicating sculpture. Yea it will tear up a blade pretty quick, BUT I've used it for years, as trim on baltic Birch. The longer it ages, the more of a chocolate color it turns.. Can't dent it.. Tear a car to pieces with a 1" 24" stick.. Beat it to pieces, LOL
Gotta use water.. It stinks to high heaven too...cut dry.. really stinks...
So the springs are only 1/4" around, that is tiny.. I can bore that with a reamer or a bit...and finish the pocket with flat cutter, shim with 1/4 washers.. That's easy, I was thinking 2-3 inch bore.
Ordinary 1/4" drill bit, springs fit perfect. Only need to go 1/8" deep, as far as the springs are concerned. If you need to go deeper to have them recessed for looks then drill again oversized so the springs don't rub the sides.
Getting back on track. The springs I've been using lately are just that, springs. Some from eBay, different sizes, are just plain springs. Nobsound are just springs too, only with caps or footers drilled out to hold them in place. Point being they are all bounce, with no damping. Like Max said his engineering indicates an ideal .16 damping.
Didn't seem to matter with speakers. Plain springs under the Moabs worked fine. Under the subs, ditto. Even under the turntable, seemed to work fine- at least at first. Got some more, put them under the power conditioner. Speaker cables, power cords and interconnects are on rubber bands. Virtually the whole system is now suspended, one way or another. Not exactly free to move- a lot of the cables are pretty stiff. They will restrict free movement and at the same time feed vibration into the component. Hard to avoid. But for the most part it is all suspended or if you prefer isolated.
One day I notice this drone or rumble. It happened on a lead-in where there's no signal so I thought it was really bad rumble and my bearing or motor or something was shot. But no. Darn noise would come and go. One time I got up to go check and while walking to the turntable it stopped. Went away. I froze. No rumble. Okay. Went to sit back down, came right back!
Took a very long time to realize this was undamped resonance feeding back into the turntable. At just the right frequency the system would be excited and with no damping it would feed back and amplify until it was just super alarming loud.
Even a small change anywhere in the system would stop it, like me moving my weight around the room. Tried different things, the best so far is to add a 5th leg under the table this one with a very small bit of sorbothane that eliminates the feedback.
MC, I got a question, are the granite slabs, your using, MMG (man made granite), or quarried? Quarried, granite, has a few different signatures.. ay? Quartz vibrates, right? I know when I use to show up and they were doing core samples, seeing how to reinforce the substrata. Pretty impressive what Old mother nature can put together.
Some of that stuff can ring like a flippin bell... Looks nice, though..
Caliche, natures concrete... Las Vegas...Bisite, and Granite in NY, everything ELSE in between..
I have always been supportive of room treatments. Even in my college dorm room I used carpet samples tacked to the walls and heavy cloth tacked into the corners of ceiling/wall. I have kept at that ever since, albeit with much nicer applications than carpet samples tacked to the wall. I got into AC power cleansing a couple of years ago. I just upgraded to a Niagara 3000. Earlier this year I learned more about vibration control and have been applying that to my system using Symposium Acoustics products. Next upgrade is a Symposium Acoustics equipment rack, shipping out to me after this weekend. I have learned a lot about vibration control but realize there is plenty more to learn. This thread is a very good one for me. I am reading it daily. I hope there are some new additions in the next few days. I'd like to hear more from others as well as MC. I'm always looking to learn. And the fun is to apply it and hear the positive results. Thanks guys.
@bigkidz yes indeed, buying better components delivers better audio quite well. But then, if you "go through all of this stuff" you realize much superior results than just plopping down the components, connecting them, and turning on the system. Try these things discussed in this thread and you will be amazed at the benefits. You will hear your music like never before. Truly stunning.
The feedback problem I had with springs under the turntable is a damping problem. Its a problem because there is a certain range of frequency and amplitude level where we want the spring to be a spring. To let the shelf or component move freely. Damping factor by definition interferes with this. But we do want damping, just a certain very well defined amount.
This is where the story catches up to where we are in the real time here and now. Because the last week or so I’ve been looking into this and now happy to say have found a really good solution: Townshend Pods.
So good in fact I’m done writing for the night, got some listening to do which is a whole lot more fun.
bigkidz2,358 posts11-13-2020 8:49amProbably better to just buy better components then to go through all of this stuff to begin with IMO anyway.
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Ok I’ll bite.. which one? We’re all on a journey, which one first, or just dump the whole bunch? What do you recommend? What does better mean?
Guys like me, I’m not the rich kid on the block, or the "new one either".
Some stuff I CAN’T or would NEVER pay the price, others would..
I dropped off a guy last night.. Give me the system he had, I’ll take it. BUT If I had to pay for it, I’m sorry to say, under 1/10th of his budget and that’s a push, for me.. It’s more like 1/20th. 25,000.00 is a lot for me.. I have lots of vintage gear, But what I listen too, That’s a whole different thing.
I’m handy though, REAL handy, I’ll do my own, AND still get happy..
At least half the upgrades moves and more are the result of ignorance and comes from a great frustration more than from the necessity to do so....
It is my experience.... I cannot prove it but i listen to my 500 used vintage system smiling at any possible upgrade like it would be unnecassary...( diminishing return law)
Embed rightfully anything before upgrading something....
The greatest increase in S.Q. comes from the 3 embeddings implementation not from an upgrade of an electronic component most of the times.... There is exception for sure.... I will never pretend than a 20,000 speakers is on the same footing than a bad pair of cheap speakers for example....
A low cost amplifier cannot trash a Berning amplifier for example, even my extraordinary Sandui AU 7700 will be beaten....
But rightfully embedded i will live with it without even looking for any replacement....
If the piano sound does not come from the speakers no more and inhabit the room in 3-d, you are there with the Sansui or with the more refined Berning..... The difference really comes from a rightful embedding more than from the amplifier upgrading..... The 2 amplifiers are myth and legend on their own anyway and the 2 are very good....
Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking....
Vibrations and resonance controls are the beginning and the more easy task between the 2 other embeddings (electrical and acoustical)....Try to think about it.....This thread is an occasion to do so....Dont upgrade before thinking....
Well said, I’ve select my stuff for what it can do. Doesn’t mean I’ve pulled ever last drop out of it. I’m just now 9/10 of the way done BEFORE set up, in 2 30 year old rooms. BOTH were built with sound in mind.. I just had to retire to get it the way I like it. My two hand built the house, I’m gonna finish the house...
Vibration was addressed when we poured the foundation, I used friction piers on stem walls. Double up on the girders and floor pinning..
Electrical, the friction piers are the house BOND, the earth ground is hooked to every pier... Every pier is 10 feet in the ground.. Every 4 feet.. 16 piers outboard, 6 piers inboard.
Acoustics were addressed when built.. Front wall is a 3 foot deep 15 foot long, 8 ft tall BASS trap and equipment racks. That area is a solid concrete foundation 2 feet deep, 3 foot wide and 15 foot long.. You just open the THREE trap to access equipment, and or dampen the room real quick.. depends on the music..It was and is used for a closet, BUT that wasn’t the original intent, Don’t tell the wife..
NOW to clean the crap out of here and get it done.. No one is gonna do it for me... Everything is here...
I been collecting stuff for this swan song for years...IT’S TIME..
Stupid heart attacks, slowed me down, I feel GOOD...Pain in the stomach/back to tell the truth... WEIRD...
I was use to givin’ them, not having them... :-)
SAY MC how the heck are you doing? You all fixed up now or what? Still reelin' about the Turnover I bet.. I am.. Weird year!!
The concepts of mass loading and internal damping of stereo gear is often overlooked and underappreciated. First, massive shelving units should be utilized. I use the Mapleshade Samson Racks. They are TANKS! These racks are spiked through a thick carpet into the cement floor
FTR, I use 100% ModWright products. All my components and speakers have heavy weights placed on top of them (usually Lead and Brass). The total weight ranges from 25-50 lbs. I use brass cones underneath to prevent lateral shifting. These
cones interface with 2-4” Maple Plinths which are further isolated from
the actual Maple Shelves by using dampening devices. Also utilize some
Sorbothane footers to further dampen self generated component
vibrations. In addition, my CD Player and Pre Amp have inverted
cones on the top of the chassis. I tighten my adjustable shelving which
sandwich and squeeze the components between shelves. The component does not move in any direction. Period! My Amp uses a floor plinth arrangement with heavy weights on top.
The
next step is to deaden the chassis and internal components to the
maximum extent possible. I use Noico 80 mil Car Sound Deadening
Material on the unit’s internal sides, bottom and top, in multiple
sheets where it is feasible. I also dampened any component or part which
would accept a treatment. Transformers and CD Drives for instance. Added silicon rings and brass hexnut “crowns” to my small signal tubes. So far I’ve treated my Amp and CD player. Will do the Pre Amp in the near future.
Finally,
I placed a dab of RTV on the top of every capacitor I could reach. Caps
are probably the most sensitive component to vibration.
A lot of people seem to think mass loading and component damping can take the life out of the music. My experience has shown that this is not the case. The above tweaks have GREATLY elevated the sound quality, imaging and soundstage in my system. The bass is super tight, articulated and thunderous. I actually had to reduce the volume of my subwoofers. All this was especially evident after I treated the CD Player. This is the logical place to start treatments.
Admittedly, quite a bit of man hours are required to undertake this project. But the rewards are WELL worth it!
With the speakers using a fine tuned damping and compressive load, with one set of 4 springs boxes under the speaker and another set on top of the speaker and directly under the load and then fine tuning the load is the key to an increase S.Q. because the difference on the applied compressive force between the 2 sets of springs decrease also the power of the negative internal resonance of the speaker...
Then the load is not only there to damp the speaker but also to work as a compressive force differently on 2 points: under of the speaker and on top of it, creating then an elasticity in the speaker reaction to his vibration and internal resonance also....
I am not a scientist but it is only my explanation...
I'm a bit late to the game with isolation having only tried Herbie's products. They used to work for me and after a few rounds of component changes, the magic just wasn't there. In fact, those footers were having a negative effect so I stopped completely with isolation and relied on my solid maple media stand and rack, allowing the mass of it to do the trick.
@nonoiseI'm glad you say this because I tried a bunch of the Herbies footers about 10 years ago and it was the exact same experience. They made a difference to the sound that was very noticeable, the problem was it made things sound worse.
My theory is soft jelly like footers do not allow the resonances of the component to ground away from the chassis, it keeps it trapped in the component.
Since then I have found Stillpoints footers on maple shelf/platforms is the best combination - but boy are those Stillpoints expensive (and worth it).
@agisthos Like you, I looked around and tried out some Isoacoustic Oreas and have been happy ever after. Not as expensive as your Stillpoints but they do it for me.
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