Dear Maril555: +++++ " The reason, I want to make a change from DD TT to belt drive is just to try a different approach. " +++++
IMHO from that approach you can choose any decent BD alternatives out there and you will hear a different performance, not better but different.
MS is a " heavy " regarded unit in a wrong way because has no merits for it. It has a decent bearing with a decent Panasonic/Technics motor, power supply and control unit are very bad and needs to be rebuilded for it can achieve top performance, all its platters are way resonant and like all havy mass TTs ( vintage or toady units designs. ) are way colored because you can't control the heavy platter mass internal resonances when in movement. High mass TTs are very good for the " eyes " and for the audiophile " rookies " but not the best for real music lovers and persons that has a decent music sound knowledge level.
Your SP-10 could gives you a better performance in " naked " fashion, this is with out plinth.
I favor the Peterayer adivise on the SME 20/3 that even that is a BD design is not a heavy mass design and even that was not designed for the " eyes " has very good performance: accurate and neutral one, very low colorations. Same for the SME 30. These SME designs were always under-rated because are " ugly " to the eyes but IMHO are way better that almost all the units named here.
I think that sooner or latter we will learn that we have to pay for quality performance in TT and not like today where many people pay for: kilos/kilograms!!
Is here in audio high-end where the price of a kilogram of metal ( aluminum/steel and the like ) has a price higher of a kilogram of real gold!! Sometimes some of us shows or our ignorance or our stupidity or our wealthy status where no one of these characteristics has no relatrionship with quality music performance level trhough an audio system. Yes, as you see it I showed my ignorance on that subject because I own MS and HML BD designs that today I almost no use it often.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Thuchan: +++++ " . So why going for a new design rather than the masters of performance (MS ). " +++++
Masters of performance?, IMHO MS on TT does not deserve that title. I know you like the MS heavy colorations but that does not means is a top performer by today standards, as I said designed for the eyes and nothing more. Has more problems that it can solve.
Yes, DD/Idler has not only lower lower distortions but different " colorations " that maybe does not goes with you but I think that your " world " is IMHO only your " world ".
Thuchan higher moving mass on TT means higher distortions/colorations. Till today IMHO no one high mass TT design was designed with the " right " blend materials to " disappear " the self/internal resonances on heavy moving mass designs and the MS was one of the worst down there.
Why do you think that the vintage DD designs ( Denon, Technics, EMT, JVC/Victor, Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony. ) IMHO outperform almost any vintage and today heavy moving mass BD designs? because the drive kind of design?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear friends: Controversies on the Raven here IMHO could be a little unfair for different reasons but was is unfortunated is that Rsf507 posted that always was interested and that after read this thread he will stay out of Raven!
IMHO we can't or is extremely hard to evaluate a TT as stand alone unit because the TT is only a link/part on a very wide audio chain where all those links in the chain are " culprit " of the final quality performance level.
We have to add here another critical subject and maybe this is the more important one: each one of us music/sound reproduction priorities/targets that normaly are not the same overall.
I know that some people like that german group Syntax always comes to almost any thread with an agenda as Dgdad posted and with Raven he as member of that german group always try to diminish in every way the Raven TT.
Now, one Raven " problem " that some of you are posting is that's unable to match the timeline speed accurately.
That could be or not ( some owners posted it match it. ) but I think there are other subjects that we have to take in count around what we are " hearing " or what we are experienced with our each one TTs:
as audiophiles IMHO no one of us know for sure if all the LPs we own were recorded accurately ( example. ) at 33.3333rpm or some one at 33.3332rpm or 33.34rpm and not only that but if were recorded accurately from the first groove through the last one in each LP.
Now, accuracy is a must to have on TT but as important is accuracy as is speed stability. Is it important that the Raven can runs at 33.3333....rpm? yes it is but in case it can't fulfil accurately and in case only can runs at: 33.33332rpm the most important issue here IMHO is not that speed unaccuracy but that that 33.33332rpm stay with out no single deviation in the short time ( groove after groove ) and through all the LP grooves.
I never had the opportunity to listen the Raven in my system but I heard it many times ( different models. ) and I can't say that something I don't like it was precisely because the Raven.
To follow blame the Raven IMHO do not help any one and could make more harm to some people like Rsf507.
There is no perfect TT and the Raven IMHO is way better than the stock MS RX-5000. I already posted why and one of the last posts here confirm it: Philb7777.
I have no agenda here as more of one here have it.
IMHO there is almost no engeeneering behind the RX-5000 other than " kilñograms " with no mercy. The motor was not made it by MS but Panasonic/Technics, the control unit electronics are really bad and that's why Philb7777 detected that the RX-5000 is worst on that speed subject than the Raven and I know is that way because I own the MS and I know several other RX-5000 ( I have to modify the electronics to stay in a decent way in that regards. ), the platter design is a " shame " for any TT, has no single way to dissipate any kind of resonances generated elsewhere: inside the TT and outside the TT ( kilograms does not works but only makes the things worst. Stupid kilograms!. ). The only " clever " characteristic on the MS is that cantilevered tonearm mount that gives facilities for almost any tonearm and four of them at the same time but because there is no " engeneering " behind the design they put those arm board in the worst place you can put on that design: exactly at the TT footers where those footers has no single way to damp nothing!!!
Yes, even that I own and respect MS items for its looking is one of the worst TT designs I saw in my audio life.
Anyway, Maril555 only can try something different on what he owns and with that target and as I already posted any alternative will be different for him and IMHO the Raven is a good one.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Maril555 wants only.....
Is the way to read, my mistake when writed.
R. |
Dear Maril555: Right, in my audio home system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Jaspert: As any one I made audio mistakes too but as only a few of us I'm willing to learn each single day and I did it with those " stupid MS kilograms ": did you? not yet?
Dear Thuchan, I don't want to use more work with " stupid kilograms " where exist other better " land to cultivate ". You already know that I don't like the same distortions that you like it. As me you need to learn and for that you need " to want " to learn.
Btw, fortunately I have not a Mexican group as your german group.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Peterayer: There is no Mexican group, things are that " the lion thinks that every one is like it ".
Problem with some persons like Thuchan is that read the posts but does not really read it and then can't understand it.
In the other side I think is not easy for Maril555 and for almost any one of us to have the opportunity to test both TTs in his system.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Jaspert: My experiences and opinion about MS was way before I knew them, you can confirm it through some posts by me.
With the german group or with out it the fact that the arm board in the RX-5000/8000 are mounted just/directly on the TT footers where exist no single way of internal/external damping on any kind does not change the wrong wrong TT design if for no other factors by that one that makes a heavy degradation to the cartridge signal. Every single resonance/vibrations of any type pass through that arm board/footers.
What in the hell has to do the german group or not?, that's a fact a nocive fact for any cartridge mounted down there and you know what: that's what you are hearing: heavy distortions. The fact that you enjoy it menas almost nothing but that you like those distortions even if are bad ones and you can't do nothing to disappear it.
I know that you as Thuchan don't learned yet about and likes that wrong design and you know what?: that second platter they use as Dave use too help in nothing to the arm/footers MS degradation focus!!!!!
I'm not against any honest person and certainly against no single audio manufacturer what I'm against is of any high distortion focus and I share my opinion about.
I know that like me we need to learn many audio subjects, some of us took more time to others but at the end the success on audio systems depends on that audio learning subjects.
I posted several times for several years that the main differences in between home audio systems is how high or low are its distortions and to improve our each one system we need to learn we need to be aware of several kind of system generated distortions and its precise focus. In the MS case the arm board is one of the generation of distortions focus and that's why today I almost avoid to make no single serious test of any audio item through my MS one.
Certainly you posted what is a misunderstood of whom I'm. I hope that with this could be more precise and clear why I posted what I posted here or elsewhere.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Maril555: Active subwoofers connected in true stereo fashion always are welcome in almost any audio system.
Thinking in " high voice " and if I was you I will connect those subwoofers running and crossing at around 80hz and the Duo subs running from 80 hz and up.
Now, if those JL are/have and can handle/run with high quality performance up to 170hz then I will by-pass the Duo subs. Normally good subs performs very well up to 100hz and maybe to run the JLs up to 170hz could be not very good idea. You have to check/test listen both options and decide.
IMHO the main target to achieve with active subs is not only better bass management but to achieve better mid-bass/mid-range and HF range. To achieve those targets the crossover frequency on the subs and the satellite is extremely critical as is to set up the right subs SPL in a way that the integartion be absolutely seamless/transparent where the subs appears only when the recording is asking for. This overall job take time and I mean time : not hours but several days and even weeks to be exactly " there ".
Only an opinion.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear Lotus340r: Nice post. Why I can't see analog rig on your Agon virtual system?, just curiosity.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
