MC Cartridge: Elliptical; around 0.5mv; track 1.25-1.75; Affordable
I ordered the AT33PTG/2, couldn't wait any more, thanks for the advice I couldn't wait for it will be here thursday, will try it via Bill's SUT when he brings his Denon 103 it's specs are nearly identical to the 20 year old ART2000mc, and I have read good things from owners on-line. I feel like I got out of jail now that this is over, unless it sounds like crap! |
I'm still considering others, meanwhile: This currently available MC specs are exactly what I like, does anyone have it, heard it, tried it, sent it away??? on ebay, $450. full specs shown https://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-new-Audio-Technica-MC-Cartridge-AT33PTG-II-AT-33-PTG-II/264129989611 AT website, $550. https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/265f6b3dd520a226/index.html this is a new thread so everyone sees this specific question. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/audio-technica-at33ptg-ii-mc-cartridge-anyone-have-it-or-heard-it thanks, Elliott |
yes, funny, we didn't get the novel, yet, the joke probably set some editing in gear. I would like to know what chackster and others think about re-tipping. one option is to find a nice model with elliptical and have Steve at VAS change to a variation of line contact for greater groove contact. Bill says Denon 103 sounds wonderfully musical, and I could change their conical tip to ___. anyone? |
by the way, the Roland is a bust, sounded horrible, tubby bass, no involvement in favorite recordings which sounded wonderful again when played on his current preamp back to back. he knew it had a problem, couldn't remember what, it might have been wrong resistors for his grace cartridge, .... but it sounded bad on CD and Phono, so it's needing doctoring It seems a shame, so I wrote to Jeff Rowland asking for a ballpark estimate to overhaul/upgrade it. I don't think I will use it, but perhaps have it fixed for my friend's birthday. |
lewm, chackster, thanks for the help. lewm, I am in a learning stage, there is a point, and you and others have been generous with your advice, so I link items to keep learning, possibly buy. Anything I learn helps me with the next thing I read about. If two cartridges are highly recommended, I will go with better separation/balance specs, yes it has to sound musical/involving, but good separation makes a difference, one of the true advantages of reel to reel. Luckily, I am 1/2 hr away from Steve at VAS, 1-1/2 hr away from Bill, and Bill knows Steve well, so I can buy a problem and have it fixed. always looking for comments/advice about things I find that are interesting, or raise questions. I just got a lot of answers/advice in 1 response from you and 1 from chackster. I am warming up to the idea of a SUT into my mx110z phono preamp rather than a separate phono preamp, as I love the tube phono in the mx110z, and it has two inputs. I would leave the shure/sas/boron on the long side arm, and put the MC ___? on the rear Acos. Then, when I play mono, off comes the mc, on goes the grado mono. Acos is a snap to re calibrate and the easiest VTA on the fly I have ever seen. I am hoping someone has some experience with the Sony xl-mc series, just to know about them. Onlt thing I read is one person said his was a poor tracker. As for dry suspension, chackster's answer fits my suspicion about old drying out. I ask Steve at VAS if he could work on a specific model cartridge I find tempting, before I write to the seller. He said avoid Dynavector Karat, often much wrong inside, and that he could replace suspension of the stiff AT ART 2000mc. So, if Chackster thinks the AT ART 2000MC is a worthy contender, combined with very good separation, and tight balance, advanced shaft/tip, Steve to fix it, it then comes down to price. And, if vintage suspensions dry out, maybe I want a decent price of one needing a new suspension rather than one as old but 'still good'. I am not going in search of the holy grail, just trying to get and be smart with help here before I try something. |
thanks @lewm As I emailed to Elliott I wouldn't buy from the sellers with lower than 99% feedback score on ebay, especially if they can't even provide a high resolution image of the stylus tip. Also I wouldn't buy a used cartridge with stiff suspension. Wait for a perfect sample or just don't buy it. I remember i sold my ART2000 for about $650 but it was like new in the box with documents in mint condition, lightly used. I sold it after I bought something else (more expensive). I bought NOS Dynavector 23RS (MicroReach) in the box from ebay for about $450. Used cartridge must be perfect or it's not worth the money. |
Elliot, Basically this thread consists of you naming products you saw on the internet after suggestions were made by Chakster and others, with not much comment about whether you really want to buy it or can afford it or fit it into your system. That is what I meant when I wrote, "Is this a question?" My post came right after you posted a URL for a Jeff Rowland phono stage that your friend was going to give to you on longterm loan. If that happened, what more do you need? If you were to take possession of the Rowland, you would not be needing any SUT OR a pre-preamp. So what is all this about? "Channel separation" and "channel balance" are not a way to judge whether you will like the sound of a stereo cartridge. And my general advice to you is not to buy a "vintage" phono cartridge, because aging, even in the box, does affect cartridge suspensions. Chakster is a very experienced collector; he knows what he is doing and can get away with buying old cartridges. I've done it too. But I have also been "stiffed" once or twice. I don't think you want to start out with a major disappointment. My opinion is that HOMC cartridges are usually inferior to LOMC cartridges, MM cartridges, and MI cartridges. HOMC is at the bottom of my totem pole. But that is merely my opinion. You need a phono stage, preferably one that has both MC (high gain) and MM (low gain) phono inputs, so you can play around with cartridges of different types until you find out what you like in your system. Or of course you can use an MM stage plus or minus a SUT, to the same end. |
chackster, everyone thanks chackster for your help, now that I have upped my budget, the Audio-Technica AT-ART2000MC is a choice this one, seller says suspension is 'tight' https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details/649382460-audiotechnica-atart2000mc-cartridge-in-perfect-working-order/ is dried out suspension an issue for old cartridges/ advice? |
HOMC To save cost of pre-preamp, and extra unit in system, I hopped around looking at HOMC. Perhaps havs VAS change tip of a used one. I generally found, the channel separation is lessened in HOMC, with a few exceptions. i.e. this Dynavector DV-20a type 2, 3.6mv, sep only 20db https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynavector-Systems-Ltd-DV-20A-Type-2-high-output-Moving-Coil-MC-Cartridge-tested/303342229103 The Hana SH, shibata/alum 2.0mv, sep 28db seems like the highest sep in my budget. A SUT would get that up to go into mx110z phono eq https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hana-SH-High-Output-Moving-Coil-MC-Shibata-Phono-Cartridge-Authorized-Dealer/264679147741 I found the cool looking Sony XL-MC series, they have high sep 30db, tight bal 1.5db, https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-Altmark-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-XL-MC1/254641741592 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-XL-MC-3-Cartridge-With-FR-Headshell-In-Excellent-Condition/333437737354 https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-XL-MC3-MC-Cartridge/254246960065 this rare xl-mc7, shibata/boron went for $995. incl fees and del from Japan http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=t735366377#enlargeimg ................................ 1. any comments about HOMC separation 2. any comments about Sony XL-MC series? |
A SUT is nothing but a transformer. As such it is liable to faults associated with transformers used at the interface between any two stages. Most commonly an effect upon bass and extreme treble response in the form of attenuation or loss of detail. There’s no free lunch. Do some reading. The Denon transformers are “good”, but are the specs correct for your cartridge and your phono stage? |
uberwaltz that is a clever way to use it. what range signal strength input is this Denon au320 compatible with? .................................. If I go MC, main system, I will either need to boost just enough to go into McIntosh mx110z phono stage which I, and Bill think is wonderful. So, a SUT's range is important to learn about also. or separate phono stage for full boost/equalize and go into Cayin or Chase line In. |
audite84 thanks, great find. I no longer need a dual switchable unit, but I might in the future, and their single unit is an option. that is a very well put together phono preamp with full range of loading adjustments from front controls, and optional wood sides. https://www.audiolab.com/pro-ject-tube-box-ds2-tube-phono-preamplifier/?sku=PROTUBEBOXDS2SW&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl4v4BRDaARIsAFjATPlU_CXehkFukyUKH6KcQoCFCbG91R2hMTF0kQ9Mi4lUR12jgGzgcYkaAocsEALw_wcB |
I’ll be stopping by Elliots with my Denon AU-320 SUT, a stock Denon DL-103 with about 100 hours on it and a retipped DL-103S with a elliptical stylus fresh from Steve at VAS. Right now the DL-103 is on my JVC QL-A7 deck and I’m running it through the AU-320 SUT into my Audio Research SP8 preamp into a 47K load phono input. The DL-103 is a perfect match for the Denon SUT. The Denon SUT is designed for a 47K load. We will also be trying out an active MC phono preamp that he is borrowing from his good friend. Elliot has the perfect arm to try this all out on, his Acos Lustre 801! Mounted on his massive Victor deck with the TT81 motor it should really show what these carts are capable of. I’m slowly working on something very similar myself.This should be a good time and a chance for us all to learn. I’m looking forward to it. BillWojo |
iFi audio adjustable phono preamp $550. also has 3 switchable eq curves https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1350008-REG/ifi_audio_0303012_micro_iphono2.html |
jeff rowland's current Phono 'Conductor' https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/06/28/jeff-rowland-design-group-conductor-phono-preamplifier-review/ |
MM/MC Phono Preamp Mofi Studio Phono, $299. adjustable gain, loading, a mono switch I would use in the office, no need downstairs, on sale https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-preamps/Mobile-Fidelity-StudioPhono-Phono-Preamplifier-Cryogenically-Treated?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9IX4BRCcARIsAOD2OB1yUXgcEBsKqqQ4m9EfobhE_9e64AoOpLbzzMVvOpH67iby4mat4QwaAtqsEALw_wcB accessible external dip switches, compact size, lots to like. My friend has a Rowland Preamp he will give me on semi-permanent loan. He needs to find the interconnect cable to it’s separate power supply. Certainly not compact. He has many nice pieces of mine on semi-permanent loan. He will send me the model # later today. I think it is this one https://skyfiaudio.com/products/jeff-rowland-coherence-1-preamp |
Oh boy, what a bottomless pit, my arse hurts! resolved: better double budget to $800. tip to be advanced groove contact: LC, MR, SAS, Shibata aluminum ok, boron preferred, I avoid more brittle than that. mc boost to have adjustable loading tracking force, still like closer to 1.5g, hard to get with MC I see now. When I make a lot of effort, all this reading, jumping hither and thither, I want to GET something for my effort. I am doing my best to resist 'ADD TO CART'. I gotta wait till Bill brings two of his MC to listen to here, then IN or OUT? meanwhile, MI Moving Iron, the story makes sooo much sense, yet the resultant specs don't seem to indicate achievement of superior channel separation/balance ..., and the prices, forget Soundsmith. Perhaps Goldring, there is a UK supplier with a new 2400 for $500. Monster 6.5mv output, no mc boost needed. HOMC, today's research, better get a pillow to sit on. |
I certainly don't doubt the ears of you guys who say you have zeroed in on THE correct load for your MC cartridge. I have universally found that there IS a load resistance that begins to degrade the sound of an MC, usually one that is significantly less than 10X the internal resistance of the cartridge. Above that too-low value and at 10X or higher, I hear very little difference in relation to load impedance presented by the phono stage, but if there is a difference, I tend to prefer 47K, in fact. (I don't use 47K with every MC, just occasionally, for the very reason that I don't hear much difference once I get above 1000R.) This is using at one time or another my Atma-sphere MP1 (tubes), the J&R Phonolinepreamp (SS), or the Manley Steelhead (hybrid) with such cartridges as Koetsu Urushi, AT ART7, Dynavector 17D3, ZYX UNIverse low output version, and Ortofon MC2000 or MC7500. |
Count my vote for the Denon DL-301II. That is what I use, and I like it very much. My previous favorite cartridge was a Shure M91ED, which is similar family to your V15vxmr. The DL-301II is higher compliance than most current MC’s and more similar to the Shures. So if you like your Shure, I think you will really like the DL-301II. I found the Denon to be much more focused, more 3D, really a big step up from my Shure even with a JICO SAS stylus. But loading is critical. I’ve found 476 ohms to be optimal. Good luck!! |
Just my thoughts. Using a sut to try out MC carts is probably not the best way to start off unless you get VERY lucky. Careful matching of sut to MC cart is a lot more involved than pot luck. You would likely be better served with an inexpensive MC load adjustable Phonostage for your entry into the world of MC carts. For example my Scheu SL will work loaded at 100 ohms but is MUCH more lively at 430ohms. 1000ohms is just a little too much for it to my ears. But you need the flexibility to try and see for yourself IMHO. |
To OP, Should you decide to get another phono stage, get one with adjustable impedance to give you more flexibility when it comes to choosing which MC cartridge. Reading your post last night, I was thinking of recommending the Hana low output, but it needs at least 400 ohms, whereas the Cambridge Duo has a fixed 100 ohms. The Hana would work with 100 ohms, but would not sound best. Happy listening. |
To Clarify: MC Preamp: I sent the Cambridge Duo back, I will be trying a new to me MC cartridge temporarily using Bill's SUT, (and hearing a few of his MC cartridges) to see if I get over my long standing resistance to MC, so no mc preamp exists, anything can be matched to an eventual cartridge selection. I do prefer staying close to 1.5g tracking as a goal ................................................... my system is very resolving, anything right or wrong will be revealed, I just switched McIntosh SS for Tube amp/preamp last year, and all new to me TT plinth/spinner/dual arms with much help from members here earlier this year. solid foundation JVC Victor Large Dual Arm Plinth (7 layers, 70mm thick) https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649402362-victor-jvc-clp2d-rosewood-plinth-for-tt71-tt81-tt101-direct-drive-turntablerare/images/1737857/ JVC Victor TT81 Quartz Locked Direct Drive http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-81.html rear arm, Acos Lustre GST 801, changable headshell, now Grado mono, new to me MC will go here https://reverb.com/item/32656865-acos-lustre-gst-801-tonearm-rare Long Side Arm, 12.5" effective 'Blackbird' (cartridge fixed to arm, no headshell). shure V15vxmr body/jico boron/sas with brush here http://newartvinyl.ru/board/detali_proigryvatelja/tonarm_black_bird12_5_carbon/7-1-0-41 both arms into McIntosh tube tuner/preamp's phono 1 and phono 2 https://positive-feedback.com/Issue77/vintage_mcintosh_experience.htm I have a stronger grip on this than Charlton Heston had on his rifle. Cayin A88T Integrated Tube Amp (mki for 16 ohm taps) https://6moons.com/audioreviews/cayin/a88t.html Speakers: custom rosewood enclosures, electrovoice drivers from 1958 Fisher President Console: 15" woofer 15w, a 37lb beast https://reverb.com/item/2307415-electro-voice-model-15w-alnico-magnet-15-woofer-new-in-original-box-nos horn mid and horn tweet t350 https://www.ebay.com/itm/114194791589 original electrovoice crossovers and rheostats for brilliance and presence ............................................... Just finished new to me TT in my office, Mitsubishi Vertical Linear LT-5V. AT440ml now, will try MC here also https://www.vintageaudioexchange.com/product/mitsubishi-turntable-model-lt-5v IF I get hooked by MC, it will go in main system. For compliance, my instincts are the Acos arm will be best to try MC. .................................. It may seem I am being 'cheap' trying to stay below $400., but you have to admit, this MC world is full of ..., so a reasonably revealing start _____? thanks again for help with this |
Op Just my opinion but hdm suggestion of AT OC9XEN is likely going to be hard to beat for performance, price and matching to your present phono with fixed 100ohm input. I think the Denon is a big nono with your present phono and you would be most disappointed and put off through no fault of the cart itself. |
I'm not sure how to quantify the difference, but the Denon will be somewhat similar in some ways and better in others than what you have. The Hana will be clearly better than the Denon or anything you currently have. The Denon will be a somewhat lateral move and give you a taste of what MC is about, the Hana will be a noticeable upgrade (dependent on your equipment's resolving ability). |
Somewhere up this thread I read that your phono stage has a fixed input resistance of 100 ohms . Then I read that the Dynavector 301 has an internal resistance of 40 ohms. If both of those numbers are correct, and if you absolutely cannot change the input resistance of your phono stage, then this match is a no go. you want the input impedance of the phono stage to be about 10 times that of the internal resistance of the cartridge. This is a basic rule that you should commit to memory. It can be “bent” at the cartridge to phono stage interface but not by that much.What you would hear in this case is a dull sound and an apparent loss of gain. |
I was reading about that Hana, made me want to click 'add to cart', but not that much money 'yet'. not until I hear some magic beyond my beloved Shure/Jico SAS I like the Denon DL-301II more as I read users comments all over the web, and it fits my desired output at .4mv and light tracking force range 1.2-1.6g new via ebay, $300. https://www.ebay.com/itm/274398854460 |
At your budget the Denon DL-301 MKII is a good value. It might help if you gave a little more information about your system. If it's not that resolving, you might not notice a big difference between the carts you have, if it's highly resolving, it might point out some of the shortcomings of the DL-301 MKII. You should notice more detail and a smoother presentation and probably improved bass with the Denon compared to the Shure. I have no experience with the AT440ml. If you really want to get into MC, I'd suggest saving up and get a Hana SL, it's noticeably better than the Denon, but the Denon is a nice way to dip your feet in the water. |
specs of that Denon 301 seem right in my range Full specs: Format: moving coil type Output voltage: 0.3mV (1kHz 5cm / s in the horizontal direction) Playback frequency range: 20Hz ~ 60kHz (the graph in the Gramophone review on vinylengine showed it to be dead flat to within about ±1dB up to 45kHz, the maximum frequency they tested it to) 40Ω: output impedance Matched load: 100Ω or more (transformer 40Ω) Channel separation: 28dB or more (1kHz) Channel balance: 1dB or less (1kHz) Static compliance: 35 × 10 (to the power of) -6cm/dyne Dynamic compliance: 13 × 10-6cm/dyne (100Hz record measurement) Needle tip: 0.14 × 0.07 mm square solid diamond special ellipse needle Proper stylus force: 1.4g ± 0.2g good first step into MC? |
Elliott, I “dipped my toe” into MC with the AT OC9XEN that hdm recommended. I’m really happy with it and recommend it for lower/mid level TTs. My TT is nothing special - Pro-ject Debut Carbon with the platter upgrade - and I was using an Ortofon 2M Blue that had good clarity and decent soundstage, but was harsh. The OC9 made a big positive difference. Soundstage is larger with much greater depth, instrument/vocal imaging and separation are a big step up, and I gained a lot of warmth with slightly improved precision over the 2M Blue. The downside (if you can call it a downside) is that I now hear more rumble and noise from the Debut Carbon, so I’m looking to upgrade my TT after fitting the OC9. The cartridge improved the sound a lot, but also really brought out the TT’s limitations to my ears. Best wishes! Phasemonger |
That AT wouldn’t interest me. It’s just too basic a cartridge for a $350-$450 rebuild IMO. I would rather buy the new AT that I linked to than take a chance on that. IMO you want to look at late 80’s to early 90’s cartridges that fly under the radar a bit in terms of name recognition that were high end, sold for around $800-$1000 then and have good pedigree. I’m partial to the Accuphase and Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 and 2000 as they have low internal impedances and match well with my phono stage. I rebuilt a couple of MC 20 Supers (and prior to that a few Denon 103R’s) and they were decent, but not in the league of the Accuphase. I’m optimistic on the SAEC-I have a feeling it will slot somewhere in between the top of the line Hana and the Etsuros following a rebuild and I shouldn’t have much into it. Some of the Ortofon Kontrapunkts might be worth a shot if you can find a body in excellent condition for around $100. I’d possibly pay $100 for an Audio Technica Art 7 or 9 with a broken cantilever to take a chance on rebuilding one of those. Or a Denon DLS-1. Stuff like that. Bear in mind you MUST confirm that both channels are functional when buying cartridges like this. Retipping with a new cantilever/stylus and suspension is one thing, but attempting to repair broken coils, etc. can become very costly. The Denon is not a good match with your phono stage-40 ohm internal impedance and fixed 100 ohm load on your phono stage. And I am not sure that the Dyna can be repaired. It appears to be a diamond cantilever model and the cantilever is broken off quite deeply into the body. Others might know better and have an opinion. |
dynavector DV/Karat, broken cantilever, $130, usd + shipping, ... can this be fixed/ https://www.hifido.co.jp/19-20758-10254-00.html?KW=&G=0308&P1=&P2=&A=10&N=&Y=&CT=0&M=0&LNG=e&OD=0&O=0&L=50&SD1=0&SD2=0&SD3=0 |
denon 301 any respect? under $200, usd https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649627772-denon-dl-110-cartridge-and-headshell/ |
Elliott: Your phono stage has 59 dB of gain and 100 ohm which is pretty close to ideal for a .35 mV cartridge with a 12 ohm internal impedance IMO (others may differ-and lots here probably will-in their opinions but I feel that, in general, in many systems approaching 60 db of gain is probably just a bit too much for a .5 mV cartridge). And gain/impedance matching with lower output MC’s and phono stages is really critical I think. You’re better off with what would be considered a lesser cartridge and an ideal match with phono stage than a great cartridge which is mismatched with the phono preamp. Bill’s idea is a good one IMO. I run an Accuphase AC2 that his been retipped with a Namiki Boron cantilever and micoridge stylus but a boron cantilever and MR retip is typically $400-$450 on its own so you’re going to have to find a relatively inexpensive body unless you start retipping with aluminum cantilevers and lesser styli which would not interest me particularly. You can end up with a pretty impressive cartridge this way but budget might have to be extended into the $600-$700 range and you have to be a bit lucky and find the right body at the right price, which can take time. I have an SAEC C1 here that I may send off to Steve at some time that I acquired at a reasonable price. Chakster hates the idea of retips so be prepared: he will write a small novel trying to talk you out of it. ;) |
