MC Cartridge: Elliptical; around 0.5mv; track 1.25-1.75; Affordable

Please define affordable with a price range

VTF per se is not directly proportional to record wear, although it is a factor, and these days you can find MC cartridges with  “exotic” stylus shapes for under $1K. So, like jperry said, how much do you want to spend?

Audio-Technica ART-2000 LTD for about $600 or Dynavector KARAT 23RS MR for about $500 or lower if you're lucky. 

I am hoping to spend no more than $400 (which is why I said elliptical stylus). Just to dip my feet in the MC world.

anything good or bad about the MK66e?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/AUDIO-TECHNICA-SIGNET-MK66E-MC-MOVING-COIL-CARTRIDGE-MKN66E-MC-STYLUS-CASE/164256063552


MC will be compared to my two MM

primary: Shure V15vxmr body with new Jico SAS on boron with brush
secondary: AT440ml, original very lightly used microline on aluminum, no brush

New AT OC9XEN looks like a high value proposition at $350
if it’s suitable for your arm.

Mates well with your phono stage at .35 mV, better IMO than
a .5 mV cartridge.

Tracks around 2 grams but I don't see a problem with that, again, if 
it is a good match with your arm. 

hdm1

that is right in the ballpark. thanks

https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/87df786f71840bb9/index.html

I hope they never say it about me, however I like a cartridge with no nuts.

curious: why do you say .35mv is better than .5mv?

I just picked .5mv as a guide to end up within .3mv and 1mv range of the Cambridge, as an example.

Bill says get a good body with broken tip/shaft and have Steve at VAS put new stylus on it.

VAS is only 1/2 hr away from me, and I want him to bias my Cayin AT88mk1 amp (internal bias) so I have reason to go there, and my good friend's Grace has a functioning but bent cantilever

chackster

thanks, not to be argumentative, but the Dynavector output is ,25mv, the Cambridge says min .3mv, I have no idea, but my instincts are to get above the minimum, hence .5mv 

hdm1 said .35 better IHO, than .5mv

is there a link or 2 to some good article(s) about MC I should be reading?

Elliott:

Your phono stage has 59 dB of gain and 100 ohm which is pretty close to ideal for a .35 mV cartridge with a 12 ohm internal impedance IMO (others may differ-and lots here probably will-in their opinions but I feel that, in general, in many systems approaching 60 db of gain is probably just a bit too much for a .5 mV cartridge). And gain/impedance matching with lower output MC’s and phono stages is really critical I think. You’re better off with what would be considered a lesser cartridge and an ideal match with phono stage than a great cartridge which is mismatched with the phono preamp.

Bill’s idea is a good one IMO. I run an Accuphase AC2 that his been
retipped with a Namiki Boron cantilever and micoridge stylus but a
boron cantilever and MR retip is typically $400-$450 on its own so
you’re going to have to find a relatively inexpensive body unless you start
retipping with aluminum cantilevers and lesser styli which would not interest
me particularly. 

You can end up with a pretty impressive cartridge this way but budget
might have to be extended into the $600-$700 range and you have to be
a bit lucky and find the right body at the right price, which can take time.

I have an SAEC C1 here that I may send off to Steve at some time that
I acquired at a reasonable price.

Chakster hates the idea of retips so be prepared: he will write a small
novel trying to talk you out of it. ;)

something like this?

http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=h486259196#enlargeimg

denon 301 any respect? under $200, usd
https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649627772-denon-dl-110-cartridge-and-headshell/

dynavector DV/Karat, broken cantilever, $130, usd + shipping, ...
can this be fixed/
https://www.hifido.co.jp/19-20758-10254-00.html?KW=&G=0308&P1=&P2=&A=10&N=&Y=&CT=0&M=0&LNG=e&OD=0&O=0&L=50&SD1=0&SD2=0&SD3=0

That AT wouldn’t interest me. It’s just too basic a cartridge for a $350-$450
rebuild IMO. I would rather buy the new AT that I linked to than take a chance on that.

IMO you want to look at late 80’s to early 90’s cartridges that fly under the radar
a bit in terms of name recognition that were high end, sold for around $800-$1000 then and have good pedigree. I’m partial to the Accuphase and Monster Alpha Genesis 1000 and 2000 as they have low internal impedances and match well with my phono stage. I rebuilt a couple of MC 20 Supers (and prior to that a few Denon 103R’s) and they were decent, but not in the league of the Accuphase.

I’m optimistic on the SAEC-I have a feeling it will slot somewhere in between the top of the line Hana and the Etsuros following a rebuild and I shouldn’t have much into it.

Some of the Ortofon Kontrapunkts might be worth a shot if you can find a body in
excellent condition for around $100. I’d possibly pay $100 for an Audio Technica Art 7 or 9 with a broken cantilever to take a chance on rebuilding one of those. Or a Denon DLS-1. Stuff like that.

Bear in mind you MUST confirm that both channels are functional when buying cartridges like this. Retipping with a new cantilever/stylus and suspension is one
thing, but attempting to repair broken coils, etc. can become very costly.

The Denon is not a good match with your phono stage-40 ohm internal impedance and fixed 100 ohm load on your phono stage. 

And I am not sure that the Dyna can be repaired. It appears to be a diamond
cantilever model and the cantilever is broken off quite deeply into the body. Others might know better and have an opinion. 

Elliott,

I “dipped my toe” into MC with the AT OC9XEN that hdm recommended. I’m really happy with it and recommend it for lower/mid level TTs. My TT is nothing special - Pro-ject Debut Carbon with the platter upgrade - and I was using an Ortofon 2M Blue that had good clarity and decent soundstage, but was harsh.

The OC9 made a big positive difference. Soundstage is larger with much greater depth, instrument/vocal imaging and separation are a big step up, and I gained a lot of warmth with slightly improved precision over the 2M Blue. The downside (if you can call it a downside) is that I now hear more rumble and noise from the Debut Carbon, so I’m looking to upgrade my TT after fitting the OC9. The cartridge improved the sound a lot, but also really brought out the TT’s limitations to my ears.

Best wishes!

Phasemonger

thanks everyone, learning bit by bit, I'll check out the suggestions.

Steve at VAS said nay on the Dynavector Karat

"It's best not to take a chance on the DV karat cartridges. More often then than not, there is more damage than what you expect".

specs of that Denon 301 seem right in my range

Full specs:
Format: moving coil type
Output voltage: 0.3mV (1kHz 5cm / s in the horizontal direction)
Playback frequency range: 20Hz ~ 60kHz (the graph in the Gramophone review on vinylengine showed it to be dead flat to within about ±1dB up to 45kHz, the maximum frequency they tested it to)
40Ω: output impedance
Matched load: 100Ω or more (transformer 40Ω)
Channel separation: 28dB or more (1kHz)
Channel balance: 1dB or less (1kHz)
Static compliance: 35 × 10 (to the power of) -6cm/dyne
Dynamic compliance: 13 × 10-6cm/dyne (100Hz record measurement)
Needle tip: 0.14 × 0.07 mm square solid diamond special ellipse needle
Proper stylus force: 1.4g ± 0.2g

good first step into MC?

At your budget the Denon DL-301 MKII is a good value. 

It might help if you gave a little more information about your system.  If it's not that resolving, you might not notice a big difference between the carts you have, if it's highly resolving, it might point out some of the shortcomings of the DL-301 MKII.

You should notice more detail and a smoother presentation and probably improved bass with the Denon compared to the Shure.  I have no experience with the AT440ml.

If you really want to get into MC, I'd suggest saving up and get a Hana SL, it's noticeably better than the Denon, but the Denon is a nice way to dip your feet in the water.

I was reading about that Hana, made me want to click 'add to cart', but not that much money 'yet'. not until I hear some magic beyond my beloved Shure/Jico SAS

I like the Denon DL-301II more as I read users comments all over the web, and it fits my desired output at .4mv and light tracking force range 1.2-1.6g

new via ebay, $300.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/274398854460

Somewhere up this thread I read that your phono stage has a fixed input resistance of 100 ohms . Then I read that the Dynavector 301 has an internal resistance of 40 ohms. If both of those numbers are correct, and if you absolutely cannot change the input resistance of your phono stage, then this match is a no go. you want the input impedance of the phono stage to be about 10 times that of the internal resistance of the cartridge. This is a basic rule that you should commit to memory. It can be “bent” at the cartridge to phono stage interface but not by that much.What you would hear in this case is a dull sound and an apparent loss of gain.

I'm not sure how to quantify the difference, but the Denon will be somewhat similar in some ways and better in others than what you have.  The Hana will be clearly better than the Denon or anything you currently have.  The Denon will be a somewhat lateral move and give you a taste of what MC is about, the Hana will be a noticeable upgrade (dependent on your equipment's resolving ability).

Op
Just my opinion but hdm suggestion of  AT OC9XEN is likely going to be hard to beat for performance, price and matching to your present phono with fixed 100ohm input.
I think the Denon is a big nono with your present phono and you would be most disappointed and put off through no fault of the cart itself.

To Clarify:

MC Preamp: I sent the Cambridge Duo back, I will be trying a new to me MC cartridge temporarily using Bill's SUT, (and hearing a few of his MC cartridges)

to see if I get over my long standing resistance to MC,

so no mc preamp exists, anything can be matched to an eventual cartridge selection.

I do prefer staying close to 1.5g tracking as a goal
...................................................

my system is very resolving, anything right or wrong will be revealed, I just switched McIntosh SS for Tube amp/preamp last year, and all new to me TT plinth/spinner/dual arms with much help from members here earlier this year. 

solid foundation

JVC Victor Large Dual Arm Plinth (7 layers, 70mm thick)
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649402362-victor-jvc-clp2d-rosewood-plinth-for-tt71-tt81-tt101-direct-drive-turntablerare/images/1737857/

JVC Victor TT81 Quartz Locked Direct Drive
http://www.thevintageknob.org/jvc-TT-81.html

rear arm, Acos Lustre GST 801, changable headshell,  now Grado mono, new to me MC will go here
https://reverb.com/item/32656865-acos-lustre-gst-801-tonearm-rare

Long Side Arm, 12.5" effective 'Blackbird' (cartridge fixed to arm, no headshell). shure V15vxmr body/jico boron/sas with brush here
http://newartvinyl.ru/board/detali_proigryvatelja/tonarm_black_bird12_5_carbon/7-1-0-41

both arms into McIntosh tube tuner/preamp's phono 1 and phono 2
https://positive-feedback.com/Issue77/vintage_mcintosh_experience.htm
I have a stronger grip on this than Charlton Heston had on his rifle.

Cayin A88T Integrated Tube Amp (mki for 16 ohm taps)
https://6moons.com/audioreviews/cayin/a88t.html

Speakers: custom rosewood enclosures, electrovoice drivers from 1958 Fisher President Console: 15" woofer 15w, a 37lb beast
https://reverb.com/item/2307415-electro-voice-model-15w-alnico-magnet-15-woofer-new-in-original-box-nos
horn mid and horn tweet t350
https://www.ebay.com/itm/114194791589
original electrovoice crossovers and rheostats for brilliance and presence
...............................................

Just finished new to me TT in my office, Mitsubishi Vertical Linear LT-5V. AT440ml now, will try MC here also
https://www.vintageaudioexchange.com/product/mitsubishi-turntable-model-lt-5v

IF I get hooked by MC, it will go in main system. For compliance, my instincts are the Acos arm will be best to try MC. 

..................................
It may seem I am being 'cheap' trying to stay below $400., but you have to admit, this MC world is full of ..., so a reasonably revealing start _____?

thanks again for help with this

To OP, 

Should you decide to get another phono stage, get one with adjustable impedance to give you more flexibility when it comes to choosing which MC cartridge. Reading your post last night, I was thinking of recommending the Hana low output, but it needs at least 400 ohms, whereas the Cambridge Duo has a fixed 100 ohms. The Hana would work with 100 ohms, but would not sound best. Happy listening. 

Just my thoughts.
Using a sut to try out MC carts is probably not the best way to start off unless you get VERY lucky.
Careful matching of sut to MC cart is a lot more involved than pot luck.
You would likely be better served with an inexpensive MC load adjustable Phonostage for your entry into the world of MC carts.

For example my Scheu SL will work loaded at 100 ohms but is MUCH more lively at 430ohms. 1000ohms is just a little too much for it to my ears.
But you need the flexibility to try and see for yourself IMHO.

A very easy recommendation would be the Hana EL....it fits all your parameters and sounds beautiful. Or buy the Hana SL with shibata Stylus......

Count my vote for the Denon DL-301II. That is what I use, and I like it very much. My previous favorite cartridge was a Shure M91ED, which is similar family to your V15vxmr. The DL-301II is higher compliance than most current MC’s and more similar to the Shures. So if you like your Shure, I think you will really like the DL-301II. 
I found the Denon to be much more focused, more 3D, really a big step up from my Shure even with a JICO SAS stylus. 
But loading is critical. I’ve found 476 ohms to be optimal. 
Good luck!!

I certainly don't doubt the ears of you guys who say you have zeroed in on THE correct load for your MC cartridge.  I have universally found that there IS a load resistance that begins to degrade the sound of an MC, usually one that is significantly less than 10X the internal resistance of the cartridge.  Above that too-low value and at 10X or higher, I hear very little difference in relation to load impedance presented by the phono stage, but if there is a difference, I tend to prefer 47K, in fact.  (I don't use 47K with every MC, just occasionally, for the very reason that I don't hear much difference once I get above 1000R.) This is using at one time or another my Atma-sphere MP1 (tubes), the J&R Phonolinepreamp (SS), or the Manley Steelhead (hybrid) with such cartridges as Koetsu Urushi, AT ART7, Dynavector 17D3, ZYX UNIverse low output version, and Ortofon MC2000 or MC7500.

Ortofon Quintet Red...great cartridge.

Oh boy, what a bottomless pit, my arse hurts!

resolved:

better double budget to $800.
tip to be advanced groove contact: LC, MR, SAS, Shibata
aluminum ok, boron preferred, I avoid more brittle than that.
mc boost to have adjustable loading
tracking force, still like closer to 1.5g, hard to get with MC I see now.

When I make a lot of effort, all this reading, jumping hither and thither, I want to GET something for my effort. I am doing my best to resist 'ADD TO CART'.

I gotta wait till Bill brings two of his MC to listen to here, then IN or OUT?

meanwhile,

MI Moving Iron, the story makes sooo much sense, yet the resultant specs don't seem to indicate achievement of superior channel separation/balance ..., and the prices, forget Soundsmith.
Perhaps Goldring, there is a UK supplier with a new 2400 for $500. Monster 6.5mv output, no mc boost needed.  

HOMC, today's research, better get a pillow to sit on.

OP
What you have to factor in with Soundsmith prices are there rebuild prices which are typically about 20% of purchase price to have like new cartridge returned to you if you wear it out, break it etc.

uber

yes, I read about that nice Soundsmith advantage, but 1st LC tip is Zephyr MKIII, $1,500. rebuild only $300. in future, 

MM/MC Phono Preamp

Mofi Studio Phono, $299.

adjustable gain, loading, a mono switch I would use in the office, no need downstairs, on sale

https://www.musicdirect.com/phono-preamps/Mobile-Fidelity-StudioPhono-Phono-Preamplifier-Cryogenically-Treated?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9IX4BRCcARIsAOD2OB1yUXgcEBsKqqQ4m9EfobhE_9e64AoOpLbzzMVvOpH67iby4mat4QwaAtqsEALw_wcB

accessible external dip switches, compact size, lots to like.

My friend has a Rowland Preamp he will give me on semi-permanent loan. He needs to find the interconnect cable to it’s separate power supply. Certainly not compact. He has many nice pieces of mine on semi-permanent loan. He will send me the model # later today. I think it is this one

https://skyfiaudio.com/products/jeff-rowland-coherence-1-preamp

jeff rowland's current Phono 'Conductor'

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2020/06/28/jeff-rowland-design-group-conductor-phono-preamplifier-review/

Is this a question?

iFi audio adjustable phono preamp $550.

also has 3 switchable eq curves

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1350008-REG/ifi_audio_0303012_micro_iphono2.html

lewm

I lost track (npi), is what a question?

I’ll be stopping by Elliots with my Denon AU-320 SUT, a stock Denon DL-103 with about 100 hours on it and a retipped DL-103S with a elliptical stylus fresh from Steve at VAS.
Right now the DL-103 is on my JVC QL-A7 deck and I’m running it through the AU-320 SUT into my Audio Research SP8 preamp into a 47K load phono input.
The DL-103 is a perfect match for the Denon SUT. The Denon SUT is designed for a 47K load.
We will also be trying out an active MC phono preamp that he is borrowing from his good friend.
Elliot has the perfect arm to try this all out on, his Acos Lustre 801!
Mounted on his massive Victor deck with the TT81 motor it should really show what these carts are capable of. I’m slowly working on something very similar myself.This should be a good time and a chance for us all to learn. I’m looking forward to it.
BillWojo

OP, 
Do you absolutely need a dual-input phono stage? If so, you can also look into the Pro-Ject Tube Box DS2; otherwise, the Tube Box DS. 

As an ex owner of the Denon au320 sut I can attest to it being superb bang for the buck.
I actually used to use it as my "dual input" for my single input phono as it has pass through ability for mm carts.
So I had two TT connect to it at same time,one MC, one mm.
Victor TT 81 and TT 71.

audite84

thanks, great find.  I no longer need a dual switchable unit, but I might in the future, and their single unit is an option.

that is a very well put together phono preamp with full range of loading adjustments from front controls, and optional wood sides.

https://www.audiolab.com/pro-ject-tube-box-ds2-tube-phono-preamplifier/?sku=PROTUBEBOXDS2SW&gclid=Cj0KCQjwl4v4BRDaARIsAFjATPlU_CXehkFukyUKH6KcQoCFCbG91R2hMTF0kQ9Mi4lUR12jgGzgcYkaAocsEALw_wcB

uberwaltz

that is a clever way to use it.

what range signal strength input is this Denon au320 compatible with?
..................................

If I go MC, main system, I will

either

need to boost just enough to go into McIntosh mx110z phono stage which I, and Bill think is wonderful. So, a SUT's range is important to learn about also.

or

separate phono stage for full boost/equalize and go into Cayin or Chase  line In.

Bill, uber, others

SUT's, 

using these, it is just a signal strength boost, eq/volume control happens in my mx110z phono input, 

does it mean, if noise avoided, SUT boost does not effect sound, it's the eq and further signal boost of the preamp that effects the sound?

or, do SUT's color the sound also?

Denon au-320 SUT specs seem good

https://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/etc/au-320-e.html

The au320 handled a zyx with 0.24mv output with ease and no additional noise that I could discern.

A SUT is nothing but a transformer. As such it is liable to faults associated with transformers used at the interface between any two stages. Most commonly an effect upon bass and extreme treble response in the form of attenuation or loss of detail. There’s no free lunch. Do some reading. 
The Denon transformers are “good”, but are the specs correct for your cartridge and your phono stage?

HOMC

To save cost of pre-preamp, and extra unit in system, I hopped around looking at HOMC. Perhaps havs VAS change tip of a used one.

I generally found, the channel separation is lessened in HOMC, with a few exceptions.

i.e. this Dynavector DV-20a type 2, 3.6mv, sep only 20db

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynavector-Systems-Ltd-DV-20A-Type-2-high-output-Moving-Coil-MC-Cartridge-tested/303342229103

The Hana SH, shibata/alum 2.0mv, sep 28db seems like the highest sep in my budget. A SUT would get that up to go into mx110z phono eq

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hana-SH-High-Output-Moving-Coil-MC-Shibata-Phono-Cartridge-Authorized-Dealer/264679147741

I found the cool looking Sony XL-MC series, they have high sep 30db, tight bal 1.5db, 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-Altmark-Moving-Coil-Cartridge-XL-MC1/254641741592

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-XL-MC-3-Cartridge-With-FR-Headshell-In-Excellent-Condition/333437737354

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-XL-MC3-MC-Cartridge/254246960065

this rare xl-mc7, shibata/boron went for $995. incl fees and del from Japan
http://yahoo.aleado.com/lot?auctionID=t735366377#enlargeimg

................................
1. any comments about HOMC separation 

2. any comments about Sony XL-MC series?

chackster, everyone

thanks chackster for your help,

now that I have upped my budget, the Audio-Technica AT-ART2000MC is a choice

this one, seller says suspension is 'tight' 

https://www.ukaudiomart.com/details/649382460-audiotechnica-atart2000mc-cartridge-in-perfect-working-order/

is dried out suspension an issue for old cartridges/

advice?

Elliot, Basically this thread consists of you naming products you saw on the internet after suggestions were made by Chakster and others, with not much comment about whether you really want to buy it or can afford it or fit it into your system.  That is what I meant when I wrote, "Is this a question?"  My post came right after you posted a URL for a Jeff Rowland phono stage that your friend was going to give to you on longterm loan.  If that happened, what more do you need?  If you were to take possession of the Rowland, you would not be needing any SUT OR a pre-preamp.  So what is all this about?  "Channel separation" and "channel balance" are not a way to judge whether you will like the sound of a stereo cartridge.  And my general advice to you is not to buy a "vintage" phono cartridge, because aging, even in the box, does affect cartridge suspensions.  Chakster is a very experienced collector; he knows what he is doing and can get away with buying old cartridges.  I've done it too.  But I have also been "stiffed" once or twice.  I don't think you want to start out with a major disappointment.

My opinion is that HOMC cartridges are usually inferior to LOMC cartridges, MM cartridges, and MI cartridges.  HOMC is at the bottom of my totem pole.  But that is merely my opinion.  You need a phono stage, preferably one that has both MC (high gain) and MM (low gain) phono inputs, so you can play around with cartridges of different types until you find out what you like in your system.  Or of course you can use an MM stage plus or minus a SUT, to the same end.

thanks @lewm 

As I emailed to Elliott I wouldn't buy from the sellers with lower than 99% feedback score on ebay, especially if they can't even provide a high resolution image of the stylus tip. Also I wouldn't buy a used cartridge with stiff suspension. Wait for a perfect sample or just don't buy it. I remember i sold my ART2000 for about $650 but it was like new in the box with documents in mint condition, lightly used. I sold it after I bought something else (more expensive). 

I bought NOS Dynavector 23RS (MicroReach) in the box from ebay for about $450. 

Used cartridge must be perfect or it's not worth the money.  

lewm, chackster, thanks for the help.

lewm,

I am in a learning stage, there is a point, and you and others have been generous with your advice, so I link items to keep learning, possibly buy. Anything I learn helps me with the next thing I read about.

If two cartridges are highly recommended, I will go with better separation/balance specs, yes it has to sound musical/involving, but good separation makes a difference, one of the true advantages of reel to reel.

Luckily, I am 1/2 hr away from Steve at VAS, 1-1/2 hr away from Bill, and Bill knows Steve well, so I can buy a problem and have it fixed.

always looking for comments/advice about things I find that are interesting, or raise questions. I just got a lot of answers/advice in 1 response from you and 1 from chackster.

I am warming up to the idea of a SUT into my mx110z phono preamp rather than a separate phono preamp, as I love the tube phono in the mx110z, and it has two inputs. I would leave the shure/sas/boron on the long side arm, and put the MC ___? on the rear Acos. Then, when I play mono, off comes the mc, on goes the grado mono. Acos is a snap to re calibrate and the easiest VTA on the fly I have ever seen.

I am hoping someone has some experience with the Sony xl-mc series, just to know about them. Onlt thing I read is one person said his was a poor tracker.

As for dry suspension, chackster's answer fits my suspicion about old drying out. I ask Steve at VAS if he could work on a specific model cartridge I find tempting, before I write to the seller. He said avoid Dynavector Karat, often much wrong inside, and that he could replace suspension of the stiff AT ART 2000mc. 

So, if Chackster thinks the AT ART 2000MC is a worthy contender, combined with very good separation, and tight balance, advanced shaft/tip, Steve to fix it, it then comes down to price. 

And, if vintage suspensions dry out, maybe I want a decent price of one needing a new suspension rather than one as old but 'still good'.

I am not going in search of the holy grail, just trying to get and be smart with help here before I try something.