Marantz SA-10 Vs Esoteric K-05Xs

@milpai yes synergy is key! One other important factor to consider is one’s reference point. 

For anyone who owns (or has listened to) the newer Esoteric XD models (K-05XD/K-03XD) how does their sound compare to the previous generation XS models, since they are now using their own in-house DAC Chip and design.

@audphile1 ,

I am completely with you when you say that you don't mean to rain down on anyone's parade. All I was trying to say that sometimes certain products do not work in our own systems when most users are reporting gains in their system. In my case it was a power accessory filter. 90% of the folks here were reporting amazing gains when they added multiple such accessory in their system. If only 1 piece was added to my system, it made a big noticeable positive difference. But unfortunately, when I added more than one of that accessory, it ruined the sound. I did report as such here and then another gentleman reported that he experienced the same.

So you did report that the SA-10 did not work in your system and everyone should respect that because you genuinely reported what you experienced. At least folks have a reference of cases where some component might or might not work. I have mentioned it before and will say it again - I rely more on forums and user experiences rather than paid reviewers to make my buying choice. Many times we do not have options to go out and hear a component and in such cases I have found that user recommendations are super helpful. I do take recommendations only from folks who have been on any site for a while and not just a day or month.

@milpai nice and well thought out system you have there. If you want to try the SA-10 like I said if you find a killer deal on it you can flip it if you don’t like it. Use your oppo until you can try luxman or esoteric is what I’d recommend. I didn’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade here but I did want to offer my thoughts on the SA-10 based on the experience I had with it. 

@audphile1 I had read that Luxman is high quality, not sure how they compare with the Esoteric K-07XS or Marantz SA-10. But I looked at the D-06u model and it appears you can only find used ones from 2014-2018 from Japan at 100v. Currently no US 120v ones are on sale on here on eBay.

@audphile1 ,

I do not own this player.

@fauguy no you do not “have to” use i2s. My Aurender N200 into PS Audio DSD via USB comfortably beat SA10 playing high res from Qobuz or Tidal and DSD files from my local library on SSD. If you have to spin a physical SACD just get a transport with I2s out or a good SACD player like one of the Luxman units. Marantz in my opinion is just not good. By the way PS Audio DSD MkI is around $1200-$1400 now used without network card. Hard to beat for the money

Thanks to everyone for the information.

@goose I had read the other Esoteric players had a bit of an exaggerated high-end , but was fixed on the newer XD models since they are using their own house made DAC (not from AKM). But the XD models starting at the K-05XD at around $10K is far from by price range, and there is no 07XD. That's why I was looking at the previous generation XS (K-07XS/K-05XS). My system is fairly revealing. The 804S speakers (not diamond) are about 12-14 years old, so they are fully broken in and I don't have any ear fatigue when using the Oppo BDP-95 as by disc player. But I've been wanting "better sound" for my large collection of standard CD and couple dozen SACD (99% classical/orchestral).

 

@jayctoy I wasn't aware that Marantz had a common issue with the laser assembly going bad after a couple years. How do you locate an original laser assembly? Is the player easy to replace the part?

 

@phillyb Thank you for the information about your SA-10. I had read though the PDF manual a few weeks ago, and saw mention about the different settings (filter, dither, etc) but the explanations were slightly lacking and figured it would have to be heard to tell the difference. Since you had a much earlier Esoteric player, have you listened to the models since then (X, XS, XD)?

@audphile1 I had looked at PS Audio and everything thing make is separate, the Transport and DAC have to use I2S over HDMI connection for SACD DSD playback. Both units are pushing $8-10K from what I saw.

 

 

@milpai could be.
If it works for you, that’s great! 

I decided to go away from disc players, in general in 2020. I used to own a Marantz SA-8260 way back in 2005. The laser is a big issue in Marantz players. I had considered getting a SA10 and use it as a DAC, just in case I needed to play a disc once in a while. But I found that I did not spin a single disc from July 2020 till date. So I decided to go with a stand alone DAC.

@audphile1 , I have not read a single bad or ‘just ok’ review of the SA-10 player. It might just be that, it did not suite your system or preference.

I don’t get the love for SA-10. I owned it for about a month. Yeah it’s built extremely well, feels hefty and has a buttery smooth operation. But to me it just doesn’t sound right. Engaging those filters outside of a default setting makes it even worse. On top of it all it has audibly high noise floor. I pretty much hated it. PS Audio DSD MkI DAC that replaced it at half the price of a used SA-10 was a huge improvement. 
Unless you find a killer deal used and need to check this off your bucket list, I would just skip it

I have fully enjoyed my Marantz SA-10 SACD player, it is very refined. It can sound as good as the disc played, for instance, a disc recorded with tube sounds that were real, full sounding, and body to the music, then today's over-compressed, over-produced crap sounds that way. This replaced my Esoteric K01 and I never looked back or missed the K-o1 and that was a really fine player.  Key to any great SACD player is the power cord used, and you're playing the acoustics of your room. SA10 is a fine player and an overall champ that is also affordable and well-built. I use Dithere 1 setting, filter 3-1. The headphone amp is off, and gain is set to medium and that is important it kicks the sound up a notch and I found this by trying it one day, phase normal (based on my XLR gear pin configuration). Compared to many much more expensive players the Marantz can stand up to them all in sound quality. 

Goose is right. I bought my marantz SA 10 open box paid maybe close to 6k.After 3 yrs and 2 months laser gave up.Marants won’t repair it after warranty.if you don’t need balance Marantz Ruby is a good choice get it brand new. If you decide Marantz used buy extra laser in Georgia $50 they are original to be safe.

@fauguy If your system is perhaps slightly on the more resolving or bright side I would go with the Marantz.  The earlier Esoterics could be tipped up in the upper frequencies until they issued the XD series.  I owned the the Modwright Marantz SA8005 and now the Esoteric K-03XD.  This is an apples to oranges comparison but I heard enough good things from the Marantz line to figure out the SA-10 would be a good choice.  Just my two cents.

So this is interesting.

Currently there is a Marantz SA-10 in black (that would match my other black components) on here listed at $3500. Says that it is a store display demo unit.

(Over on Music Direct they now have the SA-10 New discounted to $5200, which is out of my budget).

And over on eBay there is a Esoteric K-07XS (in silver) listed for $3300.

So between a Marantz SA-10 demo unit and used Esoteric K-07XS, both at the same price, I'm not sure which would be the better sounding unit in my system (B&W 804 speakers, MIT Cables) since I can't find any dealers in my area that still have the SA-10 or Esoteric XS series units on display.

 

 

I did see one post of a person from 2018 that had bought a Esoteric K-07X and the switching power supply developed a hum from the unit itself. They send it in for repair, but still has the issue, so had to pay the pri difference for the K-05K that has the Toroidal power supply and no hum. But this is the only post I can find on line about somone with this issue. I was looking for the newer K-07XS model, but it also uses a switching power supply. For the price, I would think Esoteric would have a Toroidal power supply in all their players.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/38554-noisy-esoteric-k07x-dac/

https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marsa10s1-rb/marantz-sa10-sacd-player-black/1.html

@fauguy , keep your eye on them, because they occasionally have open box or factory refurb specials at significant discounts and still with the 60 day audition. (Mine was a "factory refurb for 2k off of list.) I think there is a way to sign up on MD for their emails that advertise when they have those sales.

@immatthewj I looked at Music Direct, and for example, the Marantz SA-10 they show it for $7500 and with the 60 day. Other SACD players they have are Denon and McIntosh. But all are brand new, so out of by budget. That's why I was looking on sites such as eBay and Audiogon and others, to find players at a discount.

I agree that it would be best to try the Marantz SA-10 and Esoteric players before buying (new or used). But there are only a small handful of Marantz dealers in South FL and haven't found one yet that as the SA-10 on display that I could listen to. 

@fauguy  , have you considered Music Direct?  I believe they still sell them (that's where I got mine) and they do offer free shipping to you with a 60 day audition period.  (I assume if one decides to send something back that Music Direct does not pay the freight for shipping on that end of the deal.)

I understand @fauguy , my situation is much worse than yours. I’d go listen even if they don’t have the models you’re interested in. My guess is that the two brands have a different house sound and that you would prefer one over the other. 

That the room and equipment that you listen to at a dealer are very different from what you have at home doesn't help either.

@goose @tomcy6 I spent some time on the Esoteric site and found the fillings difference between the K-07xs/05xs/03xs models.

The K-07xs uses two AKM AK4493 DAC chips for L and R in a single PCB board, and the units  power supply is a single switched power supply, 

The K-05xs uses two AKM AK4493 DAC Chips but each is on its own separate PCB, and the units power supply is a  toroidal power supply.

The K-03xs uses two newer AKM AK4497 DAC Chips each on its own separate PCB, also uses 2 toroidal power supplies - one for the Analog circuitry and one for the Dgital circuitry.

 

So there are some design differences between them. But finding used ones online is challenging (within the US 120v and not from Japan 100v model). Have one come across the K-07XS pre-owned so far.

 

I agree that it would be best to try the Marantz SA-10 and Esoteric players before buying (new or used). But there are only a small handful of Marantz dealers in South FL and haven't found one yet that as the SA-10 on display that I could listen to. And Esoteric only has 1 dealer in South FL.

@fauguy , Yes the upconversion settings do apply to CDs and I would guess, but the manual doesn't say it, they would apply to streamed PCM also.  There appears to be only one digital filter.

I agree with @goose, these are probably not settings that you will change a lot.  You'll probably find one setting you like and leave it, if you can hear much of a difference at all.

Really the way to decide between the players is to listen to them and buy the one you like best.

@fauguy the PCM upconversion cannot be done via the remote only via the mode button on the unit itself so "on the fly" changes aren't possible.  For now I have settled on the 2Fs setting on PCM.  On my player there are 3 filter settings for DSD (SACD) playback.  The cutoff frequency becomes progressively lower from F1 to F2 to F3.  Mine is set on F2.  I think one could get hung up on all the oversampling and filter stuff.  The player sounds wonderful with the native settings.  The new model 10 from Marantz looks interesting and it would be interesting to compare it to my K-03XD which new was discounted to 12K from my dealer. 

   

@regafan I had seen the newer Marantz Model 10 in several videos and it does look quite nice, but I believe the price is between $12-15K for it.

The SA-10 has been replaced by the new Model 10 SA-CD player. Coming in at 75-76 pounds this is a very large and heavy unit. The Model 10 is about half again more expensive  than the SA-10 it is replacing.

@goose @tomcy6

Since it says the upconversion upsample mode is available for each input (except that a SACD is passed through staying at DSD) does it allow for these settings on normal CD playback? (Picture below).

This is from the K-05XS and K-07XS manual download PDF about upconversion.

It says it available by pressing the Mode button on the front of the unit, but it appears there isn't a Model button on the remote. So you can only make these settings on the unit itself? That's a bit inconvenient.

 

For filtering, it says

Digital filter setting during DSD playback.

DSDF>*** OFF No digital filter is used . ON A digital filter is used .

So it looks like there is only 1 filter available (on). Some players give multiple filters (3-6)

 

Here is what the K-03XS manual says about upsampling:

Upconversion setting UPC>***

This setting can be made for each input.

During Super Audio CD playback, the DSD signal is sent as is to the D/A converter without being upconverted.

ORG - (original) The input signal is sent as is to the D/A converter without being upconverted.

2Fs - 32kHz, 44.1kHz and 48kHz sources are upconverted to double values of 64 kHz, 88.2 kHz and 96 kHz, respectively, and then sent to the D/A converter.

4Fs - 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz and 96kHz sources are upconverted to double or quadruple values of 128 kHz, 176.4 kHz or 192 kHz and then sent to the D/A converter.

8Fs - 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz and 192kHz sources are upconverted to double, quadruple or octuple values of 256 kHz, 352.8 kHz or 384 kHz and then sent to the D/A converter.

16Fs - 32kHz, 44.1kHz, 48kHz, 88.2kHz, 96kHz, 176.4kHz, 192kHz, 352.8kHz and 384kHz sources are upconverted 16, 8, 4 or 2 times to 512 kHz, 705.6 kHz or 768 kHz and then sent to the D/A converter.

DSD - The signal is converted to DSD digital format, and then sent to the D/A converter

So it appears you can not upsample at all, or you can upsample from 2X all the way up to 16X or DSD for each output.

FWIW, I have the Marantz SA-10 (purchased new), and it has been a great disc spinner and transport when I want to output a digital signal. It has mated well with an LTA Microzotl Pre (Level 2), Luxman C900u, and my current NAD M66. Both are highly resolving pre-amps—I don’t feel that the Marantz is leaving much, if anything, on the table in terms of resolution when compared to the best. When comparing the analog and digital outputs, information is the same, just a small difference in presentation between the internal DAC and an external one.

I enjoy both SACD (mostly classical) and regular CD (all genres) on the SA-10 and have no regrets with the purchase. I expect it to be in my system for a long time.

@goose thank you for the information. The new XD models by Esoteric look to use their own in-house DAC that now converts everything to DSD 512. The previous gen XS units used AKM brand DACs and gave the option on CD to not upsample or to go to higher resolution PCM or DSD512. This is that I gathered from reading the user manuals and specs on reviews. The Matantz SA-10 dose a PCM to DSD upsample on all discs as well. But I’m sure they would have a different sound.

Below were the models I was interested in (pre-owned)

Marantz SA-10 

Esoteric K-07XS, K-05XS, K-03XS

Technics SL-G700

I had a Marantz modifed SACd player by Modwright and now own an Esoteric K-03xd player and yes is it is better than the Marantz. The difference is in that the resolution is more defined, better bass and the instrument placement is more defined without any hint of digital strain or harshness .

Besides the Marantz SA-10 and the Esoteric XS models (not the newer XD), the other player on my list was the Technics SL-G700 as they are going for $1800 pre-owned. I've read good things about that player with both CD and SACD playback, and not being "overly warm" like Marantz.

Haven't tried these exact players. But my experience with Marantz SA-series players had them sounding a little warm, sort of on the musical side, not dull but just a little toned down on the top end. Esoteric seemed much more lit up which is either good or bad depending on the rest of the system. 

I could see someone calling the Esoteric players "bright" or "thin". I could also see someone calling the Marantz SA models "too warm" or "overly thick". Both might be right. 

The newest Esoteric is using a different DAC design and I haven't heard those yet. So this might not even be accurate any longer.  

Unfortunately I can't find a place in South FL that has the Marantz SA-10 or any Esoteric on display to demo. It's a same. These players are pricey and almost impossible to listen to before buying.

milpai

T+A makes very fine gear.  Keep me posted if you decide to purchase the DAC 200.

 

Happy Listening!

fauguy

Keep me posted as you audition the Marantz SA-10 vs. Esoteric K Series. At this level, these are true Reference players.

 

Happy Listening!

I have dropped the idea of a disc player. I am looking forward to getting a T+A DAC 200 soon. I am currently using the Oppo UDP-205 purely in DAC mode since July 2020, feeding DSD 256 though Foobar. I have heard that the T+A performs on a completely differently level using DSD stream. HQPlayer is something that I might explore next.

I've been using an Oppo BDP-95 for the past 10 years with CDs, SACD, Blu Ray audio and Blue Ray movies. But I've been looking to get a dedicated SACD/CD player.

A few models on my list are the Marantz SA-10, Esoteric K-07XS and K-05XS, Technics SL-G700.

The think I like about the Marantz and the newer Esoteric is that the will convert CD PCM to DSD.

 

What I'd like to know a bit more is the sound difference between the Matantz SA-10 and the Esoteric K-07XS or K-05XS, since they are all around the same price for pre-owned.

I know this is an old thread but in case anyone is still comparing an Esoteric with Marantz. I have owned both brands, and I still have an Esoteric specificallly a UX-3SE. Any Marantz I tried in my home was stomped into the ground by my Esoteric and that includes a Marantz KI Ruby. And where did someone come up with Esoteric being unreliable? Marantz yes, Esoteric no. I had Marantz players have lasers fail after a few years and then have Marantz tell me that there are no laser assemblies made for that model anymore? After three years? Esoteric has a wonderful repair center in LA that can repair any Esoteric model. 
Pricey for Esoteric? Yes, but like a well built auto the Esoteric performs as designed, and does so for a long time.
No competiton - Esoteric is the way to go if one can afford it...

Over the years, I auditioned an Esoteric DV-60. I did not enjoy the CD filters? The SACD playback was excellent. Cables and Cords were Wireworld Silver Electra 7 (PC) on the DV-60. Silent Source cables/cords on Pass Labs gear. TAD-1 loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

I owned the K-01 a wonderful CD player, had massive attack and dynamics that put vinyl to shame. Loved it. Got ill so I sold the K-01, and the only player I considered was the Marantz SA-10S1. I’ve not looked back with regret. The K-01 still has more massive in the attack, but the Marantz reproduce the music with a flair, a class to it, does not throw things at you it just there to enjoy the performance. 20K vs. 7K in pricing no contest sound-wise, perhaps weight-wise 40 lbs. vs 80 lbs. both are a bit different but both oh so good. Depending on one’s system and gear you might prefer one over the other. I think in SACD discs the Marantz might edge the K-01. The K-01 power supply is much larger which is why it sounds more massive than it should for 20K. But the Marantz with that Mastering Engine design makes USB to CD sound so natural and real. 

I had 2 Marantz CD players, the SA8001 and SA8005, both sounded like mid-fi and the controls on both were cheesy and small.  I bought an Esoteric UX3 in 2012 and it is my last SACD player. 

Trebor33 , the unit that gave up on me is SA 10. Read more post here and see what particular model , that works without issue.Like I said esoteric sacd are superb when there is no issue.Before you buy find out if the model you will buy has available authorize repair shop in your country, it will cost you a lot , to send it back to Japan.

SA10 is proving hard to come by at the moment, here in UK at least.

When esoteric sacd works they are hard to beat, I still miss my SA 10, for their price they should be flawless.

I had the opportunity to hear in the dealer's setup in Singapore a NAIM CD555 and Esoteric K-01XS, and the CD555 easily bested the Esoteric. I then had another different chance to hear a long time owner of the CD555 who replaced his CD555 with one SA10, and then actually dumped the 555 altogether and went in for another SA10 for his second home. At another friend's house, I heard the Esoteric X-05 for many years, and when he replaced it with the SA10, the X-05 was quite fresh in my mind and I could see it was sensational, in detail, richness, tonality and exciting pace. Good as the X-05 had been, the SA10 lifted the friend to a greater level of ecstasy. All this was enough for me. I snagged a SA10, and it has proved to be a wonder, every bit. Very versatile, in terms of type of music, and no weaknesses. A 128GB usb stick houses a bunch of hi res files, so no need for PC audio, and when I play redbook, they sound quite magnificent. So though a series of steps, chained together, i had reached a conclusion which has proved correct.

Are they known to be unreliable then? Been offered a K-05XS but if reliability is an issue I'll pass.

I like esoteric product , admittedly good, but reliability and repair is my concern.

@trebor33,I don't think in future I will go with a disc spinner. I made several changes in my system and am at a point I am pretty happy with the setup. I am also using the UDP-205 exclusively as a DAC for the past several months and have not played a disc. All my CD/SACDs have been ripped as FLAC/DSF files and I have an old laptop exclusively serving as the music player. I use Foobar and am pretty happy with the setup. Eventually I will replace the Oppo with a DAC - this will take some time though.